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Blu-ray Reviews

The Muppet Christmas Carol: 20th Anniversary Blu-ray Review



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#21 of 68 Tom M

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Posted November 10 2012 - 06:19 PM

Yeah, glad you are so over joyed with Disney's subpar release.  For me, it's a no-sale until the complete movie is back in place again.

Why dump all over me because I enjoyed the damn movie as it was originally released? If you don't want to buy the movie that's fine but to disrespect those of us who enjoy the movie as is reflects very poorly on you. Lighten up and consider the feelings of others. Ironic that you are ignoring the very message this movie (and Dickens book) promotes: kindness to others.
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#22 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 10 2012 - 07:47 PM

I'm not saying the edit wasn't obvious as it clearly was. The song was cut at the last minute so the edit was a rush job. Disney is doing now what they didn't have time for back then: making the edit less noticable. What I meant was the scene with the song plays like this: Scrooge: I love you, Belle Belle: You did once. *song* Belle leaves See, the scene is constructed so the song can be removed with minimal disruption. It's the way the scene is scored that creates the problem with taking it out. BUT, just so my position is clear: I think BOTH cuts of the film should have been made available. There is really no excuse not to do this.

Minimal disruption does not solve the problem here. It's kind of shortsighted to suggest that the scene was deliberately constructed to allow the song to be removed, because it leaves a hole in the story. I think the point you are missing is that this scene is crucial to the plot, as it begins Scrooge's transition by showing his pain and regret at witnessing his bad choice. In this movie, the scene is actually constructed with all the necessary exposition written into the song and Caine's reaction to it. Without the song, all of that is gone. Therefore you don't learn why she left or how he feels about it and the scene is basically pointless.

I enjoyed every second and didn't miss "When Love Is Gone" one bit. I suspect that Disney now feels that this is the "official" version of the film. *shrugs* Fine by me though I do hope to see the extended version in HD eventually.

You say you believe both versions should be available, yet you show a good deal of delight in the happy-happy-joy-joy kiddie friendly cut version, ignoring that the film is missing its emotional center because of it. Considering the situation, (in case you haven't noticed this song has been a big passionate issue with numerous people all over the world for several years) it's obviously not just one person who feels this way, so you should expect to be disagreed with every time you make excuses to defend the cut version. You can choose to characterize that as people dumping on your opinion, but the way you're expressing it can come off like you're dumping on theirs.

#23 of 68 BJQ1972

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Posted November 10 2012 - 11:09 PM

Why dump all over me because I enjoyed the damn movie as it was originally released? If you don't want to buy the movie that's fine but to disrespect those of us who enjoy the movie as is reflects very poorly on you. Lighten up and consider the feelings of others. Ironic that you are ignoring the very message this movie (and Dickens book) promotes: kindness to others.

I agree. Unfortunately you will find you are not allowed an opinion on this matter.

#24 of 68 jim_falconer

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Posted November 11 2012 - 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Tom M 


Why dump all over me because I enjoyed the damn movie as it was originally released?
If you don't want to buy the movie that's fine but to disrespect those of us who enjoy the movie as is reflects very poorly on you.
Lighten up and consider the feelings of others.
Ironic that you are ignoring the very message this movie (and Dickens book) promotes: kindness to others.

Because the cut scene is integral to the story being told.  Not just this version, but in Dicken's original novel.  Scrooge has to go back and see what a mistake he made in his younger years.  You coming along and saying how wonderful a job Disney did is a dis-service to everyone here who wants the film whole again.



#25 of 68 TravisR

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Posted November 11 2012 - 02:04 AM

Unfortunately you will find you are not allowed an opinion on this matter.

Clearly. This is another case where if you're not getting your torch and pitchfork, it's better or at least easier to just be quiet because you will become the focus point of the anger. I wholeheartedly agree that the entire movie should be presented but if someone else is OK with the disc and the missing song, that's their business.

