need more power! (1 Viewer)

[Oren Paul]

kyle

You have contracted a disease, upgradeitis, which is fatal to most wallets. Take your time, work out the upgrade path you want to take. First, chose your speaker, no other component affects the sound more. If after a lot of study you chose efficient (90db or higher) speakers buy them first. If a less efficient model sounds better you had best look for more power (btw the power ratings on most receivers out there are snake-oil, a subject by itself) before buying speakers. Again, keep the end in mind if you should pick Klipsch (just for the sake of this example) they have a wide range of sizes and price points, you could purchase smaller speakers to use as fronts now knowing later down the road they will be moved to surround duty. The most important speakers for home theater are the center, then the sub, then the fronts.

 

[John Garcia]

I have to somewhat disagree with that - IMO, the most important speakers are the mains AND the center - all three should be given equal weight as if they were one speaker. Then the sub. I listen to more music than movies, so the mains drove my choice in speaker and I got the matching center (which in my case is identical to the mains).

 

[matthew_rm]

I agree with John. Until about 2 months ago, I didnt own a center. I live at home still, so my room isnt very big. I found the RF3's worked well without a center.

And besides, being only 20 years old, making around $4200/month BEFORE taxes, I dont have the money or space for a dedicated 2 ch setup for music. So having good quality pair of towers was most important.

If you HAVE to go cheep on your speakers, cheep out on your rears. If you dont liston to hi-res audio, cheepo rears should be, "good enough."



Thats true! Paying my Snap-on bills and supporting my HTS, + a love of fast cars and tuition for a 4-year apprenticeship, it will be a few years for a big screen lol. At least I dont use drugs~

 

[kyleScooter]

thanks all.I have been looking at all kinds of speakers and it is really hard to pick any.polk,klipsch,boston accoustics,...and on and on.I am having trouble trying to decide if I can wait to piece together great quality speakers one by one.It will take a LONG time at that pace.so I need a 6.1 set at a decent price.(

 

[Sean Mullin]

Kyle,


I am by no means a guru in this field, but from what I know of your situation, it definately sounds like your biggest problem is speakers.

forever I ran (what I consider) a very cheap amp and speaker setup. I had an old '93 built sherwood 85wpc with two Cerwin Vega LS12's plus a pretty large CV center channel with two cheap (150 per pair) sony floor standers for surrounds, this totally would rock my house... (and didn't sound too bad running dolby pro-logic 1. From what I know of Onkyo.. your reciever is not a slouch as far as the price goes. Your speaker situation seems to me to be the weak point.
I would definately recommend upgrading.. if you want house pounding sound.. Cerwin Vega will do the trick..

I am also partial to the sound of my OLD '85 build Klipsch Kg4's they are so sweet to my ears, when playing music. They can be found on Ebay all the time for what I think is a decent price for a beautiful sounding and looking classic speaker.

right now.. you can find on ebay some decent Klipsch HT speaker packages..

http://cgi.ebay.com/KLIPSCH-HOME-THE...cmdZV iewItem

(cut and paste if it isn't clickable)

here is a 5.0 setup that I had auditioned at a local retailer, (this is NOT my auction) I did like it's sound... all you would need to do is add a really nice sub and I think you would be extremely happy with your "new" setup

*** sorry about the link posted.. not sure if that is acceptable, just wanted to give ol kyle a decent example.

 

[kyleScooter]

thanks sean.wow,looks like I missed a great set.I would have only had to add 1 more surround and another sub.I appreciate your advice.it is becoming clear to me that my speakers are the main problem.they really sound pretty good,but I am anxious to hear what some good quality ones will sound like.but I also think my reciever is a problem too.you said your reciever was 85wps?I was told that my onkyo(ht-r510) only delivered about 45-50wpc.(600w into 2ohms(6 channels) which =about 45-50w into 8 ohms? is that how it is calculated?) thanks,and I will keep my eyes open for some of the speakers you mentioned........ thanks!.kyle

 

[Sean Mullin]

Kyle,

that spec I quoted you was 85wpc front two.. and like 45 for surrounds... I dunno about center.. probably the same 45 as wellso it isn't a powerful amp.. but it did seem fairly clean, for no more than it was.

your Onkyo likely has a pretty decent amp section, and as has been mentioned here... is packaged with "cheap" speakers to keep the price reasonably cheap.I would be willing to bet, the watt rating your system has will be quite sufficient with a decent set of "non-HTIB" speakers.

something with some cabinet size and some drivers with some cone and VC size to them as well. A better quality(speaker) cabinet alone would likely yield improvements.

keep your eyes on ebay for auctions simular to the one I posted.. and keep your eyes on it for a decent sub.. I'd say 10" with 200-300w amp... or Athena has a 10" 400w sub you can find around.. amazon, ebay, etc for like 150 bucks along with a set of those klipsch, wont break your bank... and will make that onkyo you already have sing like you have never heard it before. and if you end up thinkin you still don't have enough power.. that rig hasn't set you back all that much, and you still have a pretty good chunk of your 1000 bucks left to upgrade your Reciever.

good luck...

