A few words about…™ Sweet Charity – in Blu-ray

For those who have the DVD, or have seen it theatrically, fasten your seat belts, for it's a great show. 4 Stars

Anyone who saw the recent series about Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon will be aware that Ms. V did not get the lead role in Sweet Charity when it was produced as a film, even through Fosse directed.

It’s still the same old story…

Andrews / Hepburn.

But that aside, Shirley MacLaine should be lauded for her performance, as coached by Ms Verdon.

Two versions of the film on are offered on two discs from Kino Lorber’s new blu-ray. Road Show and “alternate.”

I fully expected decent older transfers, with good audio, as this is a licensed title.

That’s not what has occurred.

The marketing material state “Brand new 4k restoration,” but we know how those things go.

Keeping in mind that this is a very old film (1969), especially for film stocks and audio, Kino’s new Blu-ray is absolutely mind-boggling.

Audio, presumably from the original mag tracks is crisp, strong, and proscenium filling. It’s all there. Imagery, is perfectly stable, perfectly clean, and appears like a 1969 Technicolor dye transfer print.

Colors literally jump off the screen, as if this film isn’t from the dark ages.

Zero “age related artifacts.”

For a change, the marketing is spot on.

Brand new 4k restoration? Check!

Those new to the film, are in for a treat.

For those who have the DVD, or have seen it theatrically, fasten your seat belts, for it’s a great show.

All this, and a new monograph from Julie Kirgo, a fan of the film.

Look for a young Bud Cort, uncredited, as a Flower Child.

Image – 5

Audio – 5

Pass / Fail – Pass

Upgrade from DVD – Seriously?

Highly Recommended

RAH

Published by

Robert Harris

editor,member

282 Comments

  1. Glad to hear what Mr Harris has to say. I have the French bluray and everything he says about this release I would have to say applies to the French release. Just wondering how much better this release could be.

  2. trajan007

    Glad to hear what Mr Harris has to say. I have the French bluray and everything he says about this release I would have to say applies to the French release. Just wondering how much better this release could be.

    While the French blu ray has the overture and intermission, it lacks the film's entr'acte. I'm assuming the Kino Roadshow cut has put the entr'acte back in.

  3. This is all good news indeed. I'm still a little surprised that Universal / Kino ponied up the money for an actual 4K restoration, given the relatively small fanbase the film has. I don't know if I would actually call the film "very old" though, but that may be because I am from 1969 myself.

  4. Robert Harris

    I scanned. Did not note entr’acte. Don’t believe there’s exit mx.

    Oh dear. That's a bummer! I'm glad I waited for reviews rather than an early pre-order. This title went from high priority to low priority. Methinks I'll stick with the French blu ray for the time being. 🙁

  5. Ethan Riley

    I hope so — there's a whole intermission card when they're stuck in the elevator. I thought there was entr'acte music?

    There definitely was an entr'acte during its original Roadshow run. I stand to be corrected but I believe that the entr'acte was replicated on the old laser disc.

  6. Thomas T

    There definitely was an entr'acte during its original Roadshow run. I stand to be corrected but I believe that the entr'acte was replicated on the old laser disc.

    Both the Entr’acte and the exit music were also on the vhs. I’ll still get this release, but may wait for a sale now. The french blu is beautiful so there isn’t a pressing need. It’s a shame they’re missing from this as it sounds like an otherwise superlative release. But not a total deal breaker for me.

  7. TJPC

    There was definitely an intermission. That is where I stopped the disc today. They did play some sort of music.

    Now, I'm confused. The French blu has the intermission card but there is silence until part two starts up. If you heard music during the intermission card, that could be the entr'acte playing (it was a brief entr'acte as I recall).

  8. Thomas T

    Oh dear. That's a bummer! I'm glad I waited for reviews rather than an early pre-order. This title went from high priority to low priority. Methinks I'll stick with the French blu ray for the time being. 🙁

    By not noting the card, I’m not suggesting that it isn’t there. I’ll be happy to check, and conform. I would presume there is, as the overture is in place.

  9. Well I felt fine when I woke-up this morning, but after reading – "Keeping in mind that this is a very old film (1969)", & "Colors literally jump off the screen, as if this film isn't from the dark ages" – I'm feeling a few aches & pains now. 🙂

    …mind you, The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper album, 1967, is closer in time to the First World War that it is to today!

  10. Billy Batson

    Well I felt fine when I woke-up this morning, but after reading – "Keeping in mind that this is a very old film (1969)", & "Colors literally jump off the screen, as if this film isn't from the dark ages" – I'm feeling a few aches & pains now. 🙂

    …mind you, The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper album, 1967, is closer in time to the First World War that it is to today!

    18 years before Sweet Charity, films were on nitrate stock.

  11. Robert Harris

    Keeping in mind that this is a very old film (1969), especially for film stocks and audio, Kino's new Blu-ray is absolutely mind-boggling.

    Old?!?! 1969?!?!? I shudder to think where that puts The Wizard of Oz or Chaplin's The Circus, unless, of course, we're being glib about timelines here. I was born only 2 years after Sweet Charity came out. So, I shudder to think where that ranks me in this pantheon of survival! (joke!).

    PS – cannot wait for this to street!!!

  12. No Intermission card, per se. A "To Be Continued" card, followed by a video still frame noting "intermission." Same of Overture still.

    Strange, silence between the parts, as if the intermission needed to be encoded on the disc, but too short to accomplish anything, even starting one's great American novel.

    Followed by Meanwhile, back in the elevator…

  13. Robert Harris

    No Intermission card, per se. A "To Be Continued" card, followed by a video still frame noting "intermission." Same of Overture still.

    Strange, silence between the parts, as if the intermission needed to be encoded on the disc, but too short to accomplish anything, even starting one's great American novel.

    Followed by Meanwhile, back in the elevator…

    Thanks. So the Entr’acte isn’t there. I’ll bet the exit music isn’t either. This essentially matches the French blu-ray. No need to get this then until it’s on sale.

  14. For those who are saying there IS intermission music, can anyone post it so we can hear exactly what's missing? And was there EVER an card in theaters that said INTERMISSION, or was it just the "TO BE CONTINUED" card, which is my memory.

  15. haineshisway

    For those who are saying there IS intermission music, can anyone post it so we can hear exactly what's missing? And was there EVER an card in theaters that said INTERMISSION, or was it just the "TO BE CONTINUED" card, which is my memory.

    As I recall, there was no actual intermission card, just the "to be continued" as Charity and Oscar called for help in the elevator as the curtains closed. There was a brief entr'acte as the theater lights dimmed letting the audience know the film was about to resume and as the entr'acte ended, it was back to Charity and Oscar in the elevator.

    I suppose it seems petty to complain about a piece of music but for we Roadshow babies, we want the film to replicate the Roadshow experience that we had when we saw it in its first run theatrical showing as close as possible.

  16. Ok. Watching Blu ray now.

    — She is stuck in elevator with Oscar
    — music goes “ta da”
    — “to be continued” in calligraphy
    —intermission card for maybe 20 sec. in silence
    — “meanwhile back in elevator” in calligraphy. “ta da”
    — movie resumes

  17. Someone sent me a CD they made in England and it has a track called Entr'acte and Exit Music. It sounds more like exit music to me. It is certainly music/orchestrations that are not heard anywhere else in the film. If techno nerd here figures out how to do it I will try to upload it, but no promises, but it does exist.

  18. haineshisway

    Now I can buy this but I will also say the French Blu is excellent.

    By saying this, Bruce; and based on your reading of RAH's review without your seeing the Kino disc; are you saying that your collective experiences in comparative disc viewings – along with a gut feeling – is sensing that this Kino edition may be superior to that of the French? This question is put forth as I remember that you favored the French "Irma la Douce" over the Kino. Thanks.

  19. Entr'acte music was definitely on the old vhs. It was about 3 1/2 minutes long. Started with "My Personal Property," continued on with "If They Could See Me Now" and ended with "It's a Very Nice Face." It wasn't just underscoring from the rest of the film either–it was original. The movie is on youtube and you can see the section starting at a about 1:19:05 . There is a brief intermission card but that looks like it was made up for the LD or other home video versions.

  20. Both Universal and Kino went back into "Sweet Charity" and pulled off a full 4K Restoration. Together, they are also boasting that this latest of discs also contains THE Roadshow version. Therefore, since the Entr'acte does exist; which, of course, is part of THE Roadshow format and experience; could anyone explain or address how Universal and Kino arrived at its omission?

  21. Ethan Riley

    Entr'acte music was definitely on the old vhs. It was about 3 1/2 minutes long. Started with "My Personal Property," continued on with "If They Could See Me Now" and ended with "It's a Very Nice Face." It wasn't just underscoring from the rest of the film either–it was original. The movie is on youtube and you can see the section starting at a about 1:19:05 . There is a brief intermission card but that looks like it was made up for the LD or other home video versions.

    Thanks for posting, Ethan. The entr'acte is longer than I remember it but at least those of us who remember it are validated. Pity that Universal has eliminated it. I'm not blaming KL as they get what what Universal gives them.

  22. I'm gonna say this, and it's just a supposition, not based on anything, really: Could this entr'acte on the VHS and laser have been created for that? That's happened many times – 1776 for example, which never had an overture, has one for the laserdisc, that was created for that (I think I'm remembering that correctly). I'm not sure Universal (Kino has nothing to do with it other than licensing and paying) would make that kind of an error, but, who knows?

  23. Thomas T

    Thanks for posting, Ethan. The entr'acte is longer than I remember it but at least those of us who remember it are validated. Pity that Universal has eliminated it. I'm not blaming KL as they get what what Universal gives them.

    The French release uses that music as the overture.

  24. haineshisway

    I'm gonna say this, and it's just a supposition, not based on anything, really: Could this entr'acte on the VHS and laser have been created for that? That's happened many times – 1776 for example, which never had an overture, has one for the laserdisc, that was created for that (I think I'm remembering that correctly). I'm not sure Universal (Kino has nothing to do with it other than licensing and paying) would make that kind of an error, but, who knows?

    Bruce, unless I've gone gaga in my dotage (entirely possible :(), I distinctly remember an entra'cte during its roadshow engagement which I saw opening week at the St. Francis theatre in San Francisco.

  25. Ethan Riley

    Entr'acte music was definitely on the old vhs. It was about 3 1/2 minutes long. Started with "My Personal Property," continued on with "If They Could See Me Now" and ended with "It's a Very Nice Face." It wasn't just underscoring from the rest of the film either–it was original. The movie is on youtube and you can see the section starting at a about 1:19:05 . There is a brief intermission card but that looks like it was made up for the LD or other home video versions.

    Thanks Ethan! It was great to hear that again after about 25 years or so. Shame they didn’t include the exit music in the upload.

    I had tranferred the soundtrack of the vhs to audio cassette back in the day to get all the dance music, the entr’acte and the exit music because it wasn’t on the soundtrack lp, and it was also in much better sound quality. But I no longer have any way to play either a vhs or an audio cassette anymore. I kick myself for not ever transferring it to cd in later years. Especially once the dvd came out and I figured they were gone forever. Which is somewhat true, as it turns out, I guess.

  26. haineshisway

    I'm gonna say this, and it's just a supposition, not based on anything, really: Could this entr'acte on the VHS and laser have been created for that? That's happened many times – 1776 for example, which never had an overture, has one for the laserdisc, that was created for that (I think I'm remembering that correctly). I'm not sure Universal (Kino has nothing to do with it other than licensing and paying) would make that kind of an error, but, who knows?

    Bruce, i can’t speak to the original 1969 release, but I know the first time I saw the film on the big screeen at LA County Museum of Art, it had the entr’acte and exit music. That’s where I fell in love with them as I had never heard them before. The part of the overture before the Universal logo never played on tv either, but at least it was on the album. Then I was thrilled when they were on the vhs several years later.

  27. Every step and move to the choreography of Bob Fosse is specific;
    as are the beats and musical notations of a Ralph Burns arrangement.
    The Ralph Burns orchesatrations are symbiotic to the entire atmosphere, plot points and character of this film;
    as they are to the ouvure of all that is Bob Fosse and their historical collaborations.
    Indeed, such things as a Ralph Burns Entr'acte can not be dismissed as music that is merely incidental;
    no more than one would remove an Irwin Kostal Entr'acte from "The Sound of Music";
    or a Johnny Green Entr'acte from "Oliver!";
    nor an Andre Previn Entr'acte from something seemingly as simple as "Thoroughly Modern Mille".

    More easily said than done, but perhaps – like the 4K/UHD restoration of "2001"; which included Warner's succesful recall of the cut/fade issue – Universal may want to consider the same by reinstating the omitted Ralph Burns Entr'acte back to its proper and documented "Roadshow" context. After all, the studio went quite far to achieve what is otherwise reported as being perfect; so why not finish the job as it was promoted and marketed to their customers? Indeed, if the materials, running times and components of what constitues a "Roadshow" remains omitted, then a "Roadshow" it is not. Therefore, either the studio has the responsibility of conducting a recall and rectifying the matter; or they can opt to remove the banner of "Roadshow" from all of their active venues of advertising, while consequently taking the less expensive route of reprinting the descriptive "Sweet Charity" BD slipcases that are currently in circulation.

    Kudos to Kino; but the praise – at this moment – may fall short of being Universal.

  28. haineshisway

    Sounds like they were – odd that Universal would not realize it – I mean, it's their picture, they have to have the paperwork.

    True, but this is the same Universal who apparently never knew that every home video incarnation of Psycho was the edited re-release version and not the 1960 Hitchcock approved theatrical release version.