#26 of 68 Tom M

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Posted November 11 2012 - 02:47 AM

People can disagree with me but please do so without the sarcasm. There is really no need for that. A simple "Glad you enjoyed it, wish I could" would work. Disney knows by now that the song is wanted. Perhaps next year will see a new SE with both cuts available. Or a backhanded effort with the song in a deleted scene section. But I wouldn't expect anything this year.
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#27 of 68 Tom M

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Posted November 11 2012 - 02:53 AM

Clearly. This is another case where if you're not getting your torch and pitchfork, it's better or at least easier to just be quiet because you will become the focus point of the anger. I wholeheartedly agree that the entire movie should be presented but if someone else is OK with the disc and the missing song, that's their business.

Agreed.
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#28 of 68 Mike_Richardson

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Posted November 11 2012 - 06:43 AM

I suspect that Disney now feels that this is the "official" version of the film. *shrugs* Fine by me

So you're fine going along with whatever studio executives want and don't care about the director's intentions? I remember when sites like this always advocated for the filmmaker. Guess those days are over...

#29 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 11 2012 - 06:46 AM

So you're fine going along with whatever studio executives want and don't care about the director's intentions? I remember when sites like this always advocated for the filmmaker. Guess those days are over...

Clearly. No respect for the filmmaker nor the story.

#30 of 68 Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 11 2012 - 09:32 AM

Do I need to start removing particular members from this thread?


I'm personally disgusted over the way the conversation has turned

in this thread and the type of sarcastic and borderline ugly remarks

that have been thrown at someone who who's opinion has gone 

against the grain.


Does this warrant members ganging up on an individual that has

an opposing opinion?


Does this mean that the one individual who enjoys the movie as

it is being released has no respect for the filmmaker or their vision?


I didn't expect the level of dialogue here to degrade to the point where

people are afraid to come in here and express an opinion that may

not be popular with others.


HTF was built upon the promise of respectful dialogue between 

members of different opinion.  Once again, I find myself having to step

into a thread where the level of discussion has regressed into something

that should not belong in a forum like this.


Some members, who I have previously approached about this kind of

behavior are back in the driver's seat heading the attack.


It will cease immediately.


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#31 of 68 Jason_V

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Posted November 11 2012 - 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mike_Richardson 


So you're fine going along with whatever studio executives want and don't care about the director's intentions? I remember when sites like this always advocated for the filmmaker. Guess those days are over...


I think that's a gross generalization, to be honest.  There are plenty of people here who agonize over every little change in Star Wars or Indiana Jones.  Check either of those threads.


I'm sure someone has a direct or indirect line to Brian Henson to ask the question.  Instead of going all pitchforks and gloom and doom, let's do some research.  There may be a legit reason for the omission.  (Then again, there may not be one as well.)


#32 of 68 BJQ1972

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Posted November 11 2012 - 09:56 AM

Do I need to start removing particular members from this thread? I'm personally disgusted over the way the conversation has turned in this thread and the type of sarcastic and borderline ugly remarks that have been thrown at someone who who's opinion has gone  against the grain.

As another person who enjoys the theatrical version of this movie I would like to thank you for your intervention.

#33 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 11 2012 - 09:09 PM

I think that's a gross generalization, to be honest.  There are plenty of people here who agonize over every little change in Star Wars or Indiana Jones.  Check either of those threads.