 

[kyleScooter]

thamks sean.you have given me some good advice and your thoughts are exactly what I have been thinking.better speakers with ports and components hopefull make a BIG difference.and a new sub would be great too.I still need some advice about a receiver though.even though my onkyo is ok,I would like some thoughts about some that would be better without spending a fortune and delivering more power.in the future,after I have upgraded my speakers,I would like to have a receiver that will really rock the house and deliver some good power to the speakers and not just 45-50wps per channel.50wps is good,but I would like something better........thanks!.kyle

 

[Chu Gai]

In that room where you've placed your speakers, just where have you placed them with respect to where you're sitting?

 

[GregC]

Kyle,

Start with a new pair of front speakers and run your system with a phantom center channel for now. Buy a separate amp for those speakers. Used Marantz monoblocks run about 125 ea. A cheaper solution would be a two channel amp such as the Audiosource Amp One (about 125 - 150).

This solution would allow the receiver to power just the back channels, allowing for higher volumes (assuming your rear speakers can handle it!

When your budget allows, add a powered sub, a center and surrounds.

Good Luck!

 

[Sean Mullin]

Kyle,

as for a new amp... upgrade your speakers first.. then you will know the real limitaions of what you currently have. then.. go to THIS site (is pricescan.com) .. and go through the recievers and sort them by price.. then you can see what features and power your budget will allow you to get into.. just try the dropdown and keep going through the different manufacturers.. plus I have found this to be a great site for finding the best online deals.

 

[kyleScooter]

chu,all the speakers are suspended from the ceiling and angled toward the couch in a circle.fronts are 15ft away pointed downward, the sub is beside the tv.the center is on top of the 61" tv.and the surrounds are about 15 ft away to the left and right.the back surround is about 10-12 ft behind. I know that that this is probly one of my main problems.I think I need to move the left side surround out some to fill the room more? the back and right side cannot be moved any more out.greg,thanks for the info.I was wondering how to power seperate channels with seperate amps to get more volume.I think your set up and some good speakers might be something that I am after.my room is 18w(front to back)and 27 wide(long).sean,thanks for the site info.I will check it out. thanks guys!........kyle

 

[Chris>JEN]

get sorround sound

 

[Chu Gai]

I've got a couple of thoughts here Kyle.

1)Given the size of the room and the distances you're dealing with, I don't think suspending your speakers from the ceiling is all that good an idea. Even though their HTIB speakers, I think the fronts especially would benefit from being placed closer to the floor. Further, unless there are reasons for those distances, maybe your should rethink them. Dolby's website had some written material and pictures talking about speaker placement. That might be a good place to go.

2)Another thought would be more efficient speakers with an 8 ohm nominal impedance. This presumes that you want to hang onto the rest of what you've got.

3)The sub will excite more room modes, effectively enhancing its output if it's placed in a corner. I've got some articles on that.

4)I've got a feeling you don't have an SPL meter. If not, go get one and you'll do a better job of setting up your system. Cost is somewhere around $30 or so.

 

[kyleScooter]

thanks chu.I didn't think it was a good idea to suspend my speakers,butI didn't want wires everywhere and the grandkids knocking them over wouldn't do either. now that they are older,I was contemplating putting them on stands now and running the wires under the carpet.I think that in itself would be a good start.I was wondering something else also.would it be ok to have towers for the l,r,and back surrounds?I know that traditionally that towers are mainly used for the front.if so,would you use all the same speaker,just get 5 of them,2mains,l,r, and back surrounds?(sub and center would be different)?........thanks...kyle

 

[Chu Gai]

I think it's a good idea now to put your grand-kids on stands. Surround the area with crocodiles too. Teach the little buggers a lesson I say!