    I think it’s probably an intentional decision by people who don’t truly understand what Roadshows were and who think that “extra” music doesn’t matter and, in the case of the Entr’acte, may actually slow the action down in the middle of the film. The Overture and Intermission cards were created solely for the home video laserdisc and vhs releases and Uni retained the Overture card when transferring it to dvd, but dropped the Intermission card, along with the music. So they were aware of the existence of it all and obviously made a choice as to what they wanted to include on the dvd. I remember MGM doing the same thing when putting Where Eagles Dare on dvd and blu-ray. The overture, entr’acte and exit music were all dropped even though they had all been present on the vhs.

    It’s just a shame this is being called the Roadshow version when essentially it is the general release version. Still, it’s great to see a beautiful domestic release on blu-ray.

  29. PMF

    Every step and move to the choreography of Bob Fosse is specific;
    as are the beats and musical notations of a Ralph Burns arrangement.
    The Ralph Burns orchesatrations are symbiotic to the entire atmosphere, plot points and character of this film;
    as they are to the ouvure of all that is Bob Fosse and their historical collaborations.
    Indeed, such things as a Ralph Burns Entr'acte can not be dismissed as music that is merely incidental;
    no more than one would remove an Irwin Kostal Entr'acte from "The Sound of Music";
    or a Johnny Green Entr'acte from "Oliver!";
    nor an Andre Previn Entr'acte from something seemingly as simple as "Thoroughly Modern Mille".

    That was not always the case. Home video companies used to be pretty bad about keeping this stuff. IIRC the pre-1990s videos of The Sound of Music and My Fair Lady dispensed of entr'acte music. In the case of the latter, that was repeated twice as exit music and not restored until no later than 1991 with the last VHS release before the 30th anniversary restoration. The original MGM/CBS video version c. 1980 even took away the "Warner Bros. Presents" credit! That was also the case with the other Rodgers & Hammerstein films, except in The King and I's case for the 1999 non-anamorphic DVD, they actually added the soundtrack album overture at the beginning and an intermission/entr'acte right before the English party guests arrive that apparently was only there for the 1961 70mm blow-up reissue.

    The original RCA/Columbia videotape and pan-and-scan laserdisc of Oliver! (never seen one earlier than 1985) also was missing entr'acte and exit music while the overture music replaced the opening credits music. I think this was the same master that aired on The Disney Channel in 1986* along with Robert Stevenson's two musicals, The Great Muppet Caper (which is now Disney-by-Proxy), and some other studios' musicals as well. The Disney Channel actually did show the intermission music to Oklahoma! and South Pacific along with timers…but my mom paused them when she taped them! They fared better than what Columbia did to Bye Bye Birdie the first time it was on video!

    Even though they could release it in stereo, Disney didn't put back the pre-credits overture to Happiest Millionaire until the 1990s Anchor Bay release or the exit music replay of "Fortuosity" until their ultra-compressed in-house DVD in the 2000s. None of these are on the streaming/download versions but the picture quality is a HUGE step up, so it's not impossible to switch between the two to recreate the whole 172-minute Roadshow presentation, just inconvenient.

    So as a whole the studios have gotten better. Why this is the exception I will never understand. Did they at least restore that scene near the end that somehow got lost from the DVD? That was just sloppy. If there were bits missing from Star Wars Part XLVII: Combing The Dandruff Out Of Chewbacca or some comic book movie, the fan base would be up in arms about it.

    *Annie played on NBC for the first time around the same time, cut from 128 minutes to roughly 96 minutes, affecting mainly the additional songs and most of what got it rated PG. This was not long after Columbia made a two-part Alice in Wonderland for CBS-TV with an American girl in the lead and Sherman Hemsley as a mouse singing "I Hate Dogs and Cats" during the year-long interim between The Jeffersons and Amen. Meanwhile, later that same year, NBC aired a three-hour musical reimagining of Babes in Toyland by Orion, producers of Cagney and Lacey, with new songs (including one about Cincinnati, Ohio obviously aimed at pleasing the Procter & Gamble company who was buying a lot of the air time on it) that got cut from the video release rendering the film totally incomprehensible.

  30. Its wonderful that you have this appreciation for this music. Many of us, including myself, would be visiting the “restroom” while it played in the theatre or making a sandwich while it played at home!

    I have a huge collection of Broadway music original cast recordings and sound tracks, many of them restored. I am afraid I often skip the background music or dance music when playing them. 90% of this music is just an orchestral repeat of a song. I hate Disney, but they have the right idea for their CDs — they group all the songs together at the beginning, and then the instrumentals at the end.

  31. MatthewA

    That was not always the case. Home video companies used to be pretty bad about keeping this stuff. IIRC the pre-1990s videos of The Sound of Music and My Fair Lady dispensed of entr'acte music. In the case of the latter, that was repeated twice as exit music and not restored until no later than 1991 with the last VHS release before the 30th anniversary restoration. The original MGM/CBS video version c. 1980 even took away the "Warner Bros. Presents" credit! That was also the case with the other Rodgers & Hammerstein films, except in The King and I's case for the 1999 non-anamorphic DVD, they actually added the soundtrack album overture at the beginning and an intermission/entr'acte right before the English party guests arrive that apparently was only there for the 1961 70mm blow-up reissue.

    The original RCA/Columbia videotape and pan-and-scan laserdisc of Oliver! (never seen one earlier than 1985) also was missing entr'acte and exit music while the overture music replaced the opening credits music. I think this was the same master that aired on The Disney Channel in 1986* along with Robert Stevenson's two musicals, The Great Muppet Caper (which is now Disney-by-Proxy), and some other studios' musicals as well. The Disney Channel actually did show the intermission music to Oklahoma! and South Pacific along with timers…but my mom paused them when she taped them! They fared better than what Columbia did to Bye Bye Birdie the first time it was on video!

    Even though they could release it in stereo, Disney didn't put back the pre-credits overture to Happiest Millionaire until the 1990s Anchor Bay release or the exit music replay of "Fortuosity" until their ultra-compressed in-house DVD in the 2000s. None of these are on the streaming/download versions but the picture quality is a HUGE step up, so it's not impossible to switch between the two to recreate the whole 172-minute Roadshow presentation, just inconvenient.

    So as a whole the studios have gotten better. Why this is the exception I will never understand. Did they at least restore that scene near the end that somehow got lost from the DVD? That was just sloppy. If there were bits missing from Star Wars Part XLVII: Combing The Dandruff Out Of Chewbacca or some comic book movie, the fan base would be up in arms about it.

    *Annie played on NBC for the first time around the same time, cut from 128 minutes to roughly 96 minutes, affecting mainly the additional songs and most of what got it rated PG. This was not long after Columbia made a two-part Alice in Wonderland for CBS-TV with an American girl in the lead and Sherman Hemsley as a mouse singing "I Hate Dogs and Cats" during the year-long interim between The Jeffersons and Amen. Meanwhile, later that same year, NBC aired a three-hour musical reimagining of Babes in Toyland by Orion, producers of Cagney and Lacey, with new songs (including one about Cincinnati, Ohio obviously aimed at pleasing the Procter & Gamble company who was buying a lot of the air time on it) that got cut from the video release rendering the film totally incomprehensible.

    Excellent reminder of how home video has evolved, clarified and improved; but I was addressing the age of discs. And in this age of discs – especially Blu Ray – there are no such practices, such as advertising the original "Roadshow" version and then omitting those very materials and segments that constitute a "Roadshow". The genie has long since left its lantern.

    And for the record, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting a boycott of Kino's wonderfully reviewed 4K restoration of "Sweet Charity". BUT, at the same time, I am absolutely suggesting to Universal and any other studio preparing a Blu Ray that they withdraw from the exercises of advertising a "Roadshow" if this, in the end, is not what we'll be receiving. According the RAH's review, the "4K restoration" banner used in the marketing of "Sweet Charity" has been fulfilled as advertised; but according to PMF and other HTF posters, the "Roadshow" aspects of Universal's "Sweet Charity" marketing is that of a Roadshow that isn't present. Therefore, the term "Roadshow" should never have been used or touted to heighten our expectations or Pre-Orders. Other than that, there is much about Kino's "Sweet Charity" to celebrate and support.

  32. JohnMor

    I think it’s probably an intentional decision by people who don’t truly understand what Roadshows were and who think that “extra” music doesn’t matter and, in the case of the Entr’acte, may actually slow the action down in the middle of the film. The Overture and Intermission cards were created soley for the home video laserdisc and vhs releases and Uni retained the Overture card when transferring it to dvd, but dropped the Intermission card, along with the music.

    Overture "cards" are an invention for the home video market. In cinemas, the overture usually played with the lights slightly dimmed and the curtains drawn. With the death of the Roadshow and the advent of home video, someone is puzzled why there is music playing but no picture and may think he has a defective tape/disc. The newly created overture card lets the viewer know, "Hey, this is a proper overture, the movie will begin shortly." I have a much younger friend who fast forwards during these overtures 🙁 as he sees them as a waste of time.

    When I saw the Roadshow version of Tarantino's The Hateful Eight (never released on disc, just the general version), the film did have an overture card precisely to let the "younger" film goers know what was going on and that it was actually part of the film experience. This would never have been necessary in the "old" days :).

    I stand to be corrected but I believe the only overture which had a visual theatrically is West Side Story whose overture plays over the film's title while the card changes colors.

  33. I saw Ben-Hur several years ago and the manager came out and explained that there would be music played from the film with the curtains closed and screen dark at the beginning and at the end of intermission. He never revered to it as Overture or Entr’acte. Lol

  34. in 1979 Star Trek – The Motion Picture had entrance music played as part of the print. The theater -which was almost brand new -had shear curtains. The film (scratches and and dust on black) played through the curtain. The curtain was opened as the Paramount Logo came on the screen …

    There was also exiting the theater music on the print as well … Both featuring themes from Jerry Goldmith's soundtrack.

    I've never seen "Sweet Charity" except on TV … but I did see the "Sweet Charity Marionettes" in a small museum Universal had as part of the Universal Studios Tour….

  35. Thomas T

    Overture "cards" are an invention for the home video market. In cinemas, the overture usually played with the lights slightly dimmed and the curtains drawn. With the death of the Roadshow and the advent of home video, someone is puzzled why there is music playing but no picture and may think he has a defective tape/disc. The newly created overture card lets the viewer know, "Hey, this is a proper overture, the movie will begin shortly." I have a much younger friend who fast forwards during these overtures 🙁 as he sees them as a waste of time.

    When I saw the Roadshow version of Tarantino's The Hateful Eight (never released on disc, just the general version), the film did have an overture card precisely to let the "younger" film goers know what was going on and that it was actually part of the film experience. This would never have been necessary in the "old" days :).

    I stand to be corrected but I believe the only overture which had a visual theatrically is West Side Story whose overture plays over the film's title while the card changes colors.

    My Fair Lady

  36. Here is the intermission and entr’acte. The entr’acte card was created for video. This intermission and entr’acte was on the VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, and IIRC the French Blu-ray release.

    This scene was inadvertently absent from the DVD release yet was on the VHS, Laserdisc, and French Blu-ray releases.

    Here is the exit music only released on Laserdisc. Again, the exit music card was one prepared for video and not on the film.

  37. haineshisway

    I'm gonna say this, and it's just a supposition, not based on anything, really: Could this entr'acte on the VHS and laser have been created for that? That's happened many times – 1776 for example, which never had an overture, has one for the laserdisc, that was created for that (I think I'm remembering that correctly). I'm not sure Universal (Kino has nothing to do with it other than licensing and paying) would make that kind of an error, but, who knows?

    The 1776 Pioneer Special Edition Laserdisc has an overture created for the Laserdisc, and the liner notes pointed that out. The film bypassed a roadshow release and was cut before such elements were created; that Laserdisc was an attempt to present the film as it may have been seen and heard using the elements that could be located at the time.

    Sweet Charity had a roadshow run with an overture, intermission (silent), entr'acte, and exit music. Only the Laserdisc release contained all of these elements, and it ran 2:37:05 (as does the Blu-ray I created using the French Blu-ray and Laserdisc, the latter only for the audio for the exit music).

  38. Chuck Pennington

    The 1776 Pioneer Special Edition Laserdisc has an overture created for the Laserdisc, and the liner notes pointed that out. The film bypassed a roadshow release and was cut before such elements were created; that Laserdisc was an attempt to present the film as it may have been seen and heard using the elements that could be located at the time.

    You so correct on 1776. I recall reading an article by Joe Capps in which he said he created it as a roadshow Preston. While I liked it m, I knew it was a wish.

  39. Chuck Pennington

    Sweet Charity had a roadshow run with an overture, intermission (silent), entr'acte, and exit music. Only the Laserdisc release contained all of these elements, and it ran 2:37:05 (as does the Blu-ray I created using the French Blu-ray and Laserdisc, the latter only for the audio for the exit music).

    Thanks Chuck. I had forgotten that the Entr’acte is indeed on the dvd. My bad. But it does NOT appear on the French blu-ray. I just checked. The blu-ray features the Intermission card silently for about 30 seconds but does not not feature the musical Entr’acte.

  40. JohnMor

    Thanks Chuck. I had forgotten that the Entr’acte is indeed on the dvd. My bad. But it does NOT appear on the French blu-ray. I just checked. The blu-ray features the Intermission card silently for about 30 seconds but does not not feature the musical Entr’acte.

    Ah, then I must've retained the Entr'acte on my hybrid from the DVD. I didn't remember that as clearly as I did adding back the exit music from the Laserdisc.

