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need more power!


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#1 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 20 2006 - 10:54 AM

hi everyone. I need more power! I have an onkyo ht-r510 6.1 home theater in a box set up.total is 600watts? I need to know if there is a 1,000 watt amplifier to make it louder(and if the speakers will handle it) or if I need to use 2 amplifiers linked together or what.I am a novice and I love the sound of the system,but it is just not quite loud enough for me. what do you reccomend? thanks in advance! kyle

#2 of 38 OFFLINE   Leo Kerr

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Posted February 20 2006 - 12:48 PM

The obvious paths to loudness are 1. bigger amplifiers. However, all else being equal, this is a difficult proposition: to get a 3dB rise in SPL, you need to double the amp. If your amp is realyl 100w/channel, you need to go to 200w/channel to get the 3dB rise. What may be easier is to go to external amps - monoblocks and the like. Over all, this isn't the best way to go. 2. Better amps with better power supplies. A good 100w/channel amp can drive a boat load of sound. IF the power supply and amp can actually support the load. The higher you can push your amp without it clipping or distorting, or even self-limiting, the better your needs will be met. This is not a bad avenue to persue in your quest for more volume. 2A. Amps that are capable to drive the speakers in question. Speakers are rated in load - 2, 3, 4, 6, 8 ohms. Many amps prefer working with one load more than the rest. A amp that wants to work with 8ohm only will have a harder time working well with lower resistance loads. Some amps, however, really don't care as much. 3. More sensitive speakers. Speakers have a rated 'sensitivity,' usually expressed as "85dB at 1watt at 1kHz at 1 meter." It really needs all those specs - input power, input signal, range, and, of course SPL. My speakers are generally 86dB/1w/1m/-can't remember if it's white, pink, or tone. I've seen some rated 95dB/1w/1m. Which gives you an ultimate effect of taking your 100w amp and turning it into an effective 600w/channel amp. (*all else being equal.) Some amps can be bridged, but really, without knowing the specific details, if all the components are at least "okay," and your space isn't totally huge, you aught to be able to make it nice and loud. You might have a situation where the output of your source doesn't match what the amp is looking for. For example, my old analog CD player puts out a much stronger signal than the digital sources. Leo Kerr

#3 of 38 OFFLINE   DavidSGT

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Posted February 20 2006 - 12:48 PM

Hiya Kyle, It doesn't quite work that way, I mean extra power for louder sound. FWIW, doubling of amp power will only give 3db extra loudness. What is actually missing here? Not enough bass? Clarity not there? I would suggest better speakers.... Regards DavidSGT

#4 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 20 2006 - 04:50 PM

thanks leo and david for the replies. actually my room is about 18x18 or 20x20.with the system I have,I need to turn it up to at least 50+(max is 60)to really make the place boom.which is ok,but I am looking for more volume with less maxing out the vol. control.all the speakers in the pkg. are 100w,8ohm max rated.(2 fronts,center,3 surrounds)sub is powered and 250w.so it looks like the amp is 100w per channel?and of course the l,r,surrounds and rear channel are not as loud as the fronts and center.the manual reads;230wx2@3ohms,170wx2@4ohms,115wx2@8ohms?how do you know what speaker group gets how many watts? I guess the basic question is,can I add a second amp or pre amp or just buy a 1,000watt amp to boost the max power up to 1,000 watts to make it louder without having to buy a totally new system? thanks guys for all your help! kyle

#5 of 38 OFFLINE   Leo Kerr

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Posted February 20 2006 - 11:17 PM

There's something to consider about amplifiers that you may be.. unaware of. Amplifiers generally only work at one level. The signal into the amplifier is multiplied in voltage and current by, say, a factor of 70. (This isn't really the case, but as an illustration, it works.) No matter what you do, the amp is always going to multiply the signal by, in this case, 70. So what does the volume knob do? It reduces the incoming signal, before it hits the amplifier stage. So as long as you're not hearing distortion, running the amp with the volume set relatively "high" shouldn't be a problem. Leo

#6 of 38 ONLINE   Steve Berger

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Posted February 21 2006 - 01:00 AM

I have a 26x36 cathedral ceiling room and at 35% of a 100 watt/ch Sony amp and 100 watt powered sub and I shake the furniture, let alone every object that isn't screwed down (nails didn't suffice). Since you mention HTIB and "package" I suspect you it be using one of those speaker systems that don't use full range speakers. While I suppose someone may build a true 600 watt HTIB , I have never seen one. Look at the back, if it puts out 600 watts then the power listing will need to say something between 400 and 800 watts consumption; if it says 200 then it can't put out 600. If these are small cube speakers then it will never sound loud in a big room. It takes big speakers to move enough air to be "loud" in a HT theater environment. An HTIB and packaged speakers won't handle it.