You can give the stands approach a shot and experiment with height as this will have effect on the output. Coupling of the bass with the floor and all that. For starters try setting the tweeters at approximately ear-level while sitting and then play with the vertical positioning a bit...say a few inches either way.

If you bring the speakers in a bit or move your seating position closer and just bring the surrounds in so they're to either side of your head but higher up, this might help matters too. Again, check out the Dolby site for detailed specifics. By bringing the speakers in and shortening the distance to the listener, they're effectively going to be louder regardless of the room size. That might tide you over a bit.

You haven't indicated if you've got an SPL meter. Do you?

Now I'm not saying that you won't be happier with new speakers and a receiver and all that other good stuff. You will, but that's going to cost money. Why not use what you've got now and try to get more out of it. That way, when the day comes and you're ready to drop a couple of grand or more, you'll have a much better understanding of how things work. Make sense?

 

[kyleScooter]

thanks chu.no I don't have a spl meter but I intend on getting one.and I will take your much appreciated advice on speaker placement and playing around with things before I drop a grand to upgrade.you didn't answer one of my questions about all towers?too expensive or all channels except front,center,and sub not good for them because of sound characterictics?all in all my onkyo htib is really pretty good for what I paid for it and my room size.you know,...upgradeitis! we all want the biggest and baddest ht.so powerfull that the neighbors will call 911! thanks!......kyle

 

[Chu Gai]

There are a lot of people that run the same speakers (identical) all around. It all depends on tastes, the way your room works, what the wife says, etc.

People catch this upgrading thing to various degrees. But you know, sometimes you see people calling what they're doing upgrading and when you look at it, it looks more like they're running around in circles. They wind up buying one brand of speakers for $1000, selling them at a loss and buying an entirely different brand for $1100 and calling it upgrading. Then the process gets repeated. I don't know, but that sounds like bad investing to me.

Now a $1000 is a goodly amount of money. Maybe it's enough. Maybe it's not. Spend time, and I do mean time...like a year or more, just listening to different speakers and leave the credit cards home. Get a feel for what you like and don't worry about that suddenly you're going to start detesting what you have. The idea is to start to understand your preferences. There's a lot of good brands out there: PSB, JBL, Axiom, Triangle, Infinity, Polk, Paradigm, Klipsh, Rockets, Swans, Phase Tech, and the list goes and spirals up. Some of them you can hear at local stores. Some you'll have to travel to hear. Some are internet only. They ones you're interested and can't get to, try making a post that says, 'Hi, I'm Kyle and I live in whatever. Are there any whatever owners whov'e got a set of something that I can listen to?' If someone makes the offer, be a sport and bring over a nice 6 pack of good beer and enjoy the time.

You'll also find there are many ways to stretch your speaker dollar if it turns out what you want is beyond your reach. For example, some brands sell blems or B-stock for a good discount. Companies introduce new models and clear out the old. Stores open and have one day specials. People sell speakers but I'd only advise you to seriously consider that if its relatively local. Stores, even hi-end ones, have open box or demo sales. If you narrow your selection to 2 brands where it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other you put yourself in a more controlling position. By being patient, having the patience of a Job, you'll stand a much better chance of getting something that'll make you happy for a very long time. Again, while $1000 is a lot, people spend that and more just for a center channel. It's your job to find the gems that work for you. If your money is really kind of tight, then focus more on dropping the money for the front 3 and plan to flesh out the rest down the line. Also, there's always a second part-time job. As an example, my oldest, who really was making extraordinarily good money for a kid out of college had certain goals with getting some audio equipment. But he was ruthlessly budget driven. He actually got a part time job at Sears in their electronics department as an assistant manager where he made a salary plus commisions to get the money he wanted for his display and some other goodies. There are ways if you're determined.

You'll probably find that the sub you've got just won't cut it once you get new speakers. Bigger and better subs will allow you to go lower and with greater volume and not choke under the strain. Them's just the facts. But the good news here is there's no reason to have the sub and speakers be from the same company unless you're obsessive compulsive like Monk. Subs handle maybe from 100 Hz or so down and those frequencies are non-directional so you can use anybody's here: SVS (a wonderful company when it comes to customer service and good help), Hsu, Velodyne, DIY approaches, etc.

For decent but by no means exclusive sites to get you going with speaker placement and other fairly useful information, check out the following:

Set-up Your System
Room Layout and Speaker Setup - Dolby
Sub Placement and Setup - Tom Nousaine
Can You Make Your Sound Better?

So, go look around. Post back and leave your credit cards home.