    What gets me is that I messaged Kino about the incomplete French Blu and warned about what was missing. The fact that their release was delayed and commentary tracks added I thought was a good sign. Surely the people recording and preparing commentary knew the film in question well enough to ensure it was the full roadshow release as advertised, but apparently not.

    It sounds like the master used for the feature film on Kino's disc matches the French Blu from a year ago. In which case, I can stick with my full roadshow hybrid.

  41. ahollis

    You so correct on 1776. I recall reading an article by Joe Capps in which he said he created the laser as a roadshow presentation. While I liked it, I knew it was a wish.

    For the special laser disc edition of Picnic (1955), Caps also created an "overture" which was never part of the actual film.

  42. haineshisway

    I'm hoping those who say it was on the VHS and the Laserdisc can post the music. I don't remember if there was exit music or not.

    Your wish is my command. The musical interludes in question have been uploaded to YouTube from my hybrid Blu-ray and are in a post above.

    There isn't intermission music, but there is a substantial entr'acte and exit music that appear to be missing from Kino's forthcoming Blu-ray.

  43. Thomas T

    I stand to be corrected but I believe the only overture which had a visual theatrically is West Side Story whose overture plays over the film's title while the card changes colors.

    I believe Gypsy (1962) also has a 'title' overture, as well as Star! (1969).

  44. Chuck Pennington

    Here is the overture that has been on every video release of Sweet Charity I've seen, though with various video generated "overture" screens.

    Here is the intermission and entr'acte. The entr'acte card was created for video. This intermission and entr'acte was on the VHS, Laserdisc, and DVD. It was not on the French Blu-ray release. (Thanks JohnMor for the correction.)

    Black screen / no audio on BD

    This scene was inadvertently absent from the DVD release yet was on the VHS, Laserdisc, and French Blu-ray releases.

    On BD

    Here is the exit music only released on Laserdisc. Again, the exit music card was one prepared for video and not on the film.

    Not on BD

  45. Lars von Trier's DANCER IN THE DARK starring Bjork has a beautiful quasi-overture sequence (with hypnotic images) which does exactly what an overture is supposed to do: help the audience transition from whatever real world they entered the theatre, into the world of the movie.

  46. Can there be such a thing as a "Roadshow" in the absence of an Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and its Exit Music?
    If not, then this 4K of "Sweet Charity" needs to have its "Roadshow" banner yanked from all its advertising and descriptive casings.
    Just keeping it honest; as an MSRP of @ $40.00 adds to the misleading aspects of an non-existing "Roadshow".
    I don't expect Universal will rectify their omissions of these boffo Ralph Burns arrangements;
    and, quite frankly, I don't believe they will even withdraw the "Roadshow" banner from its now established marketing;
    but the price of 40 bucks needs to be harnessed in and down to 30 bucks or less.

  47. TJPC

    I haven’t finished watching disc 2 “alternate version”. I wonder if this has your missing music, or a comment about why it’s not there.

    The alternate version was for general release and would not have the roadshow music.

  48. Drew Salzan

    There definitely was an Entr'acte and Exit music in the Roadshow. DVD included it. Might pass on this one, especially with that price point.

    Check your DVD. The exit music is not on it, neither is over a minute of dialogue from a key scene when Oscar leaves Charity at city hall.

  49. Well, your description of how the intermission appears but without the entr'acte and with 30 seconds of silence is exactly what is on the French Blu-ray.

    This isn't the first time Universal has messed up the release of this title, going back to 1969. I would've hoped the people at Kino would've heeded my warning about the missing entr'acte and exit music, but oh well.

  50. My time estimates are showing that Kino's "Sweet Charity" has up to 6 minutes and 49 seconds of missing "Roadshow" footage.

    I'll bid 30 bucks for their providing us with a 4K restoration;
    but deduct that other $10 from the MSRP of $40 in response to those missing "Roadshow" elements.

    What's in your wallet?

  51. warnerbro

    Thank you! Can't wait! Are both versions equal in quality? Kino, can we have STAR! and THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE now — with commentary by Julie Andrews?

    Yes!–Universal and Kino should definitely create a MILLIE Blu-ray–long overdue! However, STAR! is a Fox film, and I have had several message exchanges about it with Twilight Time. TT owns the rights to STAR!, and they intended to release the film on Blu-ray for the film's 50th anniversary…but Fox's HD mastering stalled, and so far this has not come to be, sadly. Now that Fox is owned by Disney, I suspect there will even be less effort put into restoring/preserving/digitizing non-Disney catalog titles. What a shame; STAR! is not a perfect film, by any means, but it contains some of Julie Andrews' best musical performances, and it was shot in gorgeous Todd-AO. And there's a newly restored 70mm print that's made the rounds, so you'd think the mastering job has been largely done. If any of you have clout with Fox, hound them!

  52. Yes, it is a shame the entr'afe wasn't done correctly. It's disappointing that these studios keep messing these types of things up (WEST SIDE STORY comes to mind). To correctly label a release "road show" they should get these things right.

  53. The sad fact is that the people who are creating these discs probably do not have any concept of what a roadshow was. Aside from the recent HATEFUL EIGHT release, films released using the road show concept have been extremely rare since the early 1970's. Add to this that a term like "entre' acte" is largely unknown. I remember a recent blu ray review (not on this forum) where the writer talked about how much he liked the "entre' acte at the end of the film." Utterly clueless, but at age 65 I realize that there are a lot of things have been lost to time. Still I don't understand if the SWEET CHARITY dvd included the entre' acte music why they would drop it for the blu ray.

  54. Thoroughly Modern Millie (also from Universal) actually gained exit music when it came out on DVD. I had the laserdisc, and it had overture and intermission music, but not exit music. I nearly fell off my chair when I first got the DVD when that music started to play after the end title. And not only, that but the exit music on the DVD is different from what is labeled as exit music on the soundtrack LP. So I suppose it depends on who is doing the mastering since it seems inconsistent from one edition to another.

  55. Let’s start a “When I Fell Off My Chair” thread. My experience came when after seeing “Kid Millions” a dozen times on an old black and white TV, I finally saw it on a new colour set when I moved away from home. I did not know that the final real was in brilliant eye hurting technicolor! At last Eddie and Ethel were revealed! (A lot of heavy make up though!) I basically gave a big hoot and felt like audiences in the theatre must have at the time.

  56. Being fully aware that the Kino Lorber thread has strict guidelines, I wonder if it is permissible to ask "Insider" if they are aware of the missing Entr'acte and Exit Music; as well as asking if they might be willing to postpone the release of "Sweet Charity", until Universal could re-instate the missing musical portions onto a corrected transfer and BD? Any suggestions from a Moderator?

  57. noel aguirre

    Doesn’t Camelot have an “Overture” title card in the same type at the title/credits? Or was that just created for home video?

    I’m unaware of any roadshows that had cards identifying music.

    How might one run/see them?

    With the curtains closed.

  58. Although I'm also disappointed with the potential lack of entr'acte/exit music, I assume by "roadshow version," what they're referring to is the long version with all the montages as opposed to the shorter general release version.

  59. Robert Harris

    I’m unaware of any roadshows that had cards identifying music.

    How might one run/see them?

    With the curtains closed.

    Scrim

    I definitely remember an overture of a roadshow film having an overture with some hind of image under a scrim in one of the old theaters in Baltimore in the 60's. Could have been The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur.

  60. Chuck Pennington

    Another Blu-ray for which I created my own hybrid to have complete when the official release didn't suffice.

    And you were able to mix the sound of the bells to flow right into the title bells? That's amazing.

  61. I wish I could like this movie more- Sweet Charity- but Chita Rivera and Paula Kelly just completely steal the film in every scene they're in. I find the rest of the movie kind of ridiculous but will still get it for their 2 numbers alone and the noted reference quality as stated by RAH..

  62. I saw “Sweet Charity” in December 1969 in 70mm at the Cinema 70 in St. Cloud, Minn. I was 14 and completely dazzled by the film. The sound was spectacular! The intermission had been seamlessly edited out. So, no entr’ate. Otherwise the complete roadshow with overture and exit music. I was surprised to see it when I bought the laserdisc in 1992. With the laserdisc I was able to make a really complete soundtrack album on my computer and burn it to a CD. Now it’s a prized part of my iTunes.

  63. noel aguirre

    Scrim

    I definitely remember an overture of a roadshow film having an overture with some hind of image under a scrim in one of the old theaters in Baltimore in the 60's. Could have been The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur.

    Neither of those films had overture images – I don't know a single roadshow film that did. Movie theaters did not have "scrims" – they had curtains.

  64. haineshisway

    Neither of those films had overture images – I don't know a single roadshow film that did. Movie theaters did not have "scrims" – they had curtains.

    West Side Story and Star! are the only ones I recall that did, oh, and the short passage in My Fair Lady before the Warner Bros. Logo. That’s all I know and Bruce is correct, Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur were black screens so the curtain could be over them. Ten Commandments had a small overture, just over a minute, then CB DeMille had his on screen intro.

  65. noel aguirre

    Doesn’t Camelot have an “Overture” title card in the same type at the title/credits? Or was that just created for home video?

    The Overture credit was added by Warner Bros. For home video.

  66. OK, Overture titles were added for home video so people wouldn’t get confused over hearing music and seeing a black screen. Same with the Entr'acte and Exit Music titles. Only West Side Story, Star! And My Fair Lady had an image during the Overture. I am sure RAH and Bruce can correct me if I’m wrong.

  67. haineshisway

    Neither of those films had overture images – I don't know a single roadshow film that did. Movie theaters did not have "scrims" – they had curtains.

    Didn’t you read what RAH said earlier? My Fair Lady had overture images- flowers.

    And a scrim is a second layer that coexists with a curtain and I am almost certain that layout existed in Baltimore where one theater actually had a curtain (only) that raised from the bottom up. It was either I think The New or The Hippodrome.
    Does anyone remember whether the Ziegfeld in NYC had such a two curtain process- a big velvet red curtain with a secondary scrim underneath?

  68. noel aguirre

    Didn’t you read what RAH said earlier? My Fair Lady had overture images- flowers.

    And a scrim is a second layer that coexists with a curtain and I am almost certain that layout existed in Baltimore where one theater actually had a curtain (only) that raised from the bottom up. It was either I think The New or The Hippodrome.
    Does anyone remember whether the Ziegfeld in NYC had such a two curtain process- a big velvet red curtain with a secondary scrim underneath?

    Well, see, I don't really consider that a standard overture – same with West Side – those two were DESIGNED to have the curtains open so those designed sequences could be seen.

    I understand exactly what you're saying about two curtains – I believe the Paramount (now the El Capitan) had a front curtain that went up and then a secondary curtain that parted to the side. But that's not what a scrim is – a scrim isn't really a curtain, at least I've never heard it described thusly – it's a live theater thing, something that when lit from the front is opaque and when lit from the rear can be seen through.

  69. noel aguirre

    Scrim

    I definitely remember an overture of a roadshow film having an overture with some hind of image under a scrim in one of the old theaters in Baltimore in the 60's. Could have been The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur.

    Could have been a slide

  70. From my experience as a projectionist back in the '60's I never found that the curtains blocked out the projected image until the 'dowser' on the projector was closed which cuts off the light source.
    When I projected "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA" in 1965/66, during the overture, the other projectionist on my shift opened the dowser and the image of the blank film showed on the curtains. So I closed the dowser and he frowned at me. I told him I knew the overture music well enough to know when to open the dowser and the curtains on the BBFC card, which was at the head on all British prints.

  71. Matt Hough

    It does though it's shortened from what was on the WB soundtrack LP (which was the original stage overture).

    Trivia–For GYPSY they must have filmed the entire Overture as on the LP, because if you concentrate on the orchestra in the credits sequence there's a fade forward where the cut comes. It's hard to notice because you're watching the credits and not the background orchestra.

  72. Speaking of LAWRENCE, an image I've kept plastered to the inside of my skull for 30 years is the sight of that gorgeous Columbia logo hitting the curtains as they opened at the Century Plaza. Those curtains had a nice long travel, coinciding with the duration of the logo and that wonderfully effective chord in the orchestra. It was magnificent.

  73. Perhaps the theatre decided to project a slide during the overture, to avoid complaints from the audience that they forgot to open the curtains. One theatre in Helena Montana went one step further in catering to its audience's inadequacies – they turned on an electric sign placed behind the screen announcing that the concession stand was about to close. Mind you, they did this DURING THE MOVIE!!!!!

  74. I just read all of the posts here. Seems to me there's a lot of missing the forest for the trees talk. So many complaints about some Entr'acte and Exit Music missing, music that was, mind you, not listened to by a majority of theatre goers because they were leaving, or getting back to their seats after the intermission, etc. And yet, not one complaint with overture titles that were added for home video releases. If you're going to be an absolutist, then shouldn't you object to those things, too, no? Kino has put out this fabulous looking Blu-Ray according to the review and I daresay are not raking in the money for doing so and with all the criticism here I daresay why would they want to keep pursuing these ventures with all the thanks they get.

    I saw Sweet Charity a few years ago at a summer long retrospective of Universal films at the Billy WIlder Theatre in Westwood. I've seen the movie on home media many times, but this was the first time in a theatre. Frankly, I don't even recall now if there was an overture, intermission, entr'acte or exit music. Kudos to all of you who remember such things from fifty years ago.

    Kino: Thank you for this new Blu Ray release. I'm getting it and I'm sure it'll be worth every penny.

  75. TJPC

    I have been in theatres where the words “Overture” and the word “intermission” were projected on the close curtains. As each ended, the curtains slowly opened.

    TJPC

    This was seen years before digital projection. In Fantasia I have seen the orchestra assemble and tune up as projected on closed curtains.