One has. The fact is, while the people who LIKE what the director does will defend him, those who don't will not, often to a rabid and insane degree. I recall one member posting that the version he didn't like should be burned, buried, etc. and should NEVER ever again flicker on any screen. I am not invested enough in the Star Wars, (groping for a word someone won't leap on as sarcastic or borderline ugly - is mythology accurate enough?) let's say backstory, to know much about the ramifications of who shot first in the cantina scene, so if I wandered in and said it didn't much matter to me, I'm sure that would cause quite a stir, but if someone explained that it might make a good guy look like a bad guy, okay there's a point. But I am not going to say the scene was originally set up to go either way. People would argue that until the droids come home. Here we have the text of Dickens, which exists, literally, in black and white, making it clear where the story goes in that scene. Henson and Co have been pretty clear about sticking to the book with this movie. Yet I have read people saying things like all the points expressed in the song sequence don't need to be there because they have read the book. If that were the criterion, then why put any details of the story in the movie, much less the emotional center? "sounds crazy, no?" When a discussion runs long enough for some new people to enter who clearly have not read what's been said before, there is the dilemma of do we have to present the same points all over again, or just refer them to what's already there. One can get attacked for going either way (and one has).

I'm sure someone has a direct or indirect line to Brian Henson to ask the question.  Instead of going all pitchforks and gloom and doom, let's do some research.  There may be a legit reason for the omission.  (Then again, there may not be one as well.) 

It's been tried. The response was "we do not own the Muppets." Short of waiting for him outside the gate, that's the best an interested (but not obsessive) individual could do. So in this case, we don't have Henson, but we do have Dickens.

#34 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 11 2012 - 09:20 PM

Because the cut scene is integral to the story being told.  Not just this version, but in Dicken's original novel.  Scrooge has to go back and see what a mistake he made in his younger years.  You coming along and saying how wonderful a job Disney did is a dis-service to everyone here who wants the film whole again.

Agreed. And that is what people who like the other version ignore. We're not saying they should not have their cut, too, but when they try to argue that the song cut was planned for, or better, people are going to disagree. You could remove any one of us from the discussion, and the discussion is still going to happen. It's bigger than any of us. As this has all been stated before, in this and the other thread on this movie, I refer one to the previous posts. Going forward, I wonder how the "Disney Intermission" is being presented here - if it differs in style and presentation from the one on "The Muppets" (the Jason Segal vehicle that came out last year) disc.

#35 of 68 BJQ1972

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Posted November 11 2012 - 11:19 PM

When a discussion runs long enough for some new people to enter who clearly have not read what's been said before, there is the dilemma of do we have to present the same points all over again, or just refer them to what's already there. One can get attacked for going either way (and one has). .

The problem is the assumption that everybody who has an opposing point of view are 'new people who have not read what has been said before' is fundamentally wrong. I still believe that the scene in its theatrical form is enough to clearly show that his relationship breaks down because Belle considers that his love of money is greater than his love for her.

#36 of 68 Colin Jacobson

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Posted November 11 2012 - 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by NY2LA 


Agreed. And that is what people who like the other version ignore. We're not saying they should not have their cut, too, but when they try to argue that the song cut was planned for, or better, people are going to disagree. You could remove any one of us from the discussion, and the discussion is still going to happen. It's bigger than any of us. As this has all been stated before, in this and the other thread on this movie, I refer one to the previous posts.
Going forward, I wonder how the "Disney Intermission" is being presented here - if it differs in style and presentation from the one on "The Muppets" (the Jason Segal vehicle that came out last year) disc.


Like the review mentions, this "Intermission" features Muppets who sing Christmas carols...


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#37 of 68 Todd J Moore

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Posted November 12 2012 - 12:49 AM

