UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - Frenzy -- in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[Ken_McAlinden]

I like Frenzy better than any Hitchcock film produced after The Birds and am glad it is well represented on 4k disc. Anyone claiming this is his worst has clearly not seen The Paradine Case.

 

[Henry Gondorff]

in the minority, I've always liked FRENZY, with the exception of a gruesome murder scene early on that I find unnecessary and disturbing. THE FAMILY PLOT is downright awful, imho. To me it plays like a TV movie of the week

You are not in the minority. The majority of critics felt Frenzy was one of Hitchcock's best latter-day efforts. I think many who say they dislike the film are not actually offended by the graphic depiction of rape and murder so much as that Hitchcock chose to employ it. There seems to be a feeling among the film's detractors that Mr. Hitchcock should have portrayed the violence inferentially. Even though he and other directors such as Joseph Mankiewicz and Billy Wilder were masters at raising sexual innuendo to a fine art at a time when such explicitness on the screen was unthinkable, Mr. Hitchcock's decision to portray the incidents as he did should be beyond question. It was the director's prerogative that a film made in the sixties would and should reflect the norms and mores of that era, and not of the forties. As to Family Plot, I actually enjoy the film but it is a trifle within the oeuvre of the director, and crippled by a low budget and a second-string cast, probably dictated by Universal after the poor return on the star expenditure of Torn Curtain. I do love Barbara Harris's performance and Bruce Dern's reading of the line "I gotta get off this road", but Mr. Hitchcock was at this point tired and ailing, and the film is essentially phoned in. The no-brakes driving sequence is a tired rehash of the Cary Grant drunk-driving scene in North By Northwest and was probably demanded by Universal to inject some suspenseful action into a rather pedestrian film. Yes, it's a nice if inconsequential picture and I am not saying anyone shouldn't like it; I am saying it's in a class substantially below Frenzy.

 

[Robin9]

I like Frenzy better than any Hitchcock film produced after The Birds and am glad it is well represented on 4k disc. Anyone claiming this is his worst has clearly not seen The Paradine Case.

Ah, The Paradine Case. Another Hitchcock film much derided but which I enjoy a lot!

 

[sbjork]

UHD is the first home video format that can properly reproduce film grain, in my opinion.

I urge anyone who has dismissed 4K, as I did for a couple of years, to reconsider, because I'm a total convert now.

I've made that argument over and over again, but grain management in 4K is a big deal -- when it's done properly, of course. It can be more natural looking, and have less issues with noise and other compression artifacts. Whenever anyone scoffs about 4Ks for movies shot on 16mm negative, no, there's not 4k worth of actual picture detail available, but grain management alone can make the upgrade worthwhile.

 

[Robert Harris]

I've made that argument over and over again, but grain management in 4K is a big deal -- when it's done properly, of course. It can be more natural looking, and have less issues with noise and other compression artifacts. Whenever anyone scoffs about 4Ks for movies shot on 16mm negative, no, there's not 4k worth of actual picture detail available, but grain management alone can make the upgrade worthwhile.

Especially in standard taking formats, 35mm and above, why does grain need to be managed except in early dupes?

 

[sbjork]

Especially in standard taking formats, 35mm and above, why does grain need to be managed except in early dupes?

Managed by the compression algorithms when encoding to disc, not managed in the sense of noise reduction in the mastering process. The best master can fall apart when encoded to disc. That's one of the advantages to 4K Ultra HD compared to Blu-ray: greater breathing room. Grain is one of the first things that suffers when the compression starts to fall apart. Plus, I'd argue that even in the case of fine-grain 35mm or better, the increased resolution of 4K can reproduce the original grain better, regardless of encode. More chance of the grain looking like real grain, instead of like noise.

 

[Robert Harris]

Managed by the compression algorithms when encoding to disc, not managed in the sense of noise reduction in the mastering process. The best master can fall apart when encoded to disc. That's one of the advantages to 4K Ultra HD compared to Blu-ray: greater breathing room. Grain is one of the first things that suffers when the compression starts to fall apart. Plus, I'd argue that even in the case of fine-grain 35mm or better, the increased resolution of 4K can reproduce the original grain better, regardless of encode. More chance of the grain looking like real grain, instead of like noise.

Grain really hasn’t been a compression problem since DVD, unless the desire is to scrimp on space.

 

[Worth]

…The leap from BD to UHD, with a good player (I have a Panasonic 820) and a good TV, is as huge as the leap from VHS to DVD was. I'm not kidding.

UHD is the first home video format that can properly reproduce film grain, in my opinion.

I urge anyone who has dismissed 4K, as I did for a couple of years, to reconsider, because I'm a total convert now.