    They were probably using their slide projector if you saw 'intermission" and 'overture" on the curtains. In all my years of handling film, I've never seen a print with an overture where it was anything other than black leader (other than West Side Story and My Fair Lady, I'm sure there are others, but those two are with graphics/images and not text – and neither said 'overture').

    Of course, you would see "intermission" as the last image fades out or coming in on its own after the last image of the first part, You would never see "intermission" after the break.. During the roadshow era, the intermission card was usually timed for the average travel length of the curtain to close in a large venue (I knew projectionists who would adjust the drum on their curtain motor to ensure the curtain speed would find it closing completely before the "intermission" card faded out). I never came across an "Entr'Acte".printed into a film print either, always black leader. Same with exit music.

  76. MartinP.

    I just read all of the posts here. Seems to me there's a lot of missing the forest for the trees talk. So many complaints about some Entr'acte and Exit Music missing, music that was, mind you, not listened to by a majority of theatre goers because they were leaving, or getting back to their seats after the intermission, etc. And yet, not one complaint with overture titles that were added for home video releases. If you're going to be an absolutist, then shouldn't you object to those things, too, no? Kino has put out this fabulous looking Blu-Ray according to the review and I daresay are not raking in the money for doing so and with all the criticism here I daresay why would they want to keep pursuing these ventures with all the thanks they get.

    I saw Sweet Charity a few years ago at a summer long retrospective of Universal films at the Billy WIlder Theatre in Westwood. I've seen the movie on home media many times, but this was the first time in a theatre. Frankly, I don't even recall now if there was an overture, intermission, entr'acte or exit music. Kudos to all of you who remember such things from fifty years ago.

    Kino: Thank you for this new Blu Ray release. I'm getting it and I'm sure it'll be worth every penny.

    No doubts about the our being lucky over this 4K restoration on "Sweet Charity", Kino making it all possible and all the work performed by Universal. None of these attributes are to be dismissed nor taken for granted; as I dare say that all of us here are grateful and very excited in our eagerness to own such an upgrade. Perhaps with so much perfection this is exactly why we're a bit frustrated.

    To highlight, some of us here are miffed about the marketing and usage of the term "Roadshow"; as this was either Universal or Kino who used this in their pre-publicity and pre-order junkets. "Roadshow" by definition; especially in a musical; specifically includes an Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and Exit Music. This is part of the "Roadshow" experience and format. True, some aren't interested in sitting through these interludes and want to skip right to the film. And that is their option and advantage with a tap of their chapter search remote to skip on through what does not hold their interests. But, as far as options go, those who do enjoy the musical scoring and arrangements; and also prefer the contextual aspects of a "Roadshow" from beginning to end; are now without this option.

    it is not the fault of film buffs when they become disconcerted about such omissions; nor are they being ungrateful; but, as it is, our expectations become raised some 3 months in advance due to the faults of a marketing tool that touts the term "Roadshow" and then reveals itself as not being such. In fact, what we're being given is the antithesis of a "Roadshow"; which is known as the "General Release" version. Had we been told 3 months in advance that this would be the "General Release" version – but restored as a 4K scan – then our reactions would have been vastly different. No doubt, in the 3 months leading up to the BD release, we would still be posting our wishes for the Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and Exit Music; but our anticipations of what the true product and disc contains would not be greeted on this week with disappointments, questions and this unpleasant surprise. Just imagine it to be Christmas and for three months your parents promised you a 10-speed bike and on the morning of the 25th you found under the tree a 3-Speed. As beautiful as that bike may be – and expensive – it may still take you a bit of time to warm up and adjust from what you were promised and what you actually received . As it is, we did not post a hope for a "Roadshow" version that was never to be; it was Universal who used the term "Roadshow". It is more than natural to be disappointed that this very product produced was not the item "as advertised". Universal did not have to use the term "Roadshow". But they did. And they know full well what the term means and what it means to us. Allowances could feasibly be made in deference to an oversight in their labs; but only if they postpone the cited street date release of their "Sweet Charity" discs, recall the stock and fix the errors of omissions. The other solution to this false advertising would be to lower their MSRP asking price of $40 and; with due diligence; replace the slips cases and existing text that denotes that their product is a "Roadshow"; for this "Sweet Charity" is actually the "General Release". As for the existing 4K scan and its bravura reviews, we are more than excited and grateful; but not about the false advertising. And for that, we have nothing to apologize for.

  77. David Weicker

    No wonder physical discs are dying out.

    “We demand that you take it back until you give us those 25 seconds of music that aren’t really part of the film”.

    Actually, its about seven minutes of music. And its also about accuracy in advertising.
    But, like I said, if they can't fix it then just lower the price and replace the "Roadshow" slipcovers.
    Meanwhile, and for the record, I fully intend to purchase and support the work that was performed.

  78. David Weicker

    No wonder physical discs are dying out.

    “We demand that you take it back until you give us those 25 seconds of music that aren’t really part of the film”.

    I understand what you mean by this, and that's fine.

    But yes, it IS part of the film as originally released in its ROADSHOW run, and as advertised by the studio for this Blu-ray release.

  79. Charles Smith

    I understand what you mean by this, and that's fine.

    But yes, it IS part of the film as originally released in its ROADSHOW run, and as advertised by the studio for this Blu-ray release.

    What Charles Smith said. As he wrote it better and more succinctly. And with that, I rest my case.:)

  80. This discussion about the My Fair Lady overture is a bit odd . The entire overture from the stage production is utilized however the credits are shown starting about half way through it. So whoever did the credits realized they did not have enough to fill out the entire overture and it being so overwhelmingly internationally famous knew they had to include the whole thing. So they timed it beautifully to start them with the soaring 'and oh that towering feeling.'
    So the overture begins without credits for a few minutes with the Beaton photos but then continues on with them. I don't know why you're lumping it with WSS which is a completely different thing and that film ENDS with the entire credit sequence. Completely different from MFL and just about every other film made.

  81. Of course it could have been Beaton or Lerner or Previn or Cukor who came up with the idea. Anyway it was a terrific one along with the choreographed Covent Garden early morning sequence which never fails to amaze me.

    Sorry to hear about the missing music from SC. I'm with those who consider it a blunder. I'm not surprised at the pups at Universal making such a mistake but you would think the people at Kino would know better

  82. PMF

    The other solution to this false advertising would be to lower their MSRP asking price of $40 …

    I understand part of the roadshow experience was paying more…so there's that. 😉

    You can purchase it from Kino-Lorber right now for $23.97, but I suppose you mean you want the MSRP lowered so you could get it for like $17 or something? A roadshow release also had programs, too, but I guess that is okay? Or not? And since those overture title cards, for example, weren't in the original road show showings…they should or should not be on a Blu Ray release? I might sound like I'm being a wiseguy, but I really am interested and want to know the depths of the accuracy warranted for future reference.

  83. I would only say that this is a welcome release, whether it sticks to the definition of “roadshow” or not. And I also would hate these criticisms to stop companies from bringing us these releases at all. I forked over plenty for the French release and will happily get this one without demanding a lower price over this kind of semantics. I also get how this is important to maintain what many consider the integrity of releases. I suppose it has to do with picking battles.
    I have understood that sound elements were lost for many films at Universal (including “Millie”). Maybe this was all they had that they felt usable. I know, I know…then don’t torture people with hope by using the word “roadshow”…
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire

  84. Yes, why would a fan of a musical want seven minutes of music that was specifically composed, transcribed, scored and played by the orchestra to be included like it was in the movie theater upon its release? And was included on earlier home video editions. It’s really nonsensical, isn’t it? 🙄

  85. If Kino is not aware of this already that shows extreme incompetence in terms of film restoration. I hope this was a choice they made for whatever arcane reason. Imagine if a restored roadshow film musical were missing a 7 minute musical number and the restorers had no idea?

  86. roxy1927

    If Kino is not aware of this already that shows extreme incompetence in terms of film restoration. I hope this was a choice they made for whatever arcane reason. Imagine if a restored roadshow film musical were missing a 7 minute musical number and the restorers had no idea?

    Well I mean, last time Sweet Charity came out on dvd it was missing a full minute of footage. And Universal didn't know. Guess who knew? Me, that's who. I was the one who first pointed it out right here in this forum.

  87. Here was an interesting thread we did on the deleted scene. way back in 2006. Contrary to what I said at the time, I think I did notice the missing minute when I first played the dvd. But it was one of those things that I thought about after viewing the whole movie. I was like…hmm…where was that part where Oscar asks her how many men she'd been with? And then I thought. oh well, I must have been distracted during that line or something. I didn't think about it again until Chuck posted this, 3 years later: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/sweet-charity-dvd-missing-over-a-minute.241313/

  88. Ethan Riley

    Here was an interesting thread we did on the deleted scene. way back in 2006. Contrary to what I said at the time, I think I did notice the missing minute when I first played the dvd. But it was one of those things that I thought about after viewing the whole movie. I was like…hmm…where was that part where Oscar asks her how many men she'd been with? And then I thought. oh well, I must have been distracted during that line or something. I didn't think about it again until Chuck posted this, 3 years later: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/sweet-charity-dvd-missing-over-a-minute.241313/

    And it’s such a weird, arbitrary cut. I still can’t figure out why it was made.

  89. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but as I recall wasn't there a mix up in the DVD roadshow release of Cleopatra (1963). It was a two disc affair and the entr'acte was placed right after the intermission on the first disc so that disc 2 which comes after the intermission didn't have the lead in entr'acte. Fox sent out replacement discs for the second disc with the entr'acte in the proper place. Or am I imagining this? 😳 Anyway, the Cleopatra blu ray has all the Roadshow bits in their proper place.

  90. I read that somewhere and yes it was a surprising mistake but it was corrected. With Charity they might not think it worth it and the anal roadshow nuts will just have to see their therapist and deal with it

    The Millie that somebody mentioned has me concerned. I saw a complete roadshow print at the AstorPlaza for an Aids benefit and I bet the Hunter estate has one preserved in the archives. He insisted on having it as a roadshow where George and Julie wanted it cut and premiered as a cont perf release.

  91. MartinP.

    I understand part of the roadshow experience was paying more…so there's that. 😉

    You can purchase it from Kino-Lorber right now for $23.97, but I suppose you mean you want the MSRP lowered so you could get it for like $17 or something? A roadshow release also had programs, too, but I guess that is okay? Or not? And since those overture title cards, for example, weren't in the original road show showings…they should or should not be on a Blu Ray release? I might sound like I'm being a wiseguy, but I really am interested and want to know the depths of the accuracy warranted for future reference.

    No, I mean $30.00 as an MSRP; after all, a 4K restoration was performed upon "Sweet Charity" and should be paid for and supported.
    As for all other topics, I've already expressed my opinions and rested my case.

  92. Mark Mayes

    And I also would hate these criticisms to stop companies from bringing us these releases at all.

    Yes, I would hate to have my lack of purchase of this flawed release from preventing Universal from providing a future flawed release of THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE.

  93. rdimucci

    Yes, I would hate to have my lack of purchase of this flawed release from preventing Universal from providing a future flawed release of THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE.

    Yeah, a serious flaw like this could become the standard!

  94. PMF

    No, I mean $30.00 as an MSRP;

    That's what I was getting at PMF. It's $40.00 now and they're selling it online at their website for $23.97 so a $30.00 MSRP would probably get you a price of $17.00 or so.

    PMF

    As for all other "Roadshow" topics, I've already expressed my opinions, rested my case and will defer to other posters who feel the same.

    You expressed your opinions, but you didn't answer my questions I posed. So there's that.

    I've never seen a Blu-ray release with such a great review get so trashed.

    The commenters are reviewing it as: "There's got to be something better than this."

    Forest for the trees I repeat.

    This film was a huge failure at the box office. I don't know how it translates to today, but the film cost $20 million to make, but made only $8 million at the box office. According to Variety the film earned rentals of $4,025,000 in the US and Canada.

    At this rate the same thing is going to happen to Kino-Lorber.

  95. MartinP.

    That's what I was getting at PMF. It's $40.00 now and they're selling it online at their website for $23.97 so a $30.00 MSRP would probably get you a price of $17.00 or so.

    You expressed your opinions, but you didn't answer my questions I posed. So there's that.

    I've never seen a Blu-ray release with such a great review get so trashed.

    The commenters are reviewing it as: "There's got to be something better than this."

    Forest for the trees I repeat.

    This film was a huge failure at the box office. I don't know how it translates to today, but the film cost $20 million to make, but made only $8 million at the box office. According to Variety the film earned rentals of $4,025,000 in the US and Canada.

    At this rate the same thing is going to happen to Kino-Lorber.

    Hyberole much? You’ve NEVER seen a release get so trashed?? No one is “trashing” the release. Simply commenting on the facts of what was not included. And I believe the vast majority of us criticizing the omissions have stated we’re still buying it to support the release.

    As far as the success of the film at the box office, it’s irrelevant. Universal has released it at least once on every home video format, in multiple regions, so there must be money to be made on the title. And Kino is a business run by adults. They’re not releasing anything as a bit of charity, pun not intended.

  96. MartinP.

    That's what I was getting at PMF. It's $40.00 now and they're selling it online at their website for $23.97 so a $30.00 MSRP would probably get you a price of $17.00 or so.

    Do not misinterpret or re-interpret my words. When I say $30.00, I mean $30.00. If Kino chooses at this moment in time to sell it at a pre-order price of $23.97, that's entirely up to them and has not a thing to do with my posts. But, based on your sliding scale of prices, then fine, let them keep it at $40.00 so they can re-coup on the 4K scan and restoration work that was performed. Again, such work needs to be supported.

