A Few Words About A few words about…™ The Harvey Girls – in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Gerani53]

Looking forward to this release! I'm 58 years old, but not very familiar with classic musicals. I'm hoping to change that. I bought The Pirate based on what I read here at HTF, and, in spite of its narrative flaws, enjoyed it very much.

THE PIRATE was always an odd one, a cult movie among the classic MGM musicals that, like SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, seems addicted to its own free-wheeling absurdity. I think an unexpected self-awareness comes through, especially in that extended fight scene where Garland is throwing everything imaginable at Kelly ("You're being excessive!"), and they finally begin to lose it and laugh out of pure exhaustion. His vain character's concerns about being a good actor are actually kinda funny, and seem to foreshadow silent star Don Lockwood's self-doubts. And it's always interesting to note how SINGIN' IN THE RAIN's "Make 'Em Laugh" is just a shameless reworking of Cole Porter's "Be a Clown," although both numbers in their respective films are beautifully played. As for the transfer... The box art says from original Technicolor negatives, although this wasn't mentioned in the announced specs (it was for the upcoming HARVEY GIRLS). But whatever element was used, the end result is quite wonderful.

 

[buckmichaels]

I have one of those old Technicolor super 8 cartridge projectors, from 1968. It still works, but all my movies are reel to reel, so I've never actually shown a film on it. But it is super cool looking, looks like its one of the visaphones right out of the Jetsons!

 

[Will Krupp]

Disney had done a similar thing when restoring "Pollyanna"....part of the eastmancolor single strip negative had faded badly, and they used the separation or protection masters to fill in where needed.

I think you have that backwards, Mike. According to the "Preserving Pollyanna" featurette on the original two-disc DVD, Disney found that the entire camera negative was so badly faded that they resorted to using the separation masters made in 1960 for the whole film. When doing this, they found out that one of the reels was improperly printed back when the film was new and they had two blue records and no green record as "back up." This was the result of operator error in that whoever was preparing the protection masters forgot to change the filter for that reel and didn't realize that two of the elements were the same. The green in the original faded camera negative was in good enough shape that they were able to isolate it and re-create the green/magenta record and recombine it with the separation masters for that one reel. It's the reel where Aunt Polly takes Pollyanna shopping for new clothes.

This was previously done back in the late 90's when Disney had NOTHING SACRED restored for a European TV sale (this restoration can be seen on the second disc that KINO released of the movie.) The green/magenta negative for the first reel was missing. In that case, they used the silver separation master of the magenta record and digitally recombined it with the extant negatives for the other two primaries. They were able to re-create a fully functioning first reel. I believe this was one of the first attempts at digital re-combining (but don't quote me I'm not 100% on that.)

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[RichMurphy]

...
Prints would be S8, dye transfer, with optical tracks, printed in quad format. Scope was possible.

No one wants to run films at home...

In the 1960s, Edmund Scientific sold anamorphic lens for Super 8mm cameras. I thought that would be cool, but my dad said I was spending enough money already on my hobby.

But to get this thread back on track (hopefully a track owned by the Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe railroad ), I can't wait to buy this Blu-Ray of THE HARVEY GIRLS.

 

[Robert Harris]

The three "negatives" that the studio may be referring to in terms of the Court Jester, might just be the three Separation masters that studios made from the original one strip negative, as protection in case any thing bad happened to the camera negative. The three protection masters could then be combined to print a full color copy. Disney had done a similar thing when restoring "Pollyanna"....part of the eastmancolor single strip negative had faded badly, and they used the separation or protection masters to fill in where needed. From what I understand, the picture you get when you use protection masters isn't quite as good as the original camera negative, but pretty close, depending on the condition of the elements involved. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, as I am just going off of articles I've read over the years.

The case of Pollyanna, with the restoration performed by Scott MacQueen, was far more problematic than a simple recombine.

As to sep masters, one must be concerned that the are both complete, ie all three (correct) records, are properly produced, and not damaged.

 

[AnthonyClarke]

The result for 'Pollyanna' was pretty damn good. I've only seen a data-compressed version, so I'm still hoping that one day Disney will give this a Blu ray release for markets outside USA.