As a counterpoint to that, I find it an incremental improvement, much smaller than the jump from VHS to laserdisc/DVD or SD to HD, even on a high-end OLED. There’s also the issue that HDR is wildly inconsistent - too dark in some titles, too bright on others. I actually prefer the blu-ray over the 4K in a number of cases, as it may more closely resemble viewing a projected print.

 

[lark144]

While 4K discs can be played on a 1080p HDTV, the downconversion from HDR to SDR is extremely complicated and almost all players do a crap job with it.

Thanks Josh for commenting. That's what the people I talked to said, that the downconversion was not only complicated but inaccurate, far less than wonderful as far as quality is concerned, and not worth the expense of getting a 4K player--no matter how "reasonably priced"--without a 4K television, which I don't have the space for in a UWS studio apt, as I wouldn't be happy with the way it looked. That made sense to me, and came from people much more authoritative than I. And while I'd love to see those major Hitch upgrades, especially Rope, I can certainly live without. If Universal chooses not to spend the money to transfer the new 4K masters to Blu-Ray, I can also choose not to buy.

 

[JoshZ]

Thanks Josh for commenting. That's what the people I talked to said, that the downconversion was not only complicated but inaccurate, far less than wonderful as far as quality is concerned, and not worth the expense of getting a 4K player--no matter how "reasonably priced"--without a 4K television, which I don't have the space for in a UWS studio apt, as I wouldn't be happy with the way it looked. That made sense to me, and came from people much more authoritative than I. And while I'd love to see those major Hitch upgrades, especially Rope, I can certainly live without. If Universal chooses not to spend the money to transfer the new 4K masters to Blu-Ray, I can also choose not to buy.

I think this is a reasonable approach to take. I've been in the home theater game for a very long time and currently have a high-end JVC 4K projector. When all the stars align, yes, a good 4K disc can show an improvement over its corresponding Blu-ray. But, assuming both discs stem from the same video master, it's definitely a case of diminishing returns. In many cases, there's little to no appreciable difference, and due to the complexities of HDR, sometimes the 4K may look worse.

I cannot tell you the number of times I've been left frustrated at how needlessly dim the HDR grading on much 4K content is.

The jump from VHS to DVD was massive. The jump from DVD to Blu-ray was equally massive. The jump from Blu-ray to 4K is, eh, a tiny step forward. For the most part I'm glad to have it, but in my opinion Blu-ray still hits the sweet spot for high-quality reproduction of a film source at screen sizes most viewers will have in the home.

As far as grain reproduction goes, assuming it comes from a good master, Blu-ray is perfectly capable of reproducing grain to the degree intended to be seen in 35mm projection. 4K often exaggerates grain far more than it was ever meant to be seen.

 

[lark144]

I think this is a reasonable approach to take. I've been in the home theater game for a very long time and currently have a high-end JVC 4K projector. When all the stars align, yes, a good 4K disc can show an improvement over its corresponding Blu-ray. But, assuming both discs stem from the same video master, it's definitely a case of diminishing returns. In many cases, there's little to no appreciable difference, and due to the complexities of HDR, sometimes the 4K may look worse.

I cannot tell you the number of times I've been left frustrated at how needlessly dim the HDR grading on much 4K content is.

The jump from VHS to DVD was massive. The jump from DVD to Blu-ray was equally massive. The jump from Blu-ray to 4K is, eh, a tiny step forward. For the most part I'm glad to have it, but in my opinion Blu-ray still hits the sweet spot for high-quality reproduction of a film source at screen sizes most viewers will have in the home.

As far as grain reproduction goes, assuming it comes from a good master, Blu-ray is perfectly capable of reproducing grain to the degree intended to be seen in 35mm projection. 4K often exaggerates grain far more than it was ever meant to be seen.

Thanks so much, Josh, for all the information, and the details.

Of course, what we're talking about here is not using a 4K player with an older HD screen in general, which your post is about and which I completely agree with.

But, whether specific major upgrades, such as Rope & The Man Who Knew Too Much, in which the Blu-Rays were based on inferior DVD era masters, and which are now only available on 4K discs, as the included Blus are from the same old crappy masters, would reveal the higher quality of those 4K masters in a 4K player attached to that older HD screen.

That is what a number of members on this thread are encouraging me to do.

I'm not sure the increased resolution of those 4K masters would come across in my setup, because of the complexities of downsizing.

It seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for two movies, no matter how much I love them and how wonderful the upgrades may be, when the results on my system may be less than wonderful.

 

[JoshZ]

But, whether specific major upgrades, such as Rope & The Man Who Knew Too Much, in which the Blu-Rays were based on inferior DVD era masters, and which are now only available on 4K discs, as the included Blus are from the same old crappy masters, would reveal the higher quality of those 4K masters in a 4K player attached to that older HD screen.