    MartinP.

    You expressed your opinions, but you didn't answer my questions I posed. So there's that.

    Which questions? You mean the ones in which you've asked to be educated on what a Roadshow is? I didn't take it seriously, because:

    A) You claim to be interested in learning what a Roadshow is; yet, you seem well aware of the days of their higher pricing.
    B) You also seem well aware that programs were available.
    C) And somewhere you describe how many patrons – perhaps even yourself – were never interested in listening to the Overture, Entr'acte and Exit Music; and, therefore, headed straight to the lobby.

    Clearly, you understand the "Roadshow" concept; and whether you were being literal or lampoonish, I am not here to educate anyone on "Roadshow" concepts in theatrical venues or "Roadshow" concepts on BD discs for the cinephiles. I'm fine with anyone's option to skip the music; be it going to the lobby or chapter skipping from their remotes. That's your option. But for those who do have an interest, our option with "Sweet Charity" was removed. The Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and Exit Music are on prior formats; so its not as if its suddenly gone missing. Truly, I think you may know more about the "Roadshow" concept than you are letting on; but if not, then I suggest you read archived articles within HTF on go on-line to other sources for more answers to your questions.

    MartinP.

    Forest for the trees I repeat.[…]

    Once again, I am citing what Universal and/or Kino Lorber had advertised 3-months in advance.
    Their advertisements cited "Roadshow" and it turned out not to be so. That's on them.
    The decline of any product begins with a distributor who falsely advertises.
    Once again, had they advertised a full 4K restoration of the "General Release", then we would've been prepared.
    I am not responsible; nor anyone here; for our reactions to a "Roadshow" hype that never was.
    Finally, and I hope this answers your question; a "Roadshow" in a home theater format is defined by the audible presence of an Overture, Intermission, Entr'acte and Exit Music that may have existed within the original presentations during their original theatrical runs.
    And if one may think that I'm being too exacting, then I suggest readers swing on by the "2001: A Space Odyssey" 4K/UHD threads;
    as there were many heated discussions about a few frames that had a hard cut versus a fade-out/fade-in moment. Interestingly, Warner Brothers rectified it; whereas we "Roadshow" nuts are discussing 7 plus minutes where "Sweet Charity" is concerned. It is doubtful that our historical discussions would lead to any decline of physical media; as within our topics and larger scope of it all still purchase, support and revel in the releases put forth.
    NOTE: Kino Lorber has nothing to worry about; as we here are your torch bearers; but ask that "Roadshow" simply be removed from the advertisements.

  97. Surely the people at Kino are reading this. I hope when they decide what they will do which may be nothing as I imagine to dump the run at this point will be disastrous they make some sort of announcement. Still I would be interested in why it happened. A mistake seems incredible when as noted former releases had the music.

  98. roxy1927

    Surely the people at Kino are reading this. I hope when they decide what they will do which may be nothing as I imagine to dump the run at this point will be disastrous they make some sort of announcement. Still I would be interested in why it happened. A mistake seems incredible when as noted former releases had the music.

    Well, I posed the question directly to the Kino Insider in that thread, but it was not acknowledged. It seems safe to say the omissions were probably a choice as opposed to an accident. But either way, this will most likely be its last home video release so its a bit of a missed opportunity.

  99. It should be perfectly acceptable to express disappointment in something being left out of a release that is touted as a "4K Restoration of the Roadshow Edition" — especially at 40 bucks. If we can't discuss these issues here, then where? I believe most of us who are concerned have actually already pre-ordered this title.

  100. TJPC

    Some of us already have it!:)

    …and I have no doubts that it looks and sounds spectacular.
    Despite the omissions, I wouldn't miss out on this 4K restoration for a second.
    I pre-ordered "Sweet Charity", as well; and have no intentions of changing that.
    TJPC, do tell us; is it a beauty or what?

  101. Just to play "Devil's Advocate" here…
    I wish the missing music was there. I love listening to these musical sequences in 5.1. The overture at the beginning of FUNNY GIRL, for example, sounds glorious.
    No, in terms of audio this is not the "roadshow", but it is also NOT the general release version. I saw the film in 70mm here in Toronto when it first came out. As was the norm, several months later it was reissued at "regular prices" to lots of theatres. I went with a friend and still remember being shocked that pieces had been edited out – "My Personal Property" was gone, the last section of "I Love to Cry at Weddings", the call Charity makes from the phonebooth at the end of the film, among other pieces. So, I am guessing this is why they are calling it the "Roadshow" although, again, I would like the music to be there as well. Just so you know…..

  102. warnerbro

    How did y'all get it early?

    I have no idea. I pre-ordered it way back and about a month ago I got a message that said they were having trouble getting it and did I want to cancel. I tried to cancel, but because it was part of another order for free shipping that I already received they would not let me. I let it ride and then got a notice it would arrive August 15. It arrived August 1 or 2nd.

    Yes, the quality is pristine.

  103. Yes everyone who loves the film will get it and be happy it looks and sounds great still I’m very curious as to why these decisions are made. If it’s a ‘we didn’t know!’ which sometimes does happen you kind of think ‘well why didn’t you? Any fan of the film could have told you.’ Sometimes I believe it’s simply a matter of not doing enough research. And it doesn’t even require all that much. I’ve always thought the end of the film quite beautiful(it should have been cloying but the underscoring and MacLaine’s performance are pitch perfect) so that a postlude after that boom shot of MacLaine disappearing back into the city from the refuge of Central Park with ‘And she lived hopefully ever after.’ would have been really wonderful.

  104. Heresy I know, but I much prefer the happy ending on disc 2. I always felt dissatisfied with the Roadshow ending. Things like that always make me question why I bothered to watch a movie in the first place. It of course is more realistic, but do I go to the movies because they are realistic?

  105. TJPC

    Heresy I know, but I much prefer the happy ending on disc 2. I always felt dissatisfied with the Roadshow ending. Things like that always make me question why I bothered to watch a movie in the first place. It of course is more realistic, but do I go to the movies because they are realistic?

    Well, of course the downer ending on stage is even worse as Oscar pushes her into the lake before he runs away, making a bookend to Charlie doing that to her in the first scene. I LOVE the downbeat ending, but I’m glad it’s not exactly like in the stage show.

  106. GlennF

    I went with a friend and still remember being shocked that pieces had been edited out – "My Personal Property" was gone, the last section of "I Love to Cry at Weddings", the call Charity makes from the phonebooth at the end of the film, among other pieces. Probably to make the film shorter and fit in more screenings. So, I am guessing this is why they are calling it the "Roadshow" although, again, I would like the music to be there as well. Just so you know…..

    How did the film open without that song? I mean, it runs right into the bridge scene and I can't imagine that being cut. Did it begin with Charity entering the dance hall?

  107. Well in Cabiria he threatens to kill her if she doesn't hand over everything she posseses in the world and she literally begs him not to kill her. The flower power roadshow ending is a celebration of life in comparison.

  108. TJPC

    Heresy I know, but I much prefer the happy ending on disc 2. I always felt dissatisfied with the Roadshow ending. Things like that always make me question why I bothered to watch a movie in the first place. It of course is more realistic, but do I go to the movies because they are realistic?

    You sound like my sister. Every time I recommend a movie to her, she grills me to make sure there's a "happy" ending and she refuses to see any film about dysfunctional families. It's gotten to the point, I know not to recommend certain movies to her so I'll tell her, "I love it but it's not your kind of movie." Personally, I tend to favor darker movies that espouse life is s**t then you die (homicide, suicide, drug overdose etc.)

  109. What downer ending? She'd jettisoned all the toxic people in her life–especially Oscar–and moved on. And she lived "hopefully" ever after, walking down the street with a smile on her face. How is this an unhappy ending?

  110. Mark B

    How did the film open without that song? I mean, it runs right into the bridge scene and I can't imagine that being cut. Did it begin with Charity entering the dance hall?

    Sorry, don't remember that much. On IMDB where they have alternate versions they talk about some of the other cuts. "The Heavyweight" dance was definitely another one and part of "I'm a Brass Band" and "There's Gotta Be Something Better Than This", which really pissed me off as it is perhaps my favourite number.

  111. Ethan Riley

    What downer ending? She'd jettisoned all the toxic people in her life–especially Oscar–and moved on. And she lived "hopefully" ever after, walking down the street with a smile on her face. How is this an unhappy ending?

    Charity is a born victim. One of those poor good hearted loving souls that are continually taken advantage of. While it's a good thing that she's still able to have hope in her heart instead of turning into a bitter cynic, we all know that there's another Oscar around the corner to take advantage of her.

  112. One thing else about this new set. There is a commentary that mostly is very interesting, although she does go on far to much about how Charity compares with the original Cabiria. The downside is that the woman has probably one of the most annoying voices I’ve ever heard. I usually love an incisive commentary, but I was only able to listen to her in increments of 30 minutes or so, and will certainly not listen to it again.

  113. But Oscar is the one man who doesn't try to take advantage of her where up until then she had nothing but men using her. That's why the musical exists. She lives with hope but she'll go back to her roommates and the ballroom. She knows nothing else. She'll just be a sad aging taxi dancer still thinking life has some happiness in store for her. What appealed so much to her in Oscar his 'average normalcy' is what makes him turn on her so cruelly in the end. She really does not fit into his life, he knows it and he'll never get beyond her past. People try their best but there is no redemption like there would be in a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical. Still I think it's a great ending. Far better than the appalling one in Cabiria or the cynical one in the stage musical. The alternate ending was never used commercially in the states as far as I know and would be a betrayal of all that went before. The roadshow ending was always the only ending. Sad endings can be as satisfying as happy ones as a number of musicals have shown. I like happy endings too but do you really want Tony alive at the end of WSS or Streisand working out her differences with Nickie Arnstein?

  114. Ethan Riley

    What downer ending? She'd jettisoned all the toxic people in her life–especially Oscar–and moved on. And she lived "hopefully" ever after, walking down the street with a smile on her face. How is this an unhappy ending?

    Because Charity didn't join up with the Flower Power hippies, nor did she recognize that Bud Cort had eyes for her.:)

  115. TJPC

    One other thing about this new set. There is a commentary that mostly is very interesting, although she does go on far too much about how Charity compares with the original Cabiria, which I have never seen.

    The downside is that the woman has probably one of the most annoying voices I’ve ever heard. I usually love an incisive commentary, but I was only able to listen to her in increments of 30 minutes or so, and will certainly not listen to it again.

    This best describes how I feel about a couple of my own posts upon this thread.:roll:

    Bottom Line:
    I can't wait to see "Charity".
    I've waited years for a BD of this, but a 4K restoration, as well? Sweet.
    …and more than one could ever Hope for.

    [Curtain closes. Lights fade up.]
    P.S. During a "Roadshow" this is usually where the Exit Music is heard.:D

  116. Why don't they have Julie Kirgo do commentaries anymore? She's awesome. They just have her write something for the liner notes these days. Her voice is awesome, friendly, and she's very witty and informative. Some of the new commentaries on Kino lately have been disappointing.

  117. warnerbro

    Why don't they have Julie Kirgo do commentaries anymore? She's awesome. They just have her write something for the liner notes these days. Her voice is awesome, friendly, and she's very witty and informative. Some of the new commentaries on Kino lately have been disappointing.

    She and Nick were both scheduled to do the commentary on this. With Nick’s passing she felt she could not do it at that time and offered to write the booklet.

    I do hope that after some time passes she will doing her outstanding commentaries again.

  118. ahollis

    […]I do hope that after some time passes she will doing her outstanding commentaries again.

    Yes to that, and agreed, ahollis.
    I could only imagine with Ms. Kirgo's loss that doing a commentary would feel just way too off, at this time in her life.
    Think Ginger without Fred; or Comden without Styne; or May without Nichols.
    The Nick and Julie chemistry could not be ignored and was so charmingly infectious;
    and magic such as this does not happen every day.

  119. Needless to say, I am quite impassioned about the orchestrations of Mr. Ralph Burns.
    I have been for over 45 years;
    and, therefore, had surmised it to be a given that we would hear anew his magnificent scorings unlike ever before.
    Now, with that said; along with my far too many posts that most certainly reached ad nauseum;
    along with a jealous guardianship towards this musical genius;
    I must close and end this week on its more brighter or upbeat notes:

    a) We've finally got Charity on Blu
    b) We've got a never to be expected 4K restoration that beats the band both visually and sonically.
    c) We've also got an unexpected essay from Julie Kirgo.

    Where am I going?
    To that place of purchase and taking stock in all these magnificent gains that had never been there before.

    Cheers to all and have a great weekend !!:thumbs-up-smiley:

  120. PMF

    Needless to say, I am quite impassioned about the orchestrations of Mr. Ralph Burns.
    I have been for over 45 years;
    and, therefore, had surmised it to be a given that we would hear anew his magnificent scorings unlike ever before.
    Now, with that said; along with my far too many posts that most certainly reached ad nauseum;
    along with a jealous guardianship towards this musical genius;
    I must close and end this week on its more brighter or upbeat notes:

    a) We've finally got Charity on Blu
    b) We've got a never to be expected 4K restoration that beats the band both visually and sonically.
    c) We've also got an unexpected essay from Julie Kirgo.

    Where am I going?
    To that place of purchase and taking stock in all these magnificent gains that had never been there before.

    Cheers to all and have a great weekend !!:thumbs-up-smiley:

    Not to mention the fact that some people like me have never seen this film (our copy arrives Aug 20th) so whether this release is a real roadshow version or a partial roadshow release isn’t a big concern. The important thing is that we get to enjoy this work of cinematic art in the best quality ever since it’s theatrical run.

