A Few Words About A few words about...™ Laurel & Hardy: The Definitive Restorations - in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Tony Bensley]

I may have misspoken. The publicity notes use the term “pristine.” Is it not also on the packaging?

Here’s the description from Amazon:

Description

STAN AND OLLIE LOOK AND SOUND BETTER THAN EVER!
New 2K and 4K digital restorations from original 35mm nitrate, Laurel and Hardy's classic comedies are here in the best quality since their first release! Two features and 17 shorts, including the legendary pie-fight silent film The Battle of the Century, making its video debut and nearly complete for the first time in over 90 years!
Restorations by Jeff Joseph/SabuCat in conjunction with the UCLA Film & Television Archive and the Library of Congress. Using careful photochemical and digital techniques, these classic films are restored to pristine condition. In these stunning new transfers, they look and sound as beautiful as they did when they were first released.

I think "Description from Amazon" is the key operative, here.

From the back label of "The Definitive Restorations" set:
New 2K and 4K digital restorations from original 35mm nitrate, Laurel and Hardy's classic comedies are here in the best quality since their first release!

No other superlative claims are made on the front and back labels, at least!

CHEERS!

 

[Tony Bensley]

 

[Brian Husar]

Man alive. I am seeing people post in this thread that I have never seen on HTF. Glad you are handling this well RAH.

 

[OliverK]

No criticism of UCLA, or indeed of our peerless lads Stan and OIllie. Clear reading is all that's needed.

Indeed.

"The Blu-ray is still better than the previous DVD from crummy 5th generation elements and this is what it should be compared to. And if you do not like it you are not a true fan of Stand and Ollie"

This may be a slight exaggeration but it is the message that I get from some of the posts in this thread.

 

[Daniel Melius]

I know mr harris is pasonate about film restoration but then does he believe that all films that have been restored by ucla and the library of congress should also be released to be able to be enjoyed by everyone or is it enough to just know that they have been restored? There are many that are to numerous to list but just listing Gary cooper movies there are the texan 1930, the Spoilers 1930, the virginian 1929, meet john Doe, and Sergeant York that have been restored but posibly never to be released.

This company is releasing Laurel and Hardy. They may have cleaned them a bit to much but they are being released and giving us the best versions that have been released. Others just sit in vaults for decades. What purpose does it serve to fully restore films and not release them? I know the companies that own them have the rights to release them and dont but it seems to me that ucla and the library of congress are spending a great deal of effort on these old films for nothing unless it is done just to know that the films have been restored and being preserved for future generations. These future generations may not want anything to do with these films like Gone with the wind and Sergeant York but i do now in the present.

 

[sbeamish]

Imperfect digital cleanup doesn't make this set worthless, only problematic to those who are aficionados when it comes to the original look of film, including grain, and feel that without that flurry of silver particles, it's difficult to appreciate the reality of the performers and actions, that its absence renders everything flat and unattractive. This is more a matter of aesthetics then essentials. Those who are younger and used to the look of digital should have absolutely no problem with this. Mr. Harris is only pointing out the issue of the imperfect digital clean-up so those members who are expecting it to look film-like will be aware of the set's shortcomings. But that certainly doesn't make the set "garbage." Nor is Mr. Harris discouraging people to buy this set. On the contrary, Mr. Harris has repeatedly encouraged people to purchase this set, because of the restorations, commentaries and extras, in spite of the problematic clean-up. Therefore, it is recommended.

As I've made abundantly clear, I'm no expert on the technical aspect of film. (Or any technology, for that matter.) My only concerns with film grain spring from my days collecting 8mm films, when I'd sometimes get a print that was TOO grainy.

That extends even into the digital era, including this set. Some of SONS OF THE DESERT, which Mr. Harris called "dupey" seems to have a bit too much grain. (ON the Vivendi set, the grain in SotD can be, frankly, distracting.)

