An Ethical Question (1 Viewer)

[Mike Veroukis]

That is the exception not the norm, IMHO.

Perhaps I'm lucky to live in the city that I do. Huh? I can't believe I just said that about Winnipeg. No, let me rephrase, I think it just takes a while to build a rapport but if you're serious about audio equipment it pays to do so. Who knows, maybe the salesman I deal with just likes me for some reason, who knows. But I buy everything from him, speakers, receivers, wires and plugs, you name it. And if he's not in the store when I go there I'll come back another day when he is. He gives me good deals for my loyalty, it's as simple as that. He even throws in free extended warranty some times!!! And in case you're wondering, I never see this guy outside business hours, we're not friends or anything.

There's always some shops that refuse to go down no matter what, and generally I avoid those. I know the markup on this stuff is very high and I feel robbed if they don't budge a little.

But at any rate, buying local is more then just what price you'll pay. When I buy stuff I can take it home right away and hook it up. I have 30 days to return it if I don't like it. If there's a blemish all I have to do is drive back to the shop and replace it with another. So in keeping with this thread, I think there's lots to be gained by buying local.

- Mike

 

[MikeAlletto]

You can never negotiate prices on line, and quite often you lose out on warranty.

I negotiate prices online all the time. Send out emails to 3 or 4 authorized vendors asking them their prices. When you get them focus on one or 2 of them and play them against each other. A friend of mine just bought a new Sony Vega tv and progressive dvd player doing just this. Worked out great and a whole lot cheaper that he would be able to find it anywhere local. And since they were authorized dealers all warranties are there.

I would love to buy local, but I don't trust any of them. I walk into a store and they either don't help me or look at me as a second class citizen, so forget that. I'll use them for info and listening and time and then walk right out of there and buy it somewhere else. So does anyone knows any good people to deal with in Austin that are more concerned with customer service and getting the customer a good deal instead of trying to find every way possible to take as much money as they can from customer?

 

[Matt Jesty]

I would love to buy local, but I don't trust any of them. I walk into a store and they either don't help me or look at me as a second class citizen, so forget that. I'll use them for info and listening
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NICE RATIONALIZATION...DON'T WORRY ,YOU'LL SHOW THEM BY RUNNING THEM OUT OF BUISNESS (THEM AND THEIR SNOOTY ATTITUDES)! Oh,I HOPE you didn't need any more info or listening.......

 

[MikeAlletto]

DON'T WORRY ,YOU'LL SHOW THEM BY RUNNING THEM OUT OF BUISNESS

Oh its my fault now that I don't trust any of the local dealers to not rob me? Trust in a local dealer of anything is earned, they don't automatically get it.

 

[Mike Veroukis]

I would love to buy local, but I don't trust any of them. I walk into a store and they either don't help me or look at me as a second class citizen, so forget that.

Well, if they really are snobby then good for you. I wouldn't deal with anyone who seemed snobby or tried to put some high pressure sales tactics on me. I typically just walk right out the door when that starts. But I find that's not the norm and most salesmen do a good job. Btw, you should always try to deal with either the owner or top sales guy if you can, that usually works best.
- Mike

 

[Scott Oliver]

Mike,
What dealers here in Austin have you visited?

Just curious?

 

[Patrick TX]

Well, I certainly HAVE visited some dealers in Austin. Needless to say, I was unimpressed. I don't really want to get into naming them, but I can't stand the 3 I went to near Anderson & Burnet Rd.

 

[MikeAlletto]

I'm not going to name them either, but the location that Patrick stated are where 2 of them that I went to are at. There aren't many choices in Austin, but Scott if you know a particular salesman in Austin I'll be more than willing to give them a shot (won't be till next year when I'm ready to upgrade everything after I've bought a house though).