  121. I think, having listened to the entire commentary, I am now even more critical. You really have very little need to watch the movie when the commentary is on at all. There is almost no direct reference to the movie. It might as well be a podcast.

    It is on the disc with the alternate cut, and I was hoping she would explain how it is different, or how it came about, but nada. She is not too bad at History, but constantly makes references to
    other movies, directors, etc. etc. and you are frustrated as things go by you would like to know about with no reference.

    Sorry, not to be too harsh, but now picture this in a whiny cockney voice that seems to pronounce everything wrong.

  122. I listened to about 30 minutes of the commentary tonight and was pretty disappointed. There was a lot of stating of the obvious and apparently reading actors filmographies on IMDb. I also found the commentators' voice extremely hard to listen to.

  123. Mikey1969

    I listened to about 30 minutes of the commentary tonight and was pretty disappointed. There was a lot of stating of the obvious and apparently reading actors filmographies on IMDb. I also found the commentators' voice extremely hard to listen to.

    Kat Ellinger "film historian" – one of the great no-nothing amateurs who do this sort of thing. Where do they come from, these "film historians?" Her voice is, as everyone is saying, beyond irritating, and all she knows is what she's read on the Internet or in a book (well, books, doubtful). Nick and Julie loved this movie and their commentary would have been lovely. I would like to have done one, frankly.

  124. David Weicker

    “We demand that you take it back until you give us those 25 seconds of music that aren’t really part of the film”.

    Most of you know this, but in these days of digital everything, I'll bet there are some who don't: the overture, entr'acte, and exit music were, in fact, a physical part of the roadshow print. The music played from the soundtrack of film right on the reels with the rest of the movie but that had a blacked-out frame. When you put on reel 1 of the roadshow SWEET CHARITY, you heard the overture.

    It's not like they played a record or something.

  125. I am going to be “that guy” one more time here and state the obvious: this is NOT a 4K restoration. That is an overused (and incorrectly used) word these days to referred to digitally spiffed up transfers, but its especially wrong in this case in that the film was not restored to its original roadshow version and length.

    I’m still supporting the release, but it’s neither the Roadshow version nor restored. Even with the missing dialogue from the marriage license bureau scene added back in, it still clocks in at a shorter runing time than the dvd.

  126. The worst commentator on discs is Dr. Drew Casper. Thank goodness I don't see him on many discs these days, but for a time he seemed to be the go to guy for commentary tracks. He was completely inept.

  127. Jim*Tod

    The worst commentator on discs is Dr. Drew Casper. Thank goodness I don't see him on many discs these days, but for a time he seemed to be the go to guy for commentary tracks. He was completely inept.

    Sorry to correct you but the worst commentator ever is David Del Valle. His commentaries consist of more unsubstantiated gossip than interesting facts. I suppose if one likes to "dish", his commentary may prove entertaining but I, for one, find gossips big bores. But hey, that's just me.

  128. Thomas T

    Sorry to correct you but the worst commentator ever is David Del Valle. His commentaries consist of more unsubstantiated gossip than interesting facts. I suppose if one likes to "dish", his commentary may prove entertaining but I, for one, find gossips big bores. But hey, that's just me.

    Thomas, not just you.

  129. I dislike Richard Schickel's commentaries the most, especially for films where he is just "winging it" (i.e. talking off the top of his head without research notes). He makes frequent mistakes and is obviously just coasting on his reputation. (BTW, I think his "The Men Who Made the Movies" series was brilliant.)

    But I also second Dr. Drew Casper as one commentator I especially dread to see listed as a participant.

  130. Is this the 149 minute version or the 154?

    Also who did the musical adaption for the film and the arrangements of all the original music in the movie of which there is a fair amount?

    And if this is being released in stereo how could it not be the roadshow print with ALL the music? General release films in that era were released in mono. And of all films I doubt Charity would be the exception. It was practically dumped into general release as cheaply as possible. Unless you are saying the original elements were cut down for the general release and the rest tossed.

  131. But then if you've got all the complete musical numbers along with missing bits it has to be from a roadshow print. How could it not? And therefore how could it be missing ANY music when all of that was on the film print and was played with closed curtains?

    Why isn't Kino responding to any of this? Are they being caught with their pants down?

  132. roxy1927

    Is this the 149 minute version or the 154?

    Also who did the musical adaption for the film and the arrangements of all the original music in the movie of which there is a fair amount?

    And if this is being released in stereo how could it not be the roadshow print with ALL the music? General release films in that era were released in mono. And of all films I doubt Charity would be the exception. It was practically dumped into general release as cheaply as possible. Unless you are saying the original elements were cut down for the general release and the rest tossed.

    Optical sound track negs do not simply appear.

  133. Another terrible commentary is the one for VERTIGO by William Friedkin. His connection to Hitchcock and the film is tenuous at best, and he appears to know very little. He also sounds bored or like he just rolled out of bed.
    I'm holding on to my old DVD (the one where they made poor Jimmy Stewart look remarkably like Bela Lugosi playing Dracula on the cover) for the far superior commentary featuring Robert Harris and James Katz, among others.

    Matt Hough

    I dislike Richard Schickel's commentaries the most, especially for films where he is just "winging it" (i.e. talking off the top of his head without research notes). He makes frequent mistakes and is obviously just coasting on his reputation. (BTW, I think his "The Men Who Made the Movies" series was brilliant.)

    But I also second Dr. Drew Casper as one commentator I especially dread to see listed as a participant.

  134. And yes, the use of the word "restoration" for every damn 2K or 4K transfer is a joke. Doing a transfer in 2K or 4K is – wait for it – doing a transfer, not RESTORING a film. I doubt Sweet Charity needed restoring, if that word actually has any meaning left.

  135. haineshisway

    Nick and Julie loved this movie and their commentary would have been lovely. I would like to have done one, frankly.

    I would hope for you and Julie Kirgo finding one to do together someday.
    Of course this film would have been the ideal one. But there will be others.

  136. roxy1927

    I'm not sure what you are saying. 'Optical sound track negs do not simply appear.' What does this mean exactly? I'm referring to roadshow prints. They would be on the print itself no?

    What I'm saying is that before one has an optical track neg, one must have mag elements. For SC, those elements would presumably be stereo, a simple cut x-copy of the original tracks.

    We also do not know if there were not mag-opt prints of the short version. It may have been an exception, along with others.

    As to the stereo overture, intermission, entr'acte, ends and play-outs, they were generally not a part of the main body of the film.

    Especially in 70mm, they were printed as separate units. Same on most 35 productions. Black leader would be striped, sounded, and ready to cut together with the body of the film.

    So…

    If one is trying to reproduce the roadshow format, one would have to find all of the pieces, and then deal with them.

  137. haineshisway

    And yes, the use of the word "restoration" for every damn 2K or 4K transfer is a joke. Doing a transfer in 2K or 4K is – wait for it – doing a transfer, not RESTORING a film. I doubt Sweet Charity needed restoring, if that word actually has any meaning left.

    The word has zero meaning left. It has been raped, plundered and used for odd and sundry purposes.

    It's meaningless, unless uttered by the correct person.

  138. Ok I assumed if a road show print existed the overture would be on the first reel before the images started and the exit music on the final reel after the images ended the projectionist or whomever opening and closing the curtains at the proper time.

  139. roxy1927

    Ok I assumed if a road show print existed the overture would be on the first reel before the images started and the exit music on the final reel after the images ended the projectionist or whomever opening and closing the curtains at the proper time.

    You're correct. It is. But those prints are cut together and conformed print by print.

    As an example, the first reel of Lawrence was made from multiple rolls of positive film.

    Academy Leader – removed from the head of Reel 1A…

    and cut to the head of the Overture / and or overture with prologue.

    The Overture is then cut to the studio logo.

    The Studio logo is cut to the head of the main title sequence.

    The main title sequence is cut to reel 1A.

    Reel 1A is cut to the head of Reel 1B

    And that's how a projection print is born.

  140. What is your opinion on possibly why the entr'acte and exit music were left out when they were available in other formats? By the way the film always looked especially good to me from when I first saw it in the early 70's on a double bill with Ulzana's Raid.

  141. roxy1927

    What is your opinion on possibly why the entr'acte and exit music were left out when they were available in other formats? By the way the film always looked especially good to me from when I first saw it in the early 70's on a double bill with Ulzana's Raid.

    My thoughts?

    It was either on accident or on purpose.

  142. The ownership of Universal has changed hands several times since 1990. Its parent company MCA went to Matsushita (owners of JVC trying to match Sony's then-recent Columbia acquisition), Seagrams', Barry Diller's acquisition of the TV studio, Vivendi, GE (making it sibling of NBC), and then its most recent sale to Comcast. The laserdisc that had the exit music was during the MCA Home Video era, IIRC, so it was before all that. Maybe they just plain forgot and whoever remembered had gotten downsized or retired over the years.

  143. And Kino is still at it – Picture Mommy Dead – NEW 4K RESTORATION! No, it isn't. It's a new 4K TRANSFER and from WHAT? I can do a 4K transfer of some 8mm film I found in my garage. So bored of the hyperbole and never forgetting the "4K" RESTORATION of Irma La Douce, the poster child of a transfer with someone at the helm who has no idea what the color of the film should actually look like. Nope.

  144. And Kino is still at it – Picture Mommy Dead – NEW 4K RESTORATION! No, it isn't. It's a new 4K TRANSFER and from WHAT? I can do a 4K transfer of some 8mm film I found in my garage. So bored of the hyperbole and never forgetting the "4K" RESTORATION of Irma La Douce, the poster child of a transfer with someone at the helm who has no idea what the color of the film should actually look like. Nope.

  145. Song of the South is a wonderful film. I saw it a few times in the 70's when there was already controversy about it. It really is a scandal the way the Disney Co has treated it. You know that though if they do release it there will have to be a very annoying condescending disclaimer before the film begins something along the lines of 'We apologize profusely if this film offends anyone but people back then well they didn't know any better and think how much better we are.'

  146. I would think this is more on Universal as opposed to Kino, whether it be a deliberate choice or an accident. It seems to me Kino can only work with whatever elements Universal provides to them, yes? And this version mirrors exactly what Universal put on its own French blu-ray release.

  147. Yesterday I received the Film Forum's upcoming calendar in the mail and 2 Special Screenings of a "new 4K restoration" of Sweet Charity are scheduled for October. Along with the film, there will be "2 Alternate Endings" shown.

    Since there are 2 versions of the film included on the bluray, is there an additional alternate ending included on this disc?

  148. Richard M S

    Yesterday I received the Film Forum's upcoming calendar in the mail and 2 Special Screenings of a "new 4K restoration" of Sweet Charity are scheduled for October. Along with the film, there will be "2 Alternate Endings" shown.

    Since there are 2 versions of the film included on the bluray, is there an additional alternate ending included on this disc?

    No.

  149. JohnMor

    The calendar says “With 2 Alternate Endings,” not 2 *additional* alternate endings.

    That's redundant. One of the endings is not alternate, therefore there are either two endings or one alternate ending. Two alternate endings means three endings.

  150. Mark-P

    That's redundant. One of the endings is not alternate, therefore there are either two endings or one alternate ending. Two alternate endings means three endings.

    No, it could simply be the proper, literal definition. “Alternate” does not mean “not original.” We use it that way, but that is not the definition. “2 alternate endings” can literally mean 2 endings that can be alternated. Whereas if they had said “Includes Alternate Ending” it could be construed as that showing is featuring *only* what we call the happy ending.

  151. No, after 20+ years of going to Film Forum, it means 3 endings. One original and two alternates.

    If however your literal definition is correct, I can assure you, my fellow New Yorkers who are Film Forum regulars will make their displeasure known. (If you have ever been perceived to have munched popcorn too loudly there, you know exactly what I mean.)

    In any case, the correct answer will be known in October.

  152. The "Heavyweight" and The "Big Finish" music in the sequence at the restaurant is out-of-synch with the dancers if the same 4K master used on the French Blu-ray was repurposed for Kino's release (as it seems that it was with the same black screen and no audio for the intermission and missing entr'acte and exit music).

    This concerns me as future digital screenings and releases will probably still have these errors if people don't speak out.

    I don't have the Kino release and don't see any need to purchase it as I had the French release, but can maybe Robert Harris view those three minutes (from around 29 minutes to 32 minutes into the film) and see if the music and movements seem out-of-synch?

  153. haineshisway

    My loathing of Dr. Drew Casper knew no limits. They're all stupid poseurs who made a nice little side living doing these inane commentaries or participating as talking heads.

    Try listening to Lee Gambian on the commentary for The Reincarnation of Peter Proud. And yet he's doing more tracks for Kino. 🙁

  154. JohnMor

    I recently watched my French blu-ray thru twice in one week. No sync problems on the number that I could tell.

    I recall that when 7 Brides For 7 Brothers came out on blu, someone complainted that the dancers steps were "out of sync". I didn't notice it on my copy so I expect the Pompeii club dance number will play out just fine for most people.

  155. Just viewed Kino's "Sweet Charity" and for those who remain on the fence;
    due to the Entr'acte and Exit Music debacle; I say don't be, despite those disappointments.
    The 4K work that was performed on the film, itself, is exactly as Robert Harris had described;
    which, needless to say, is never less than what he puts forth in all of his reviews.
    What a pleasure to see and have another maximized and spruced up work by DP Robert Surtees.
    As for the sound? Well, once again, RAH said it best. "Sonic".
    This, alone, brings to the "Sweet Charity" experience its own isolated pleasures of renewal;
    especially since we're talking about a soundtrack that holds the orchestration by the great Ralph Burns.:thumbs-up-smiley:

  156. Okay, finally we can hear about the French vs. the Kino. The French loses – while it looks very good, it is clearly not a new transfer – there's gate weave in the opening credits, and the grain is clunky, especially on the opticals, of which there are many. You don't notice this UNTIL you compare it to the Kino – which is clearly a new 4K transfer (NOT restoration) – grain looks like it should (LIGHT), sharper image, and everything looking a movie.