As you say, and I agree, this is a matter of aesthetics. If you want to "see" film grain, you may have some overall difficulties here. But if you're concerned with these films looking "flat," well that is NOT an issue I'm having. Try watching them on an OLED. "Flat" is the last thing they are. Some of it looks borderline 3D to me. And that's just the DVDs! Can't wait to see the Blu-rays!

 

[Daniel Melius]

Of course, perfect is in the eye of the beholder.

Or on what type of display and settings you are watching it on. My lg oled c9 was never too dark on its a wonderful life. Actually it was perfect on my set up.

 

[Robert Harris]

Or on what type of display and settings you are watching it on. My lg oled c9 was never too dark on its a wonderful life. Actually it was perfect on my set up.

Alright, the sun has risen. Let’s go back to Wonderful Life.

If you’ve not noted, those words were appended, after quite a bit of research - none from Sony, thank you - whilst attempting to view El Aurens on a Sony OLED panel, and having a similar result to Wonderful.

This is after Paramount’s Wonderful Andrea Kalas ran a few minutes of the Wonderful 4k master for me at Technicolor, and I found it to also be wonderful.

Which begged the question: Is the problem in final mastering to 4k Blu, or in my playback system?

Specifically because of the Wonderful problem, I had swapped out my Oppo 4k player for a new Panasonic. The Panny allows HDR and DV to be turned off for playback, while the Oppo does not.

Problem not solved.

Then Lawrence arrives. Problematic black levels and shadow detail. I know I’m going to see that on a Sony projector, but should not on an OLED.

Going into the innards of both the panel and player, I was able to confirm that when the player sent out a DV signal, the panel responded by kicking brightness and contrast to hyper-levels.

But the problem still persisted.

And the panel was properly reading HDR.

Deep in the panels sub-menus, one can go to places illegal for the public to visit in certain states - additional controls for black level, gamma, and others, which should not be discussed on a site where people might be squeamish about adjusting different variants.

Adjustments, experimentation, and finally both Wonderful and Aurens look proper.

Here’s what I learned.

HDR and DV are very different settings.

A Sony panel will recognize DV, and automatically provide the basics but no more.

Take a signal from the Panny to the Sony, and that’s what you get.

Replace the Sony with a newer LG OLED, and guess what? The two have a proprietary deal, which allows for more accurate communication and tone mapping.

Which means that Wonderful, either going into the deep recesses of controls, can be properly Wonderful, as has been corrected in my review, which no longer notes the problem.

So, now it’s simple.

Replace my Sony 4k projector with a JVC. Replace my Sony panel with an LG, and life will be Wonderful. At least for six months. For here, in the Wild, Wild West of HDR and other things that go “bump” in the night...

Which may be why your LG isn’t too dark.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

Or get a Lumagen/MadVR and let it tone map and output as 10 bit SDR to any display/projector properly calibrated for SDR with Rec2020 gamut (al least to the extent of the DCI-P3 gamut).
The new JVC projectors have built in quite decent tonemapping too now.

 

[Robert Harris]

Or get a Lumagen/MadVR and let it tone map and output as 10 bit SDR to any display/projector properly calibrated for SDR with Rec2020 gamut (al least to the extent of the DCI-P3 gamut).
The new JVC projectors have built in quite decent tonemapping too now.

One of my overriding problems with the home theater industry has been their out-of-sync, dismissive attitude toward the consumer base.

There is no logical reason why gear should not simply work - especially without a $5,000 add-on, that will be more junk two years hence.

 

[PMF]

The final mastering process. What goes on there? Are the technicians not aware of the prior work conducted by those who have labored over an exhaustive restoration? Are they not in conference with each other? Are they not aware of the foundational goals? But, mainly, I wonder why all departments of a given project don’t come together for a final screening to conduct a group check of quality control, before releasing?

Where, if any, is the disconnect between departments?

One of my overriding problems with the home theater industry has been their out-of-sync, dismissive attitude toward the consumer base. [...]

