A Few Words About A few words about...™ It's a Wonderful Life (Corrected)-- in 4k UHD Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[lark144]

I've been pretty clear that I don't do 4K at this time. I'm only talking about the Blu-ray and I don't play these set-up games because they're BS. I have a great 55-inch TV on which great black-and-white transfers look, well, great. As I said, I'm glad you like it. I'm glad others like it. Some of us clearly have problems with at least the Blu-ray iteration, and Mr. Harris clearly has problems with the 4K disc. How much grain there is and how it looks is exactly the point, for me. I have many Blu-ray transfers that actually look as good or better than a print and actually resemble what film looks like. Maybe the 4K iteration here is better - but you're not going to change my mind about what the Blu-ray looks like to ME.

The Blu-Ray looks so degrained and otherwise digitally prettied-up to me, I'm wondering whether they just re-released a slightly cleaned up version of the same HD master from a few years back. The box simply says "Newly Remastered." Nothing about it being taken from a 4k scan of the original negative.

 

[bugsy-pal]

I haven't seen the 4k disc, but going from the screencaps I've seen, I feel like the "grain" on this 4K is goosed up or sharpened in some way. I doesn't look natural.

 

[ghostwind]

The plot thickens I guess... and I seem back to square one on what to get now...

_Man_

"Avengers: Endgame" in 4K UHD with a Martin Scorsese commentary track

 

[moviebuff75]

Can I please get a clear description of what everyone is concerned about, so I can let my contact know? I don't want to come across as ungrateful or complaining. I want to make sure she knows what to look for, so she can answer my question. The last time I had an issue, she had the final master fixed that same day. Of course, it was just a glitch, but still.

 

[cda1143]

I just spent some time comparing the previous Blu-Ray, iTunes 4K SDR, and iTunes 4K DV. (I don't have the UHD disc yet.)

I'm a novice compared to the experts here, but I agree with RAH and Haines on this one. There's no question that this new 4K, in either SDR or DV, has significantly less shadow detail than the previous BD. It isn't difficult to find, and it's very consistent. A great deal of dark clothing is missing any detail, texture, and even shape and contour. The DV version seems to loose a bit more detail to black, but at least on iTunes, both 4K versions are essentially the same. It's amazing that RAH can spot these issues without any direct comparison.

And at least on my 55" display, I'm in agreement with Haines on the grain issue as well. I really don't see any additional grain on the 4K than I see on the previous blu.

Even with all the problems on the previous blu, I can easily see why some may prefer it just for the shadow detail alone.

I'll compare on the projector screen tonight and post some more observations regarding sharpness and grain at large size.

 

[cda1143]

Reporting back after comparing iTunes 4K SDR vs. previous Blu on a JVC RS500:

Without question, I prefer the previous blu-ray. I find even less grain and detail in the 4K, and I find the shadow crush annoying.

A reminder that I do not own the new disc - either UHD or Blu-ray. But from what I've just seen and from what I've read in this thread, I'm not about to spend any more money on this release.

I think RAH is correct.

YMMV

 

[willyTass]

Can I please get a clear description of what everyone is concerned about, so I can let my contact know? I don't want to come across as ungrateful or complaining. I want to make sure she knows what to look for, so she can answer my question. The last time I had an issue, she had the final master fixed that same day. Of course, it was just a glitch, but still.

was the grain added in, in post ?

 

[ghostwind]

Can I please get a clear description of what everyone is concerned about, so I can let my contact know? I don't want to come across as ungrateful or complaining. I want to make sure she knows what to look for, so she can answer my question. The last time I had an issue, she had the final master fixed that same day. Of course, it was just a glitch, but still.

I don't think there's anything clear TBH, but I'll try to sum it up, as this thread is going in all sorts of directions. The issues reported fall into two categories:

1. 2019 4K UHD having less shadow detail than the 2009 Blu-ray. Initially reported by Mr. Harris, but not a unanimous conclusion, as others are not experiencing this, including myself. More details below.

2. 2019 Blu-ray not having enough grain compared to 16mm and 35mm nitrate prints. Reported by Bruce initially, but again, there are disagreements. More details below as well.