#7 of 38 OFFLINE   SethH

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Posted February 21 2006 - 04:36 AM

You might consider replacing your front soundstage with some used Klipsch speakers. These speakers a very efficient and would likely provide you with the volume you crave. Honestly, if you have an HTiB, just replacing your fronts with any good bookshelf or floorstander will likely get you closer to where you'd like to be. Also, it sounds as though you might be familiar with pro audio since you're talking about a 1000w amp. Usually in HT we talk about watts/channel. If an amp or receiver is REALLY putting out 100w/channel, that is enough for most lower or mid-fi speakers. Very few people need amps that produce more than about 250 or 300watts/channel -- and they're usually using monoblocks for that kind of power. I think your temptation here is to buy a pro amp, but doing so will sacrifice some amount -- possibly a lot -- of your sound quality.

#8 of 38 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 21 2006 - 04:42 AM

I agree with Steve - that is a big room for such a small system. The 600w rating is likely an optimistic one, though Onkyo's HTiBs seem to have a good receiver as their strong point - it's the speakers that typically lack (that's how they hit their price point). I'd recommend looking into a new sub and front 3 speakers as starters and see how that does. I'd look for something more sensitive to better utilize what power you do have.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#9 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 21 2006 - 06:22 AM

thanks for all the great replies and info.so let me see if I am getting what you all are saying. it is the speakers and not the reciever( if you have a decent one) that make the biggest difference?the speaker pkg. that came with my onkyo htib are not sensitive or big enough(to push enough air) to produce the room filling sound and volume that I want? so if I get a new higher end speaker pkg,that will make the sound louder because of the better quality,bigness, and sensitivity of the speakers? so say two front towers instead of book shelf,better center,and what about the surrounds(2) and rear(1)? and the million dollar question; what is the cheapest good quality 6.1 speaker set up out there without spending a fortune? thanks for all your help.I also think that this discussion will help htib owners alot to understand about amps vs. speakers vs. total volume of the system. thanks all... kyle

#10 of 38 OFFLINE   SethH

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Posted February 21 2006 - 07:15 AM

I think the question is "what is your budget." I would do as John suggested and start with the three front speakers and maybe a sub -- continue using the speakers from you HTiB for the surrounds, for now. If you're looking ultra cheap, then some Fluance floorstanders might be your best bet. Let us know your budget and perhaps we can make some better recommendations.

#11 of 38 OFFLINE   Henry Wai

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Posted February 21 2006 - 07:18 AM

kyle I own the Onkyo DS787, with that I wanted more power, I ended up getting the Rotel amp RMB-1095, for the price, I would sell your receiver, and get a new Onkyo 901 on ebay for about $800.00 USD I think you'll be very happy with it, you might also want to look into RMB-1075 (125W/channel), there both 5 channel amps. Sounds to me, for what you want to hear, you'll need a better system then what you have down the road.

#12 of 38 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 21 2006 - 08:50 AM

Like Seth asked, do you have a budget Kyle? I've installed the Onkyo 780 package for a customer and I have to say the weak point was the speakers, but for the price they were about what most systems would likely have. Henry???? That would be just a little a bit of a jump in price from the HTiB in question...
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#13 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 21 2006 - 11:12 AM

thanks guys. my budget is <1,000. I know it isn't much but the cheaper the better for now.gotta run for now--more later(the work thing).