    Sound is another story. It's fine when you boost it about 10db – I have my volume set the same for every movie – occasionally I have to adjust up or down a db or 2, but this one's mastered hugely low – baffling really. Once you turn the sound up, it's fine and pretty much similar to the French, which doesn't need to be turned up.

    Another maddening thing, a packaging thing I will NEVER EVER understand… You open the case – there's a booklet on the left and a blu-ray on the right. Naturally, the assumption would be that that's the roadshow and what you want to watch. It's not – it's the "alternate" version sans overture – yes, it's stated on the disc but no one is going to look at the disc. In fact, you don't even notice that there's a disc under the booklet until you actually remove the booklet. Kino is not the only guilty party here – but it's just dumb, IMO – minor, yes, but irritating, yes.

    Nitpicks aside, I can't imagine anyone not being happy with the quality of this – and yes, it is a major screw-up not to have the Intermission and exit music – words have meanings and ROADSHOW means the ENTIRE ROADSHOW experience start to finish. I surmise Kino doesn't know the film or what the Roadshow was and so just took what Universal gave them and didn't know enough to ask for those musical items.

  157. What exactly do you mean by alternate version sans overture? do you mean that it's the entire roadshow (according to Kino) movie in stereo in a 4k transfer without the overture but with the alternate ending?

  158. roxy1927

    What exactly do you mean by alternate version sans overture? do you mean that it's the entire roadshow (according to Kino) movie in stereo in a 4k transfer without the overture but with the alternate ending?

    It’s the movie without overture, intermission and exit music. It’s the general release that 80% of the theatres in the US played.

  159. roxy1927

    What exactly do you mean by alternate version sans overture? do you mean that it's the entire roadshow (according to Kino) movie in stereo in a 4k transfer without the overture but with the alternate ending?

    Yes, the version with the alternate ending does not include the Overture.

  160. ahollis

    It’s the movie without overture, intermission and exit music. It’s the general release that 80% of the theatres in the US played.

    If I'm not misreading it, Allen, isn't the version on the second blu-ray the one with the alternate ending?

  161. haineshisway

    […]Nitpicks aside, I can't imagine anyone not being happy with the quality of this – and yes, it is a major screw-up not to have the Intermission and exit music – words have meanings and ROADSHOW means the ENTIRE ROADSHOW experience start to finish. I surmise Kino doesn't know the film or what the Roadshow was and so just took what Universal gave them and didn't know enough to ask for those musical items.

    I blame Universal for this; and praise Kino for delivering us out of the dark ages from the older DVD.
    And here is how I have deducted such blames towards Universal and Universal, alone.
    Act One ends in the elevator.
    Cleverly, this portion of the film concludes with the words "To Be Continued…";
    which in and of itself, indicates to the then seasoned Roadshow audiences that they are at the Intermission.
    In the BD, after we see "To Be Continued…" the image fades into a newly produced "Intermission" card.
    which did not exist in the DVD. Therefore, a conscience decision was made by someone at Universal to highlight this as a stopping point.
    Universal probably has no plans to rectify this;
    but, hopefully, it has been noted that we are not asleep at the wheel as they themselves may be.
    Let this serve as their lesson whenever they decide to deliver "Thoroughly Modern Millie";
    as Andre Previn's Oscar winning scoring should not suffer that same indignities as had Ralph Burns.

  162. okay so I'm assuming that this general release version does not include those cuts that I remember from when I first saw it in the 70s. I knew I was seeing a cut version because I had listened to the lp which I bought as a cutout and as I was watching the film I was stunned that it was missing chunks of the musical numbers.

  163. Will Krupp

    If I'm not misreading it, Allen, isn't the version on the second blu-ray the one with the alternate ending?

    You might be right. I was under the assumption that the second one was a general release version.

  164. haineshisway

    […]Nitpicks aside, I can't imagine anyone not being happy with the quality of this – and yes, it is a major screw-up not to have the Intermission and exit music – words have meanings and ROADSHOW means the ENTIRE ROADSHOW experience start to finish. I surmise Kino doesn't know the film or what the Roadshow was and so just took what Universal gave them and didn't know enough to ask for those musical items.

    Doing a re-write, as I had made an error in an earlier post.
    Okay, so this is how I see it. Universal is to blame for the omissions of the Entr'acte and Exit Music.
    Kino Lorber, to my estimation, is exempt. And here's why:

    In the theatrical showing of "Sweet Charity" we see the filmmakers substitution for the word "Intermission" with a title card that reads as "To Be Continued…" For the then seasoned Roadshow audiences of 1969 this was a clever and clear way of stating that they had reached the break; as the closing curtains and up-dimming auditorium lights had most assuredly served only further to reinforce this point.

    In the DVD edition, after we see the titles of "To Be Continued…" then visuals fade in with yet a second title card that has the word "Intermission", along with a still photo of MacLaine, while playing the Entr'acte in its entirety.
    Now, the Kino BD still shows this "Intermission" title card, but with no Entr'acte to be heard. The fact that this "Intermission" card remained in the Kino BD without the Entr'acte music leads me to believe that its omission was deliberate. Universal, to my estimation, made the conscience decision to cut the music; otherwise, we would not had even seen this redundant "Intermission" card at all. The DVD, itself, would had best been served by using an "Entr'acte" title card with its existing music, rather that an "Intermission" card. Nonetheless, the "Intermission" card remains on the BD and serves little purpose; as, once again, the "To Be Continued…" card already states that we have reached the end of Act One.

    With that said, I strongly encourage all "Sweet Charity" fans to pick up Kino's BD of this excellent update to the former DVD; while still holding onto the older edition, for sake of maintaining the Entr'acte and Exit Music within your collection of films. Do not deprive yourself from an otherwise fantastically audible and visual treat of this newer and reinvigorated edition at hand.

  165. ahollis

    You might be right. I was under the assumption that the second one was a general release version.

    He is absolutely right. I guess for some reason I got this set from A.ca early. It definitely has the alternate ending on disc 2.

  166. ahollis

    You might be right. I was under the assumption that the second one was a general release version.

    He is absolutely right. I guess for some reason I got this set from A.ca early. It definitely has the alternate ending on disc 2.

  167. ahollis

    You might be right. I was under the assumption that the second one was a general release version.

    He is absolutely right. I guess for some reason I got this set from A.ca early. It definitely has the alternate ending on disc 2.

  168. Disc two is the same save for the overture being gone and the happy ending being used. There seems to be confusion here because someone said "general release version" – I believe the ORIGINAL general release version was the road show with the overture, entr'acte and play out music removed and with no to be continued. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I remember being told. The 121-minute version (or thereabouts) was, I believe, first done for airline prints, one of which I had in 16mm. I really have no idea if that version was shown in theaters or not.

  169. roxy1927

    If only there had been a few major critics in '69 who lauded the film like this as it deserved. It was sadly at the time a very fashionable film to trash.

    Alas, 1969 was a year of transition in Hollywood. It was the year of Easy Rider, Midnight Cowboy and They Shoot Horses Don't They?. Big musical roadshows like Sweet Charity, Hello Dolly, Goodbye Mr. Chips and Paint Your Wagon (all 1969 releases) were considered old fashioned and dismissed as such by the majority of critics. Curiously, I suspect posterity will be kinder to Hello Dolly and Sweet Charity (in fact, it already has) because in 2019, films like Easy Rider and Midnight Cowboy play out today as "of their time" period pieces, time capsules of the era which are interesting as archival documents of America but not much else while Charity and Dolly seem like timeless entertainments. I tried showing Easy Rider to my nephew ….. and he was bored stiff. "Hippies" were my generation and they just seemed like losers to him! 😆

  170. haineshisway

    Disc two is the same save for the overture being gone and the happy ending being used. There seems to be confusion here because someone said "general release version" – I believe the ORIGINAL general release version was the road show with the overture, entr'acte and play out music removed and with no to be continued. I may be wrong about this, but that's what I remember being told. The 121-minute version (or thereabouts) was, I believe, first done for airline prints, one of which I had in 16mm. I really have no idea if that version was shown in theaters or not.

    The 121 minute version was shown theatrically. I saw the movie as a roadshow in Toronto. It didn't do very well so they moved it to a smaller theatre and at that time the intermission, etc. got cut. (My brother went to see it on my recommendation.) The film was then re-released a few months later. I went to see it again and big chunks of it were chopped out – the 121 minute version. I was gobsmacked!

  171. Did it ever play on primetime network television in the 70s? I don't recall…I also don't recall ever really seeing it in syndication in the Big Cable 80s when everything was showing on television. I don't recall seeing it all until AMC started playing it.

  172. I once asked Frank Rowley one of New York's best programers and manager of the very popular Regency why he never showed SC and he said there wasn't enough of an audience for it. I was stunned. If there was ever an audience for it is was at this beloved revival house. And he showed the complete Star!!

  173. The New York times original review says the film's length is 157 minutes. I assumed they were including the entr'acte and the exit music. It also lists a date as April 2nd 1969. That means the New York premier was April 1st. However the world premiere was in Boston so that means it opened in March. also bluray.com labeled this a 4K restoration though on this site it said it was a 4K transfer. Not having any technical knowledge of these things I'm not really sure what the difference is. Also it lists the length of the film at a hundred and thirty minutes. A bit of confusion there.

  174. I was barely into the commentary before calling bs. Elinger claims that this being Fosse’s first job as director he was trying to learn everything on the fly and didn’t even know what a ‘shot’ was. Fosse had performed in films for years. He choreographed the dances for the films Damn Yankees, Pajama Game, and My Sister Eileen. All that work and he never encountered the concept of a ‘shot’? Please.

  175. roxy1927

    The New York times original review says the film's length is 157 minutes. I assumed they were including the entr'acte and the exit music. It also lists a date as April 2nd 1969. That means the New York premier was April 1st. However the world premiere was in Boston so that means it opened in March. also bluray.com labeled this a 4K restoration though on this site it said it was a 4K transfer. Not having any technical knowledge of these things I'm not really sure what the difference is. Also it lists the length of the film at a hundred and thirty minutes. A bit of confusion there.

    Everything is called a 4K "restoration" these days, so that the word has become meaningless. This didn't need a "restoration" – it had a 4K transfer, period. And even a 4K transfer is ultimately meaningless unless you know what the SOURCE for the transfer is. You can do a 4K transfer of 8mm film – won't make it look good, but you can do it. It's all gotten quite silly, IMO.

  176. Ethan Riley

    Did it ever play on primetime network television in the 70s? I don't recall…I also don't recall ever really seeing it in syndication in the Big Cable 80s when everything was showing on television. I don't recall seeing it all until AMC started playing it.

    It did play on local TV in L.A. late 70s/early 80s. I first saw it on a late night showing on one of the local channels. My parents had the soundtrack LP, so I already was familiar with the music. Even pan/'scan with commercials I loved it. I also recall it seemed like the film was kind of beat up, I recall scratches and jumps etc.

  177. Following up on the comment about the premiere of "Sweet Charity." The world premiere was in Boston on February 11, 1969 at the Sack Music Hall and Saxon theaters and the reserved seat engagement at the Saxon (now the Emerson Majestic) began the following day. The NY premiere at the Rivoli was on April 1 as noted above. Boston was an odd choice for the world premiere of such an NYC-centric film; the clout of exhibitor Ben Sack probably had something to do with it (several of Hitchcock's Universal films, including "Torn Curtain" and "Frenzy," also had their world premieres at a Sack theater in Boston).

  178. I remember one of the networks (maybe ABC) had late night coverage of the Hollywood premiere. All I remember from it was the theater that was showing it (Grauman's?) had piped Shirley MacLaine's "I'm a Brass Band" onto the pavement while the emcee interviewed celebrities going in to see it.

  179. My father owned a small-town movie theater in the Midwest, and when "Sweet Charity" played there, I was a teenager who looked through the press book and found you could order a free promotional album of one-sided interviews. These were recordings of cast interviews with scripts, so that local radio announcers could read the questions and Shirley MacLaine (or whoever) would answer on the album. Wish I had kept that album now!

  180. Matt Hough

    I remember one of the networks (maybe ABC) had late night coverage of the Hollywood premiere. All I remember from it was the theater that was showing it (Grauman's?) had piped Shirley MacLaine's "I'm a Brass Band" onto the pavement while the emcee interviewed celebrities going in to see it.

    Not the Chinese – the Pantages.

  181. I have an off-air recording of it from WUHF in Rochester in 1982, they let the first part go a LONG time (30 minutes or more) with no commercials. Need to transfer it to DVD and see if there’s any noteworthy cuts or differences; commercials were left in and the station signs off afterwards.

  182. The good news is it looks and sounds beautiful! It looks like 70mm. The colors and detail are incredible perfection. You can see every freckle on Shirley MacLaine. I enjoy the vintage documentaries and value their inclusion. It’s strange that on the roadshow version, they have the same title card and black section that is on the bootleg version on YouTube and the previous versions — minus the music! It’s like they just decided to leave it off. Very disappointing. Also, I don’t understand why Kino has decided to use commentators lately who only want to discuss the psychological and social meanings of the story and give you very little background on the actual production or the actors. I don’t think she even mentioned Stubby Kaye’s name.

  183. warnerbro

    […] I don't think she even mentioned Stubby Kaye's name.