That is what a number of members on this thread are encouraging me to do.

I'm not sure the increased resolution of those 4K masters would come across in my setup, because of the complexities of downsizing.

When 4K UHD first came out, I faced a similar dilemma and wrote this article about watching 4K discs on a 1080p screen. I found the conversion from HDR to SDR extremely problematic. My understanding is that the situation hasn't gotten much better in the meantime. Because 4K TVs are so common now, this issue of downconverting 4K HDR to 1080p SDR is not something manufacturers put more than a token effort into.

 

[Richard Kaufman]

I've always felt that "Frenzy" was quite gripping. And if memory serves, it has a helluva jump scare involving a truck of potatoes.

 

[Robert Harris]

Thanks Josh for commenting. That's what the people I talked to said, that the downconversion was not only complicated but inaccurate, far less than wonderful as far as quality is concerned, and not worth the expense of getting a 4K player--no matter how "reasonably priced"--without a 4K television, which I don't have the space for in a UWS studio apt, as I wouldn't be happy with the way it looked. That made sense to me, and came from people much more authoritative than I. And while I'd love to see those major Hitch upgrades, especially Rope, I can certainly live without. If Universal chooses not to spend the money to transfer the new 4K masters to Blu-Ray, I can also choose not to buy.

May I ask what you’re currently using as a panel? From your comments, it sounds that the problem is space anf not funds.

 

[Allansfirebird]

I like Frenzy better than any Hitchcock film produced after The Birds and am glad it is well represented on 4k disc. Anyone claiming this is his worst has clearly not seen The Paradine Case.

Waltzes from Vienna outclasses Paradine in terms of awfulness.

 

[John Maher_289910]

I find everything about FRENZY, ugly. Hitchcock without his usual sheen. At least THE PARADINE CASE has pretty people in it, boring though they may be.

 

[lark144]

May I ask what you’re currently using as a panel? From your comments, it sounds that the problem is space anf not funds.

I have a 36 inch Sony Bravia. Because of the overhanging mantel, and that there's only 60 inches between my couch and the wall, I really can't go bigger. Though I'm someone who is continually upgrading Blu-Rays to get a closer approximation to 35mm film, because of my space limitations, that's about the best I can do. And I'm pretty happy with it. I never bought the Blu of Rope because I decided that the misalignment would bug me. I imagine sooner or later a DCP of this new master will show up at Walter Reade or Film Forum, and I'll see it then.

 

[Trancas]

I have a 36 inch Sony Bravia. Because of the overhanging mantel, and that there's only 60 inches between my couch and the wall, I really can't go bigger. Though I'm someone who is continually upgrading Blu-Rays to get a closer approximation to 35mm film, because of my space limitations, that's about the best I can do. And I'm pretty happy with it. I never bought the Blu of Rope because I decided that the misalignment would bug me. I imagine sooner or later a DCP of this new master will show up at Walter Reade or Film Forum, and I'll see it then.

I sit about 50" from a 55" 4K and it's perfect for 1 or 2 people. The size of the panel is 48 1/2" x 28 1/4" including a thin edge. Wouldn't that still give eye level viewing when put under your mantel?

 

[lark144]

I sit about 50" from a 55" 4K and it's perfect for 1 or 2 people. The size of the panel is 48 1/2" x 28 1/4" including a thin edge. Wouldn't that still give eye level viewing when put under your mantel?

Thanks so much Eric for your response. I really appreciate all the feedback. That's what so great about this forum.

There's less than 30 inches from the bottom of my current panel to the bottom of the mantel, and less than 8 inches from the top, which isn't really enough for a 55 inch screen. I might be able to squeeze a 40 inch panel in, but that would be the limit, and that seems awfully small for 4K, in terms of a getting a major increase in quality. I'm not even sure they make them.

The only issue is the ability to watch upgrades on my current set-up which aren't on Blu. Basically, I'm resigned to that, though when I'm forced to replace my current model because of age, I'll probably look into the possibility of a small 4K panel again.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

You’ll wind up on the upgrade path I’m on, which is that I wasn’t specifically looking to buy 4K equipment but every piece of HD equipment I have that has reached end of life is no longer made for HD only, so 4K was the only option.

Like I was saying, it’s probably best not to think of it as “upgrading to 4K” but simply replacing end of life gear with what’s currently available. Your Blu-ray collection is still gonna look great on a new 4K screen so there isn’t a need to replace everything you own. But in cases where the Blu-ray just was lacking, you’ll get the new 4K disc not because you’re specifically looking for increased resolution, but simply because it’s a newer, better master that just so happens to be in 4K.