Even with my lack of high-end equipment, this statement resonates with me, as I feel this also holds true even on the physical media level. If the faults are not to be found in a restoration but, rather, in the final mastering process, then why should the consumer be placed in a “take it or leave it” position? If the errors were made on their watch then all anomalies should be rectified at their expense, not ours.

BOTTOM LINE: Why should the labors of the initial restoration teams and the anticipations of the consumer both be short-changed by the middle entity (I.e. the final mastering team) who is seemingly less attuned?

 

[PMF]

Edited by PMF.

 

[lark144]

As I've made abundantly clear, I'm no expert on the technical aspect of film. (Or any technology, for that matter.) My only concerns with film grain spring from my days collecting 8mm films, when I'd sometimes get a print that was TOO grainy.

That extends even into the digital era, including this set. Some of SONS OF THE DESERT, which Mr. Harris called "dupey" seems to have a bit too much grain. (ON the Vivendi set, the grain in SotD can be, frankly, distracting.)

As you say, and I agree, this is a matter of aesthetics. If you want to "see" film grain, you may have some overall difficulties here. But if you're concerned with these films looking "flat," well that is NOT an issue I'm having. Try watching them on an OLED. "Flat" is the last thing they are. Some of it looks borderline 3D to me. And that's just the DVDs! Can't wait to see the Blu-rays!

Let's be absolutely clear. These were shot on film. Grain is not an impediment or a distraction to be whisked away, as grain is what gives these Laurel & Hardy films life. Without grain, Laurel and Hardy do not exist. Their sight gags are no longer funny, as the glow and essence that illuminates them is gone. It's the difference between seeing a fuzzy copy of a Van Gogh painting and the thing itself. One is three dimensional, with all kinds of resonances and connections. It's like living tissue. Film grain is living tissue. You may find it distracting ( though if properly mastered it shouldn't be) but without it, you're looking at a pale imitation, without life, joy or intensity. Those little jumping particles also give a three dimensional and miraculous aspect to Laurel and Hardy's physiognomy, They live forever and a day--because of film grain. Without it, they're a pale imitation of themselves. They have no corporeality, no essence, no joy. Film grain is what animates them, and when you take it away, you're also taking away the best part of what makes them seem so alive. Film grain, especially nitrate stock upon which these L&H films were shot, has an almost spiritual dimension to it. Those pesky flakes also impart a glow that transcends mere physicality. They seem more alive then mere mortals such as you and me. Take it away, and they're beyond dead. Their gags are not as natural, and their movements seem forced, because you're taking away that essence that allows them to be so alive. You may not be aware of this consciously, but there is a magic and a miraculous quality in film grain that is essential to the magic that Laurel and Hardy perform. It's all about light, the way it's captured and reflected onto us in the audience, in a way that turns into pure emotion. And that's film grain. An apparent distraction to some, that's actually pure emotion and living tissue. I'm sure as you continue to collect and look upon these wondrous objects and make them your own--what William K. Everson called "the religion of cinema" of which we are all worshipers--you'll come to appreciate film grain and realize why so many of us here feel it's so important.

 

[Mysto]

Let's be absolutely clear. These were shot on film. Grain is not an impediment or a distraction to be whisked away, as grain is what gives these Laurel & Hardy films life. Without grain, Laurel and Hardy do not exist. Their sight gags are no longer funny, as the glow and essence that illuminates them is gone.

It must have been difficult making grain over their live performances when they went on tour. A technological marvel.
I very much enjoy seeing wonderful b/w films looking like I remember them in the theater - but to say L&H are not funny without grain is silly.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

There is no logical reason why gear should not simply work - especially without a $5,000 add-on, that will be more junk two years hence.

It won't be junk but basically you are right, it should work out of the box without any need to fiddle or add additional HW or SW.

 

[PMF]

[...] but to say L&H are not funny without grain is silly.

I know what you’re saying, but with grain Stan and Ollie stand to be even funnier.

 

[Mysto]

I know what you’re saying, but with grain they stand to be even funnier.

Would that be American grain or European grain? Wink wink, Grin grin!