 

[Matt Jesty]

Trust in a local dealer of anything is earned, they don't automatically get it.
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INDEED NOT...............I never want people to do buis where they're not comfortable...ask yourself some tough ,soul-searching questions however ...
1.)are you seeking out retailers/salespeople who are clueless to satisfy yourself that you know more than they, don't need their advice, and would feel stupid purchasing from them?
2.) Do you peruse their store often ,always stating that "you don't need any help, I'm quite familiar with the gear, thank you".....?
3.)Do you carry internet print-outs and price quotes?
4.)Is your first question ,"do you all match internet prices or randomly discount to people who have not purchased from you before?"
5.)have you brought in gear for service when you never have purchased from them before...
6.) do you come in as soon as a new product is introduced and ask for literature on it and if you can borrow it for a few days.....
7.)Do you engage salesmen in conversation only to spout rhetoric like "chroma-bug, red-push, honking horns, harsh metal tweeters, overly-laid-back,-blanket-over-'em-soft-domes" ?
8.)Do you return 3/4 of everything ever purchased from thae establishment?
9.) Do you always talk to 3 differant commisioned salespersons and then ask to speak to the manager to try and get the best price?
10.)Do you ask how the switching system works so you can play in the room alone for a while?
11.) Do you make salespeople A/B/C/D every speaker in the store while you refuse to honestly answer the questions they're asking in order to narrow down the choices?
12.)ARE YOU HONEST WITH THE SALESPEOPLE ABOUT YOUR NEEDS AND INTENTIONS?
13.)DO YOU vacate a sound room when a salesperson brings in a customer who may be purchasing from that establishment?
.............many more later when I have time.......

I have a local "younger adult" who came in one day about 2 years ago and told me that he had bought some products on-line and was quite happy with their performance, but had a few questions and wanted to know if I'd mind answering them even though there was nothing that he was going to buiy right then.....I said that he was kind enough to save me from hooking up a cdr on this sunny wed. afternoon and I would much rather talk to him....He probably came in about twice a month for the next year, always on a slow afternnon (he works in the hospitality trade),before he bought anything from me ...to date he has spent about $4,300 with me and I have beeen to his house 3 times to "dial-in" his system.....Honesty and congeniality are wonderful traits to share.....

 

[Robert_Gaither]

Here in Wichita (we have 3 real home audio dealers and one who sort of added to car audio sound store) every dealer I tried dealing with either wanted the mfg suggested retail price or higher and have always refused to barter (I told them that I was willing to pay what was advertised online plus triple shipping cost which I think is a good starting point). I know the Sony ES dealer has no exchange, returns, or loaners in the event the item purchased doesn't hold up (I asked about this to see what type of service I might get in the event of a problem based on some of the reviews read at AR and turnaround of a worked on product). For the most part I hope all of the local dealers here (and Kiefs in KC, he's a rude sob) go out of business and someone else comes in and replace them. The funny part is that most of the online dealers (SVS, HSU, Outlaw, etc) seem to send a replacement and a RMA and only down time is the time you make your phone call (or email) and 48 hours later you're listening once again.

I question what is the "service" when most questions can be answered at most forum sites (I hate to say it but it seems fellow hobbists are far more knowledgeable) that I would be paying for when most of these dealers are very biases toward their products and may only give me advice to their own benefit.

 

[Matt Jesty]

(I hate to say it but it seems fellow hobbists are far more knowledgeable) that I would be paying for when most of these dealers are very biases toward their products and may only give me advice to their own benefit.
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If you think that people here are "neccesarily" telling the truth and not e-marketing, or at least biased, then I'm an 18 year old cheerleader who likes 40 year old men.....
Also, while I understand that things may be differant regionally (ie; Canada), can you say with much confidence that most of the posters here have had as much "hands-on experiance" and developed as much system design knowledge as the "somewhat above average" mid-fi salesman?...

 

[HowardGjr]

Interesting thread...Here's my take.

Company's are in business to increase shareholder (or owner) wealth. To accomplish this goal, a company will select a set of strategies based on its strengths and weaknesses, the opportunities that are available and the threats it perceives in the market. Because companies differ in structure, capital and viewpoint, some companies offer extensive services while others offer few services. In general, the companies that can establish sustained competitive advantage are successful. Those that cannot go out of business.

Most local audio stores believe it to be in their best interest to offer auditions, advice etc. A company doesn't perform this service for altruistic reasons. Instead, its management thinks this strategy will provide them the highest return for the company's investors. They offset this service by charging a higher price than would otherwise necessary.

On the other hand, online (direct) companies generally attempt to compete mostly on price. Since the local audio store is not attempting to further interests other than it's own, I do not believe that it's unethical to audition at the store and buy similar products used online.