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where Tom stated the cut version was his "preferred version". I see that he likes the picture and audio quality of the blu ray (which is something would look for in a blu anyhow) and comments that the song is cut in such a way that if you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't miss it. For stating this, he has been attacked and insulted repeatedly. What the fudge? He even states that he would prefer both versions be included, but he still likes what he sees. I fail to see what is wrong with having such an opinion. Extended versions do not always equal better movies. Sometimes, less is more. I find that to be particularly true of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The only scene in the extended versions of those movies that should have been there in the first place is the death of Sarumon. In terms of Muppet Christmas Carol, Disney may have cut the song for any number of reasons: they didn't like it, it slowed down the movie, they felt the point could be made without the song, whatever. For those who claim the song is the entire movie's emotional center, I submit that you perhaps miss the point of the Tiny Tim character. And for those who want to use Dickens as an argument, I might point out that there's no song in the book. At any rate, it is my understanding that the rules of this forum allow people to have opinions. And they should be allowed those opinions without being disrespected. Disagreement does not justify disrespect. If Tom is cool with the blu ray, good for Tom. He is entitled to being cool with the blu ray. If someone else is not cool with it due to a song (that I don't even remember as being especially good), then as Tom has pointed out that is their right and it is their right to not buy it. Ron, I say bravo to you for your putting your foot down. It's a shame you had to do it, but one thing I have learned throughout the years on the internet is that some film fans make any opinion contrary to theirs personal. Knew a guy one time who felt quite at ease insulting movies others liked (and occassionally insulting people for liking those movies) but who would take it as a personal affront if someone said something against a movie he liked. Such nonsense really is unnecessary and foolish. I would like to think the members of this forum would be above that.

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#38 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 12 2012 - 01:28 AM

The problem is the assumption that everybody who has an opposing point of view are 'new people who have not read what has been said before' is fundamentally wrong.

Nobody has said that everybody who disagrees is new, though it has proven true in many cases when people who haven't posted before bring up points already covered, they likely haven't read them.

#39 of 68 NY2LA

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Posted November 12 2012 - 01:29 AM

Like the review mentions, this "Intermission" features Muppets who sing Christmas carols...

Yeah I got that, I knew what it was, I was hoping for a more detailed description of how it was done... My original question was: "I wonder how the "Disney Intermission" is being presented here - if it differs in style and presentation from the one on "The Muppets" (the Jason Segal vehicle that came out last year) disc. That one reverted to a theatre stage, with an intermission sign going up and down with misspellings, etc, and curtains being opened and closed, sometimes presenting previews of the extra features, and the rest of the time the characters ran back and forth in comic bits. So far all we know about this one is that they sing carols.

#40 of 68 Jason_V

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Posted November 12 2012 - 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by NY2LA 

It's been tried. The response was "we do not own the Muppets." Short of waiting for him outside the gate, that's the best an interested (but not obsessive) individual could do. So in this case, we don't have Henson, but we do have Dickens.


Then, for the time being, a choice needs to be made: either live with the version released or complain about it tactfully, politely and with concrete arguments to back up your position.  I'm not opposed to conversation about what has been omitted or the potential why's or saying you really want the original; I object to the name calling, the insinuations and the meanness.  Disney was very good to us at the meet a few weeks back.  If an exec comes in here, sees the childish behavior and reports back, what is the chance they will continue to be good to us?  And, if even a certain subset of our members are "mean," that gives the entire group a black eye.  These are public forums.


Complain and debate in an adult manner is all I'm saying.  And until Henson does say something one way or the other, we're going to have to assume he signed off on this.  If he didn't, that information WILL come out sooner or later.  It always does.


Originally Posted by NY2LA 

When a discussion runs long enough for some new people to enter who clearly have not read what's been said before, there is the dilemma of do we have to present the same points all over again, or just refer them to what's already there. One can get attacked for going either way (and one has).


Agreed.  There are a lot of multi-multi-page threads here with lots of information and discussion.  No one, though, should be expected to go through all of them before entering a conversation.  We should be in a position of teaching people, having patience and not getting frustrated someone else's education or point of view isn't the same as ours.  Trust me: I'm not the most patient guy in the world and even I get frustrated.  But there's really no point in being mean, sarcastic or snide with anyone.  It is our job to "police" the forum (maybe a bad word?) and make sure all members-newbies, veterans, studio reps, etc.-are treated with fairness and hospitality.

As Dave Ramsey says: have the heart of a teacher.  I would not know half of what I know if it weren't for folks here and in other places sharing their knowledge and education.  We all need to be in that same mindset to grow the next generation of movie fans (and HTF'ers!).







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