 

[David Weicker]

One of my overriding problems with the home theater industry has been their out-of-sync, dismissive attitude toward the consumer base.

There is no logical reason why gear should not simply work - especially without a $5,000 add-on, that will be more junk two years hence.

It won't be junk but basically you are right, it should work out of the box without any need to fiddle or add additional HW or SW.

Do the enthusiasts ever watch it 'out of the box'? I thought the first step was always have their equipment 'calibrated' by some technician when they brought it home.

 

[lark144]

It must have been difficult making grain over their live performances when they went on tour. A technological marvel.
I very much enjoy seeing wonderful b/w films looking like I remember them in the theater - but to say L&H are not funny without grain is silly.

It is silly, and yet true. I appreciate your humor, which seems entirely appropriate for a thread about Laurel and Hardy, so please excuse me if i get a bit serious.

When they did their performances on film, the grain captured their essences and also retains the essence of their humor; it's essential humanness and specificity. It may look the same without grain, but it isn't. There are other levels that your conscious eye may not see, but it's still there, and it works on a number of levels.

First and foremost, it's all about fidelity. Truthfulness, if you like.

The grain contains the truth of their performances, because it's about capturing light, and I'm sure Mr. Laurel and Mr. Hardy re-imagined their performances for film with light in mind; what you could see and what you couldn't and how it appeared with all that added illumination.

That illumination--the way the light falls on their bodies and changes as their gestures and expressions change, is an essential part of their gags as captured on film, And the light that reveals the humor of their routines is expressed through film grain.

Therefore, the film grain that captures Laurel and Hardy's humor is funny, because that humor is expressed through film grain. It's the essence of their gestures and personalities. Take away the grain, and you still have the essential if not the essences of their routines, you can tweak the grey scales and sharpen the thing so it looks superficially pleasing, but that spark, that fidelity, that sense of being alive and right there in the moment that was originally captured by film grain and is contained within it, a record of their movements, lives and laughter, is missing.

 

[sbeamish]

Let's be absolutely clear. These were shot on film. Grain is not an impediment or a distraction to be whisked away, as grain is what gives these Laurel & Hardy films life. Without grain, Laurel and Hardy do not exist. Their sight gags are no longer funny, as the glow and essence that illuminates them is gone. It's the difference between seeing a fuzzy copy of a Van Gogh painting and the thing itself. One is three dimensional, with all kinds of resonances and connections. It's like living tissue. Film grain is living tissue. You may find it distracting ( though if properly mastered it shouldn't be) but without it, you're looking at a pale imitation, without life, joy or intensity. Those little jumping particles also give a three dimensional and miraculous aspect to Laurel and Hardy's physiognomy, They live forever and a day--because of film grain. Without it, they're a pale imitation of themselves. They have no corporeality, no essence, no joy. Film grain is what animates them, and when you take it away, you're also taking away the best part of what makes them seem so alive. Film grain, especially nitrate stock upon which these L&H films were shot, has an almost spiritual dimension to it. Those pesky flakes also impart a glow that transcends mere physicality. They seem more alive then mere mortals such as you and me. Take it away, and they're beyond dead. Their gags are not as natural, and their movements seem forced, because you're taking away that essence that allows them to be so alive. You may not be aware of this consciously, but there is a magic and a miraculous quality in film grain that is essential to the magic that Laurel and Hardy perform. It's all about light, the way it's captured and reflected onto us in the audience, in a way that turns into pure emotion. And that's film grain. An apparent distraction to some, that's actually pure emotion and living tissue. I'm sure as you continue to collect and look upon these wondrous objects and make them your own--what William K. Everson called "the religion of cinema" of which we are all worshipers--you'll come to appreciate film grain and realize why so many of us here feel it's so important.

Lol, you seem to have taken what I said a bit out of context. I said that the excessive grain in the particular print of SONS OF THE DESERT which is included in the Vivendi set is (and I meant "at times") a distraction.

Wow.