 

[Dick]

The merits (or lack of them) of the 1951 Show Boat aside, far from being miscast, Ava Gardner is the best thing about the movie!

One of those performer/viewer bad chemistry things, I guess -- I could never warm up to Ava Gardner (and don't take that wrong!). I think most of us, as well as having our favorite "stars," also find a few that they just don't like, regardless of their popularity. In the latter category for me are Adam Sandler, Shia LaBeouf, Minnie Driver, Norma Shearer, and a handful of others.

 

[Thomas T]

One of those performer/viewer bad chemistry things, I guess -- I could never warm up to Ava Gardner (and don't take that wrong!). I think most of us, as well as having our favorite "stars," also find a few that they just don't like, regardless of their popularity. In the latter category for me are Adam Sandler, Shia LaBeouf, Minnie Driver, Norma Shearer, and a handful of others.

I totally get you what you're saying. Sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason as to why someone can't stand an actor. I have a knowledgeable movie loving friend who can't stand Barbara Stanwyck. Now who hates Barbara Stanwyck? What's not to love? But there's just something about Stanwyck that rubs her the wrong way! Go figure!

btw, as to those you mentioned, while I'm not an Adam Sandler fan, I don't hate him either. I can take him or leave him but I'm with you on the others you mentioned.

 

[GerardoHP]

I'm interested in anything three-strip, especially if it's a pristine transfer. I sit there mesmerized by the use of color on the production design and costumes. I wish all 1940's MGM and Fox Technicolor musicals and non-musicals would receive the HD treatment with clean-up and alignment.

 

[Taylor * D]

I'm hoping when they've finished releasing the popular Technicolor musicals that we'll see Yolanda and the Thief. It was extremely faded when I saw it, but was enchanted with the film. Whimsical, with a great performance from Mr. Astaire, and some terrific choreography. Ahh, I just love the Arthur Freed unit.

 

[Harold Chasen]

I wish all 1940's MGM and Fox Technicolor musicals and non-musicals would receive the HD treatment with clean-up and alignment.

I see you haven't heard the bad news. While MGM tried to preserve their original Technicolor negatives (some are lost due to fires and such), Fox did not. In the early 1970's, they transferred all of their 3 strip nitrate originals to color reversal internegative stock (CRI, or as it's known, CRY, because of its instability). They kept one studio print of each film. And then they destroyed the original negatives.

Apparently, there's one nitrate original 3 strip that was preserved (I forget which one, but Robert Harris has mentioned it). And for 3 strip films that were originated on acetate stock, such as Niagara and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, the camera negatives were preserved. But all of the other Fox 3 strip Technicolor films cannot be restored. They can only be "massaged" from what's left on the CRI's. Some of them, such as My Gal Sal or Leave Her to Heaven, seem to have been made with some care and so can look good on Blu-Ray. Others ... look like what they look like, but can't be made to look better, because there are no better materials to work from. In particular, no re-alignment is possible, because the three primaries are no longer separated; the way they're aligned on the CRI is the way they will stay. Since they were made when the original negatives hadn't shrunken that much, mis-alignment isn't that prominent (although there is some). But other flaws are now baked in.

This would be terrible no matter what. But it's a particular shame because Fox was such a heavy user of Technicolor.

 

[Vern Dias]

Others ... look like what they look like, but can't be made to look better, because there are no better materials to work from. In particular, no re-alignment is possible, because the three primaries are no longer separated; the way they're aligned on the CRI is the way they will stay.

This is not actually true.
One could easily use DaVinci Resolve (even the free version) of which there is also a paid version in very common use in film production and post production to fix issues with color registration.
It is trivial to split the three primaries into three separate paths (nodes) in the editor and then individually manipulate any of the properties of each node including height, width, and position.
DaVinci Resolve, which originally started life as a tool primarily used for color correction, has turned into a full function audio and video editing suite.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/
If I could do this, any studio could also do this if they so desired.

 

[OLDTIMER]

I would like to know why there are not any Technicolor IB prints still around of the old musicals. I know that here in Melbourne Australia exists a nitrate IB print of DOWN ARGENTINE WAY among collectors.