    A bonafide commentary, as spoken by a true theater and film historian, would have made mention of Stubby Kaye; especially in light of his singing a major number. Thankfully, though, we do have an essay by Ms. Kirgo.:thumbs-up-smiley:

  184. Ken Koc

    It might have been in this thread but it The Rich Man's Frug out of sync?

    Someone said something about it, but several of us don't find it out of synch at all, which leads me to believe it's a player issue.

  185. I saw two or three sections of dance numbers that I thought had questionable sync also (dancers against the music), but then after two or three cuts it seemed back in again – so I think that's probably how it always was.

  186. I listened to this over headphones, and the 2.0 on the roadshow disc is mono (!) but the 2.0. on the alternate disc is stereo. It looks fantastic, though. In the 5.1 track, I feel that I am hearing more of the low brass and woodwinds than in previous editions.

  187. I'm the one that mentioned it had its world premiere in Boston assuming that it was in March as the NY premiere was on April 1st.
    That's a pretty long surprising gap between its world premiere and NY premiere. And then when did it open in LA? Wouldn't the box office reception in Boston have affected the mood at the Rivoli on opening night?
    Since when did NY have to wait so long for a premiere? The biggest films had their world premieres in the city.
    Somebody on bluray.com had the best solution to the presentation of this film. Clearly some of these people who release this stuff should talk to the fans who know the films better than they do.
    He said the first half should have been on disc one. Then the two versions of the second half on disc two. This way you would have had the entire roadshow film and just choose which second half you wanted to see. Why couldn't the people at Kino have thought of this?
    At least they should pull it and put out the entire roadshow version.
    Why has Kino remained mum? Are they too embarrassed to say anything but 'whoops!'?
    And I'd like to give a shout out to somebody who is never mentioned but did quite a spectacular job on the film, the musical supervisor and conductor Joseph Gershenson. His work is electrifying. And the guy started out conducting orchestra accompanying silent films in 1920! That's an impressive career.

  188. haineshisway

    Okay, finally we can hear about the French vs. the Kino. The French loses – while it looks very good, it is clearly not a new transfer – there's gate weave in the opening credits, and the grain is clunky, especially on the opticals, of which there are many. You don't notice this UNTIL you compare it to the Kino – which is clearly a new 4K transfer (NOT restoration) – grain looks like it should (LIGHT), sharper image, and everything looking a movie.

    Sound is another story. It's fine when you boost it about 10db – I have my volume set the same for every movie – occasionally I have to adjust up or down a db or 2, but this one's mastered hugely low – baffling really. Once you turn the sound up, it's fine and pretty much similar to the French, which doesn't need to be turned up.

    Another maddening thing, a packaging thing I will NEVER EVER understand… You open the case – there's a booklet on the left and a blu-ray on the right. Naturally, the assumption would be that that's the roadshow and what you want to watch. It's not – it's the "alternate" version sans overture – yes, it's stated on the disc but no one is going to look at the disc. In fact, you don't even notice that there's a disc under the booklet until you actually remove the booklet. Kino is not the only guilty party here – but it's just dumb, IMO – minor, yes, but irritating, yes.

    Nitpicks aside, I can't imagine anyone not being happy with the quality of this – and yes, it is a major screw-up not to have the Intermission and exit music – words have meanings and ROADSHOW means the ENTIRE ROADSHOW experience start to finish. I surmise Kino doesn't know the film or what the Roadshow was and so just took what Universal gave them and didn't know enough to ask for those musical items.

    I had the exact same problem adjusting the sound between the dialogue and musical numbers. Should we ask for remaster of the audio track?

  189. An update…

    I ended up buying the Kino Lorber SWEET CHARITY even though I though the French release (and my hybrid putting back the entr'acte and exit music) would suffice. Some observations:

    * The scene missing from the DVD is back in the "roadshow" version, but it is NOT in the alternate version. I'm assuming a reel from the shorter cut was used when making the DVD and that would explain its absence. The scene is presented here:

    * The sound synchronization on the last two sections of Rich Man's Frug look perfect on Kino's release whereas those same sections are off a bit on the French Blu-ray.

    * The new commentary track is only on the shorter alternate cut of the film. The commentator makes no more of the extended dialogue scene missing on that cut.

    * The trailer and bonus vintage featurettes are the same standard definition, dot crawl filled transfers as were on the DVD.

    * The intermission card created for video stays on the screen for nearly 30 seconds with no audio. As the entr'acte is missing, the audio suddenly fades in as the second half of the film begins.

    * The gate weave that has always been in the opening credits has been stabilized.

    * Opticals still stick out but the difference between them and the surrounding footage is less pronounced when compared to prior releases.

    * The contrast for the feature is a bit lighter, revealing a bit more to see in the darker areas of the frame and black costumes.

    * The feature has a less gritty look now, which is pleasing and subtle. The grain is now quite slight and the lower contrast reveals a bit more details in the costumes. Solid colors (like the hot red background during The Rich Man's Frug sequence) no longer have the noticeable swimming grain breaking up the hue as before.

  190. Ken Koc

    It might have been in this thread but it The Rich Man's Frug out of sync?

    That was me.

    This sequence is in sync on the Kino Lorber Blu-ray release. The last two sections of The Rich Man's Frug are NOT in sync on the French Blu-ray of several years ago. The dancers don't punch on the beat on that release but they do on this new one (and the old DVD).

  191. Chuck Pennington

    An update…

    I ended up buying the Kino Lorber SWEET CHARITY even though I though the French release (and my hybrid putting back the entr'acte and exit music) would suffice. Some observations:

    * The scene missing from the DVD is back in the "roadshow" version, but it is NOT in the alternate version. I'm assuming a reel from the shorter cut was used when making the DVD and that would explain its absence. The scene is presented here:

    * The sound synchronization on the last two sections of Rich Man's Frug look perfect on Kino's release whereas those same sections are off a bit on the French Blu-ray.

    * The new commentary track is only on the shorter alternate cut of the film. The commentator makes no more of the extended dialogue scene missing on that cut.

    * The trailer and bonus vintage featurettes are the same standard definition, dot crawl filled transfers as were on the DVD.

    * The intermission card created for video stays on the screen for nearly 30 seconds with no audio. As the entr'acte is missing, the audio suddenly fades in as the second half of the film begins.

    * The gate weave that has always been in the opening credits has been stabilized.

    * Opticals still stick out but the difference between them and the surrounding footage is less pronounced when compared to prior releases.

    * The contrast for the feature is a bit lighter, revealing a bit more to see in the darker areas of the frame and black costumes.

    * The feature has a less gritty look now, which is pleasing and subtle. The grain is now quite slight and the lower contrast reveals a bit more details in the costumes. Solid colors (like the hot red background during The Rich Man's Frug sequence) no longer have the noticeable swimming grain breaking up the hue as before.

    That explains a lot about the cut dialogue on the dvd. Very interesting.

    Any thoughts on the sound quality/levels on the Kino vs. the French, Chuck?

  192. Chuck Pennington

    An update…

    I ended up buying the Kino Lorber SWEET CHARITY even though I though the French release (and my hybrid putting back the entr'acte and exit music) would suffice. Some observations:

    * The scene missing from the DVD is back in the "roadshow" version, but it is NOT in the alternate version. I'm assuming a reel from the shorter cut was used when making the DVD and that would explain its absence. The scene is presented here:

    * The sound synchronization on the last two sections of Rich Man's Frug look perfect on Kino's release whereas those same sections are off a bit on the French Blu-ray.

    * The new commentary track is only on the shorter alternate cut of the film. The commentator makes no more of the extended dialogue scene missing on that cut.

    * The trailer and bonus vintage featurettes are the same standard definition, dot crawl filled transfers as were on the DVD.

    * The intermission card created for video stays on the screen for nearly 30 seconds with no audio. As the entr'acte is missing, the audio suddenly fades in as the second half of the film begins.

    * The gate weave that has always been in the opening credits has been stabilized.

    * Opticals still stick out but the difference between them and the surrounding footage is less pronounced when compared to prior releases.

    * The contrast for the feature is a bit lighter, revealing a bit more to see in the darker areas of the frame and black costumes.

    * The feature has a less gritty look now, which is pleasing and subtle. The grain is now quite slight and the lower contrast reveals a bit more details in the costumes. Solid colors (like the hot red background during The Rich Man's Frug sequence) no longer have the noticeable swimming grain breaking up the hue as before.

    I find it astonishing that you don't mention the lower than low sound – it's so obviously botched. Yes, you can turn it up about 10db and it will match the French Blu or any other movie, but something clearly went wrong and no QC was done at all.

  193. haineshisway

    I find it astonishing that you don't mention the lower than low sound – it's so obviously botched. Yes, you can turn it up about 10db and it will match the French Blu or any other movie, but something clearly went wrong and no QC was done at all.

    I watched this on our “everyday” TV which only has a sound bar, and noticed no deficiency in the sound what so ever. Now, lately we have been going to bed too late. I start a movie, and my wife, who is only 1/2 watching anyway, falls asleep. Then I put the sound way down and turn on the subtitles. Perhaps that was also the case this time, so I didn’t notice. 🙂

  194. This could have been a stellar release, yet due to so many sloppy production errors it ranks as only OK. The missing music is a bone headed screw up, the commentary is on the wrong disc and sounds like it was thrown together after watching the featurette on Fosse and a Google search, the sound is adequate but frustrating, and I feel if they were going to produce a second disc they may as well have given us the shredded version that eventually hit neighborhood movie houses, as that would be interesting to see. I find it hard to believe that this particular trailer was what was seen prior to release. It feels like a last ditch effort to drum up some business. Honestly, as much as I like the film, the trailer we have been seeing for 30 years on home video does the film no favors and almost calls out the film as a "turkey." Overall, a missed opportunity for no reason other than carelessness.

  195. TJPC

    I watched this on our “everyday” TV which only has a sound bar, and noticed no deficiency in the sound what so ever. Now, lately we have been going to bed too late. I start a movie, and my wife, who is only 1/2 watching anyway, falls asleep. Then I put the sound way down and turn on the subtitles. Perhaps that was also the case this time, so I didn’t notice. 🙂

    Ya think? Because if you put on any other movie and set a comfortable sound level and then put on this disc if you don't notice it then new ears are in order – it's BLATANT – it's not just a db or two lower – it's TEN db lower.

  196. haineshisway

    Ya think? Because if you put on any other movie and set a comfortable sound level and then put on this disc if you don't notice it then new ears are in order – it's BLATANT – it's not just a db or two lower – it's TEN db lower.

    Truth. I have a very sophisticated sound system–I had to put the poor thing on blast for this movie.

  197. I’ve gotten to the point with the way that tracks are being mastered, along with some corporate logos, ie the occasional Lionsgate (that comes on way above normal levels) that I no longer look at levels as a norm. On my system, I’m generally running anywhere from 58-73.

    I’ll have to recheck SC, and see where it falls.

  198. Robert Harris

    I’ve gotten to the point with the way that tracks are being mastered, along with some corporate logos, ie the occasional Lionsgate (that comes on way above normal levels) that I no longer look at levels as a norm.

    I have the mute button on my Denon receiver set to -20db below normal listening level and have learned to always engage it when starting a disc, just to avoid blasting logos and menu music.

  199. Robert Harris

    I’ve gotten to the point with the way that tracks are being mastered, along with some corporate logos, ie the occasional Lionsgate (that comes on way above normal levels) that I no longer look at levels as a norm. On my system, I’m generally running anywhere from 58-73.

    I’ll have to recheck SC, and see where it falls.

    Mr. Harris, what is your opinion of the quality of the sound as originally recorded?

  200. haineshisway

    There's nothing really wrong with the sound on the Kino other than some person decided to make it ten db lower than most Blu-rays. No reason to do so and perhaps an error, but it's really annoying.

    I didn't need to adjust my volume when sampling this Blu-ray. It's at the same volume level as when I played "Reap the Wild Wind" this afternoon.

  201. Robert Crawford

    I didn't need to adjust my volume when sampling this Blu-ray. It's at the same volume level as when I played "Reap the Wild Wind" this afternoon.

    Well, I'm not at your house so I don't know your set-up. I'm not the only one who's said this, you know. There are several people who've pointed it out and we're certainly not making it up. I have a standard volume level and most Blu-rays and DVDs are perfect at that level. So, it's really easy to tell when one is mastered way too hot or way too low.

  202. haineshisway

    Well, I'm not at your house so I don't know your set-up. I'm not the only one who's said this, you know. There are several people who've pointed it out and we're certainly not making it up. I have a standard volume level and most Blu-rays and DVDs are perfect at that level. So, it's really easy to tell when one is mastered way too hot or way too low.

    I'm not at your house either without any knowledge of your setup. My set-up is 5.1.2 setup with SVS Prime tower and Prime center speakers as my main three speakers along with Polk surround speakers and subwoofer along with Klipsch Dolby Atmos speakers and a Marantz 6013 receiver. Also, I'm not the only one saying I didn't have to adjust my volume from my normal Blu-ray viewing. That is all I'm saying as I don't have any bone in this argument nor any reason to doubt what others are experiencing in their home theaters.

  203. haineshisway

    I find it astonishing that you don't mention the lower than low sound – it's so obviously botched. Yes, you can turn it up about 10db and it will match the French Blu or any other movie, but something clearly went wrong and no QC was done at all.

    I didn't keep the French Blu to compare. I created a Blu-Ray that normalized the sound so that the loudest point was as loud as it could be without distortion, and the rest of the track was amplified accordingly.

    Now to re-do that work and add back the entr'acte and exit music with the Kino video master…

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