Now, let's address the macro-economic micro-economic problem
inherent in this debate. By buying stuff online at the best price while auditioning stuff in a local shop, I threaten the local shops ability to provide the "free" service in the future. According to this argument, all B&M local stores will eventually be gobbled up and there won't be anyplace to audition anymore. Without the ability for patrons to audition, high end A/V dies a horrible death. Therefore, what is in my best interest as an individual is not in the best interest of the group.

In my opinion, this will not happen. If the direct market model is proven superior to the point where local stores disappear, direct companies will need to address auditions -- perhaps with 30 day home evaluations etc. On the other hand, direct marketers may just put more price pressure on local audio stores. In this case, we would likely see consolidation and "specialty superstore" like Best Buy primarily dedicated to the high end (Might already be happening with Tweeter).

In summary, choosing one level of service vs. another doesn't strike me as an important question from a ethical perspective. After reading the thread, I perceive that the group that enjoys the services that local audio stores provide are unhappy that other people are abandoning that purchase method. From the "local store" advocates perspective this makes sense, they like local stores and if too many people abandon them, they might go away. If nothing else, local store buyers will no longer have the people that would have bought in the local store but now are buying online subsidizing the costs of the "free" auditioning service.

 

[Matt Jesty]

How much more cansolidation can there be?
Can retailers actually shave the after tax profits of @3% even more?
Can the internet buis. model survive without retail"listening stations"?
If it can will we all wind up with e-marketed, chinese ,white-van-internet-site schlock?

 

[Mike Veroukis]

If the direct market model is proven superior to the point where local stores disappear, direct companies will need to address auditions -- perhaps with 30 day home evaluations etc.

I don't see it. I can walk into a dealership and A/B audition everything in the store in one day. I don't think my Visa credit is big enough for me to buy a bunch of amps and speakers and somehow arrange them to all show up at my house at around the same time. That's kookoo!

And if buying online is so wonderful and auditioning at the dealership is so unnecessary, then why do so many people go audition at the dealership, ask questions and THEN go buy online?

Personally I refuse to buy stuff like that online. I gotta see it, touch it and hear it before I'll even consider buying it. So basically what I'm saying is no Outlaw or SVS for me unless they decide to sell them at dealerships. I don't care that so many other's like them, when it comes to buying equipment the only opinion that counts is mine, and if I can't here it I won't waste my time with it.

- Mike

 

[Tom Brennan]

Well I don't give a damn about dealers or whether they stay in business or not.
The only gear I've bought recently from a speciality dealer were 3 low-powered ASL tube amps that I didn't even bother auditioning because the dealer didn't have speakers suitable for auditioning such amps and every speaker in the store sounds like Hell anyway even with Big-Hog SS amps. I could have bought these amps mail-order or online as easily. In the past year I've bought 3 other amplifiers as well; one from Parts Express, one at a swap-meet and one at a shop that fixes vintage tube gear.
In the last month I've made several other AV purchases; one from a private party, two from mail-order prosound dealers and one from Circuit City. Speciality AV and audio dealers don't fit into my scheme at all.
www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

 

[Scott Oliver]

Mike and Patrick,
I can think of four dealers in that general vicinity and they are all my least favorite places in town that I have chosen not to patronize. I have a post in the archives giving my thoughts on most all of the dealers in town. Sound Mind Audio, Audio By Design,& Whetstone Audio are my personal favs and all three are basically one man operations who exhibit great attitudes, great knowledge, and have good policies.
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"In this case, we would likely see consolidation and "specialty superstore" like Best Buy primarily dedicated to the high end (Might already be happening with Tweeter)."
Wait I thought Best Buy was already high end .
It is this consolidation that I fear. Consolidation is happening in all sectors of business. It is happening for reasons of market share, advertsing, percent profit, efficiency, etc. But is this really what you want? Do you dream of your food choices being all national chain stores like the Olive Garden? Do you like Starbucks coffee? I hope so because it is taking over that sector. How about Wal-Mart? I once saw a thread on here where a lot of people were pissed at Wal-Mart for basically putting out of businees all mom & pop owned retail stores in whichever small town communities they entered. Now the same is happening in large cities. Montgomery Wards is gone, K-Mart is going to join them soon and more are on the way I am sure. Next Wal-Mart has decided to take over the grocer's industry as well. So do you like choices or do you like lower costs but limited choices?
High End audio will be dead when we have to rely on Best Buy, Circuit City, and Tweeter's and their unknowledgable staff for anything, or at least high end will have become whatever the Japanese mass market brands say it is.
Last Rant:
There are other things important to this world other than price, even though our capitalistic society would like you to believe otherwise. I ask can supporting an online retailer or a big national chain store help your local community? I know of several local audio dealers that give their time and money to local charities. In fact, one has and does to an extent still help build and run a non-profit's fund-raising campaign. Local charities would dry-up quick if they were reliant on national chain stores for funding or resources.