In terms of the 2019 4K UHD issue, I personally believe it's down to the nature of how different display devices handle HDR/HDR10/Dolby Vision, particularly EOTF curves/gamma when the contrast and brightness settings (and OLED light if applicable) are left at their defaults (which is necessary and the bypass setting for HDR10/Dolby Vision to work properly). Some displays could have lifted blacks, some proper blacks, and some crushed blacks. This is not a new problem, but a common one in HDR land. It's complex and messy. LG for example has released various firmware updates over the last year to deal with black level issues in HDR for their OLED displays. It's a mess. And not everyone has the problem. And still no real solution from LG for some folks. And just as LG is dealing with this issue, I have to assume others are too. So it's complicated, and no easy answer.

In terms of the 2019 Blu-ray, a few folks are not happy with it, due to a perceived lack of proper grain when compared to 16mm or 35mm prints. I've said my 2 cents on it, and am OK if others disagree. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just curious myself as to what's going on that reports can vary so much, and people seem so passionate, even angry! But I cannot agree it's not better than the 2009 Blu-ray - that's just wrong on many levels, sorry. That version truly WAS devoid of grain, and had plenty of other issues. A quick A/B comparison (and I mean real quick) will show the 2019 version is superior all around. As it should be.

So that's pretty much it. Not sure there's something to report yet.

The other point I was going to address was Chris' findings with the iTunes 4K HDR/SDR vs. 2009 Blu-ray. I would be careful to draw conclusions from a heavily compressed 4K stream. Chris mentioned both black crush and lack of grain and detail with the 4K, and that's a combination not reported so far by anyone with the 4K. And the 4K has less detail than the 2009 Blu-ray? Something is not right there for sure.

Lastly, I'm not sure why some get defensive when talking about displays used to evaluate and form opinions, or calibration settings, etc. This thread should be about problem solving this, not arguing about who is "right" and who is "wrong".

 

[Robert Harris]

Can I please get a clear description of what everyone is concerned about, so I can let my contact know? I don't want to come across as ungrateful or complaining. I want to make sure she knows what to look for, so she can answer my question. The last time I had an issue, she had the final master fixed that same day. Of course, it was just a glitch, but still.

With what organization is your contact?

 

[haineshisway]

I don't think there's anything clear TBH, but I'll try to sum it up, as this thread is going in all sorts of directions. The issues reported fall into two categories:

1. 2019 4K UHD having less shadow detail than the 2009 Blu-ray. Initially reported by Mr. Harris, but not a unanimous conclusion, as others are not experiencing this, including myself. More details below.

2. 2019 Blu-ray not having enough grain compared to 16mm and 35mm nitrate prints. Reported by Bruce initially, but again, there are disagreements. More details below as well.

In terms of the 2019 4K UHD issue, I personally believe it's down to the nature of how different display devices handle HDR/HDR10/Dolby Vision, particularly EOTF curves/gamma when the contrast and brightness settings (and OLED light if applicable) are left at their defaults (which is necessary and the bypass setting for HDR10/Dolby Vision to work properly). Some displays could have lifted blacks, some proper blacks, and some crushed blacks. This is not a new problem, but a common one in HDR land. It's complex and messy. LG for example has released various firmware updates over the last year to deal with black level issues in HDR for their OLED displays. It's a mess. And not everyone has the problem. And still no real solution from LG for some folks. And just as LG is dealing with this issue, I have to assume others are too. So it's complicated, and no easy answer.

In terms of the 2019 Blu-ray, a few folks are not happy with it, due to a perceived lack of proper grain when compared to 16mm or 35mm prints. I've said my 2 cents on it, and am OK if others disagree. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just curious myself as to what's going on that reports can vary so much, and people seem so passionate, even angry! But I cannot agree it's not better than the 2009 Blu-ray - that's just wrong on many levels, sorry. That version truly WAS devoid of grain, and had plenty of other issues. A quick A/B comparison (and I mean real quick) will show the 2019 version is superior all around. As it should be.

So that's pretty much it. Not sure there's something to report yet.

The other point I was going to address was Chris' findings with the iTunes 4K HDR/SDR vs. 2009 Blu-ray. I would be careful to draw conclusions from a heavily compressed 4K stream. Chris mentioned both black crush and lack of grain and detail with the 4K, and that's a combination not reported so far by anyone with the 4K. And the 4K has less detail than the 2009 Blu-ray? Something is not right there for sure.