 

[Robert Harris]

I would like to know why there are not any Technicolor IB prints still around of the old musicals. I know that here in Melbourne Australia exists a nitrate IB print of DOWN ARGENTINE WAY among collectors.

I believe examples are all protected at UCLA.

 

[OLDTIMER]

Thanks Robert. I guess the next question is: Wouldn't scans of these prints be better than (for instance) the existing Eastmancolor prints of the Fox musicals?

 

[Robert Harris]

Thanks Robert. I guess the next question is: Wouldn't scans of these prints be better than (for instance) the existing Eastmancolor prints of the Fox musicals?

It would a case by case basis. I‘ve done sample scans, but each print is different.

 

[GerardoHP]

I see you haven't heard the bad news. While MGM tried to preserve their original Technicolor negatives (some are lost due to fires and such), Fox did not. In the early 1970's, they transferred all of their 3 strip nitrate originals to color reversal internegative stock (CRI, or as it's known, CRY, because of its instability). They kept one studio print of each film. And then they destroyed the original negatives.

Apparently, there's one nitrate original 3 strip that was preserved (I forget which one, but Robert Harris has mentioned it). And for 3 strip films that were originated on acetate stock, such as Niagara and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, the camera negatives were preserved. But all of the other Fox 3 strip Technicolor films cannot be restored. They can only be "massaged" from what's left on the CRI's. Some of them, such as My Gal Sal or Leave Her to Heaven, seem to have been made with some care and so can look good on Blu-Ray. Others ... look like what they look like, but can't be made to look better, because there are no better materials to work from. In particular, no re-alignment is possible, because the three primaries are no longer separated; the way they're aligned on the CRI is the way they will stay. Since they were made when the original negatives hadn't shrunken that much, mis-alignment isn't that prominent (although there is some). But other flaws are now baked in.

This would be terrible no matter what. But it's a particular shame because Fox was such a heavy user of Technicolor.

Thanks, Harold, I knew that. I was just referring to my greatest fantasy when it comes to home entertainment. I hope some day they'll be able to at least recreate the look of the originals by some kind of God-knows-what digital magic. There's much that I never thought could happen, latest case in point being The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm coming to Bluray, but technology always seems to surprise me.

 

[Jay_Z_525]

My copy arrived this morning (shockingly on time) via USPS. Did a quick scan and it’s beautiful. The old transfer was good and this certainly approves on that. The best way I can describe it is velvety- layers of details, beautiful colors, fabulous sheen. I can’t wait to sit and actually watch it.

 

[Mark Booth]

My copy of 'The Harvey Girls' (along with 'Mister Roberts') is out for delivery. Looking forward to watching both in the next few days.

Mark

 

[JimMiller]

I see you haven't heard the bad news. While MGM tried to preserve their original Technicolor negatives (some are lost due to fires and such), Fox did not. In the early 1970's, they transferred all of their 3 strip nitrate originals to color reversal internegative stock (CRI, or as it's known, CRY, because of its instability). They kept one studio print of each film. And then they destroyed the original negatives.

Apparently, there's one nitrate original 3 strip that was preserved (I forget which one, but Robert Harris has mentioned it). And for 3 strip films that were originated on acetate stock, such as Niagara and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, the camera negatives were preserved. But all of the other Fox 3 strip Technicolor films cannot be restored. They can only be "massaged" from what's left on the CRI's. Some of them, such as My Gal Sal or Leave Her to Heaven, seem to have been made with some care and so can look good on Blu-Ray. Others ... look like what they look like, but can't be made to look better, because there are no better materials to work from. In particular, no re-alignment is possible, because the three primaries are no longer separated; the way they're aligned on the CRI is the way they will stay. Since they were made when the original negatives hadn't shrunken that much, mis-alignment isn't that prominent (although there is some). But other flaws are now baked in.

This would be terrible no matter what. But it's a particular shame because Fox was such a heavy user of Technicolor.

I believe the existing 3-strip nitrate negative Mr. Harris referred to is Hollywood Cavalcade.