 

[Matt Jesty]

Mike, your last post was very well stated.........

 

[Dave_CG]

Definitely an interesting thread. I do always find it interesting how valiantly the "salesmen" on this board defend the stores right to charge high prices. We (the consumers) are bad citizens if we shop for the lowest price. It is our duty to support the local B&M stores and help fend off the evil internet.

I have seen some comments on this earlier, but a store's responsibilities include acting as a showroom for the products they represent. If they feel they cannot deal on price enough to be competitive then they should haggle with the distributor/manufacturer to achieve better pricing or discontinue the line. Consumers should not pay more simply because of some ethical debate. There are advantages to buying Local - Service being #1. Many people feel that this service makes up for a slight price difference.

Bottom line, it is the consumers cash, the consumers decision, and sales is a tough racket. Instead of whining about being fair - Sell yourself and your store as well as the product. If the consumer still buys elsewhere based on price, maybe you should try selling cars - shipping and handling kill the interent sales on this one. "Nobody ever said life was fair."

One side note - I work for an environmental company, and this helps protect the world in which we all live...so if any of you out there consider yourselves good citizens, when you are done giving the salesman your hard earned money out of some moral code - send me some money so I can continue to make the world a better place too.

 

[Kevin_Kr]

As a store manager at an electronics franchise i would agree that everyone has the choice to buy were they please. But I also believe if they are so well informed and know everything, that they should not waste a commisioned salespersons time and efforts. Do those that have said they woudl love it if all the high end stores closed, do you think if this happened there would really be enough online only consumers to support the electronics industry and give everyone that variety of choices they are so akin to? I do not believe a person has a right to even expect a B&M to price match an onlime dealer, due the fact as said before online dealers compete over price, not service. Most good dealers will take great care of you if you become a customer of theirs. Would I tell a person no I do not want their business versus online and walk them over price, probably not, would I meet it totally, No. I tend to compromise on price and build value in the service and the support the sale staff and I will continue to offer them as well.

 

[HowardGjr]

Just for clarification.

1. I am not advocating more consolidation. My business sense is that this is likely to happen. Personally, I didn't have much success with consolidated stores. It seemed to me that the knowledgable and unknowledgeable salesman ratio is much higher in smaller stores. As many of you have commented, the snobbery aspect still seems to be a problem in the high end stores for those with signficant but comparatively modest budgest (4-10K).

2. As a relative newbie, I've bought most of my stuff from a local dealer. The dealer gave me a good price and helped me out with the sale. The slight premium over online prices was definitely worth it to me. On the other hand, I could not come to an agreement on price with another dealer who was very helpful. He wanted 30% premium over the cost from a comparable authorized online dealer. I'd have preferred to work with him, but not at that cost.

3. I don't think the high end will go away. It's a market that caters to individuals who are not elastic with respect to price. This means that there is likely to always be a market for Mark Levison, Krell, Classe, Bryston, etc. On the other hand, I do think these stores may be pressured out of the mid-fi (Rotel, Denon, Integra, Pioneer Elite...) market. Unfortunately, this range represents a typical budget for alot of HT enthusiasts. Additionally, the reduction in revenue from the reduced mid-fi sales will likely reduce the number of high end stores, reducing competition and resulting in even higher prices for the high end gear


4. It's not clear to me that direct marketing in its current form will carry the day. Outlaw, Diva and Rocket certainly have business challenges to overcome. Certainly, embracing the "opennes" of internet communcation has been a dual edge sword and as Chu Gai has commented, outlaws restriction on cable returns makes it almost impossible to consider them as a supplier.

5. I still don't think it is an ethical decision. To me, the question to ask is not, "Am I a bad person for auditioning in one place and buying at another?. Instead, it seems to me that it is more of an economic decision where the questions to be answered are "How will I allocate my scarce resources?" and "Do I care enough about service and "the future viablity of local audio/video stores to pay a price premium?".