Lastly, I'm not sure why some get defensive when talking about displays used to evaluate and form opinions, or calibration settings, etc. This thread should be about problem solving this, not arguing about who is "right" and who is "wrong".

To address just your last sentence - I don't think anyone is arguing about who is "right" and who is "wrong." People are posting their opinions. I personally have said in almost every post that if people love what they are seeing, great. I'm not sure what "problem solving" has to do with the Blu-ray that I watched. I'm really gonna dig around in the garage for the older Blu, just to compare.

 

[cda1143]

....I'm not sure what "problem solving" has to do with the Blu-ray that I watched. I'm really gonna dig around in the garage for the older Blu, just to compare.

If you find it, please compare the first scenes of young George at the drugstore. I'm seeing more and clearer freckles on the old Blu-ray than I'm seeing on the iTunes 4K version.

Thanks

 

[cda1143]

The Blu-Ray looks so degrained and otherwise digitally prettied-up to me, I'm wondering whether they just re-released a slightly cleaned up version of the same HD master from a few years back. The box simply says "Newly Remastered." Nothing about it being taken from a 4k scan of the original negative.

Although I agree with your observations, I think it's fairly certain this is taken from a new 4K scan (although not all from the original negative). Paramount even includes a feature proudly explaining about the scan and the elements used.

 

[Robert Harris]

If you find it, please compare the first scenes of young George at the drugstore. I'm seeing more and clearer freckles on the old Blu-ray than I'm being on the iTunes 4K version.

Thanks

One would, presumably, reproduce more detail from a non-streamed source.

Not to bring Dear Alice to the fore, but attempting to cull viable comparisons involving streaming, brings one to that rabbit hole.

Please keep in mind that streaming is generally not a constant.

Comparisons of physical media to a streamed signal can also lead one to question one’s mental status.

We can compare old and new Blu-rays, vs DVDs, vs 4k physical media, vs properly produced 16, 35, and 70mm prints - even vs laserdiscs. But once a streamed signal enters the equation...

 

[cda1143]

One would, presumably, reproduce more detail from a non-steamed source....

Please keep in mind that streaming is generally not a constant.
...But once a streamed signal enters the equation...

Indeed. Hence my curiosity and specific question for Haines should he find old blu. With streaming there is always the possibility of something going on that you don't know about. I will say however, that having spent many hours comparing iTunes 4k streams with their respective UHD discs, (on a 110 x 47 screen) I've yet to be disappointed.

This stream however, seems to look much like you have described - not quite right.

Having finally just watched my Olive Blu-ray of Letter From an Unknown Woman, OTOH - now that looks right!

Thank you so much!

 

[moviebuff75]

RAH, Paramount. The restoration team.

 

[Robert Harris]

RAH, Paramount. The restoration team.

I’m sure they’re aware of the discussion.

I expect to have the BD later today.

 

[moviebuff75]

I will be speaking with her today to see if this is being looked into.

 

[Bryan^H]

I think the HDR looks bad. I'm not even sure how to describe it other than unnatural. Washed out.

Without it (Dynamic Range Conversion) it looks much, much better. Thank goodness for my Panasonic UHD player. It saved the day.

 

[Robert Harris]

With thanks to Paramount, for getting a Blu-ray for me to peruse, I can now make some additional comments relative to the new 4k and Blu.

Comparing them against each other, and also the prior Blu, I've come away with the following.

I like the new Blu-ray. Grain is a tad light, but it may not be from a new image harvest, merely an updated master. Gray scale seems beautiful, far more open than the 4k, and looking closest to film prints.

Grain on the 4k appears more course in Dolby Vision than in projection, and would be fine, if there were a full grain scale.

The new Blu is far and away, a better way to visit the film than the old version.

If I were purchasing one of the new variants, it would be the Blu-ray, or if one desired to import, the 4k / non-colorized Blu-ray from the UK.

I'm unable to strip the HDR /DV and play without, but am betting that this image harvest and the work performed would be gorgeous in that mode.

The new Blu-ray is Highly Recommended

RAH

 

[cda1143]

Thank you Mr. Harris