#14 of 38 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 21 2006 - 11:43 AM

What's wrong with $1K Posted Image I think you can definitely put together a good system with that budget.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#15 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 21 2006 - 05:44 PM

hey guys.john,was that the onkyo 7.1 set up? does anyone know what the watts per channel my onkyo ht r510 really puts out?75w,85w? I cannot find anything about the true watts per channel.the manual just says 600w total max power.looks like I need to get a better amp(one that has 125wpcx6( any(cheapest) reccomends?) and a 6.1 set of fluance speakers.the reviews look pretty good on this brand.seems to me that the onkyo speakers that come in the htib are just not cutting it and hopefully when I get the fluance speakers,I will notice the difference. I will have to wait on a receiver.whoops!I forgot about the tax man.I always have to pay!there goes my 1,000 budget.looks like new speakers will have to do for now. thanks EVERYONE for helping a novice and ALL your help!Posted Image .... kyle

#16 of 38 OFFLINE   John Titan

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Posted February 22 2006 - 03:19 AM

If your looking for some really loud speakers that sound pretty decent I'd suggest Cerwin vegas most of there speakers have about 94-102 db sensitivity which will be very loud without much amp power. There not overly expensive either. Buy.com has them. If you search you may be able to find them pretty cheap. Klipsch speakers will have better sound though.(cerwins are considered more of a party/Dj type speaker).Here's an example Cerwin vega
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#17 of 38 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 22 2006 - 03:58 AM

kyle, yes the 780 was a 7.1 setup. The receiver that comes with the package is a 502 which puts out 75w I believe. Looking at the manual that I found, it looks like the 510 is also a 50x model. CVs don't necessarily sound the best, but they will give you loud for sure. When you get around to speakers, you might want to give Klipsch a look too, bright but very sensitive and they can often be found cheap on ebay and such.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#18 of 38 OFFLINE   kyleScooter

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Posted February 22 2006 - 06:16 AM

thanks john.I am confused as to why a receiver says 600w or 100w per channel(6.1) and only really delivers 50w? what is the cheapest true 100w or 120w per channel receiver? harmon audio shows a few for about 800 on sale or refurb? is that what I can expect to pay for a decent true 100w per channel receiver? cerwins are definately loud,but what about the fluances? klipsch look pretty expensive.

#19 of 38 OFFLINE   John Garcia

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Posted February 22 2006 - 07:34 AM

I'm not a huge fan of klipsch, but they are very sensitive, normally in the 95-105 area like the Cerwins, and I feel they sound better than the CVs. If you look for used ones, you should be able to find some that aren't too expensive. The Reference line are more expensive in the recent models, but the lower line aren't too far out. Don't get hung up on watts too much, because the only way to really get a feel for how much power a unit really has is to listen to it, preferably with speakers you are familiar with. They say "600w" because it looks good. Most likely they get that by a single channel rated at 100w max, then say it is 600w because there are 6 channels (which I think they are or were allowed to do). What they conveniently don't tell you is that doesn't represent what the unit actually is capable of outputting witha load (speakers) present.
HT: Emotiva UMC-200, Emotiva XPA-3, Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1s + CSC-1, GR Research A/V-1s, Epik Empire, Oppo BDP-105, PS4, PS3,URC R-50, APC-H10, Panamax 5100 Bluejeans Cable
System Two: Marantz PM7200, Pioneer FS52s, Panasonic BD79
(stolen) : Marantz SR-8300, GR Research A/V-2s, Sony SCD-222ES SACD, Panasonic BD-65, PS3 60G (250G)

Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it’ll spend its whole life believing that it is stupid.” – Albert Einstein

 


#20 of 38 OFFLINE   matthew_rm

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Posted February 22 2006 - 01:27 PM

I aslo would second Klipsch. I love my RF3II's. You can get them used these days, for cheep. I think they are rated at "98DB @1Watt." I don't find them bright, but they will not hide poor quality amps, sources, ect. The Refrence series is what got me started on this hobby in the first place! I wouldn't think your playing music in surround, considering the size/quality of your speakers. However, I may not know anything about your reciever, but I am sure a good pair of towers would really Livin things up! Klipsch Refrence line, IMO are MUCH better then Cerwin-vegas. NO contest. Have you listoned to the Paradigm Studio series? Very good sound quality, and loud enough for most people. Polk RTI's are also well priced.




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