SVS Subs!!! Are they really that good??? (1 Viewer)

[Eric_Strickl]

But don't belittle their performance

I feel in my opinion I have done nothing of the sort. You just don’t like the fact I am not will to use price as a guideline for buying a sub. In two years the price I am paying for my b15 will be irrelevant, nothing more than a distant memory. The sound quality and beautiful craftsmanship will last for many years to come. I have never come out and said I think svs is crap. I don’t think that at all. It is like the speaker cable argument. If I didn’t hear a difference in better cables I would not buy them. It is the same with the svs subs. If they totally sucked I seriously doubt you all would be fighting me so hard on these issues. My main points are as follows
1) It is hard to be objective when taking a risk. People in this day and age do not like to admit being wrong. Our egos try and defend us by protecting our choices with out us ever being aware that it is happening.
2) There is always a bigger fish. Svs may be good but you svs owners must realize that there are subs out there that sound way better than svs. These subs that sound better, sound better because you hear things and feel things you can’t hear with other subs. So if that is the case than it is POSSIBLE that you are not getting the full picture with a svs sub. Can you at least admit that what I just said is possible. If you haven’t heard better bass how do you know it exists???
3) Everything is relative. A lot of people think a golden ear is bs. I have had people on this forum tell me time and time again what I perceive is false!?!?! Just because you can't tell the difference in subs other than spec doesn’t mean that there is no difference. People are so egotistical about this, they can't fathom something being better than they are. They can't hear what others hear so how they hear things must be how everyone hears things.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Eric, I think your fears are logical, i.e. that obviously after someone has spent money, and risks LOSING money by returning a mail-order product, that unless the product is REALLY bad, they will convince themselves that it is all that it claims to be.

However, I think we'll both agree that the people who populate this forum are obviously very interested in A/V stuff, and generally pretty demanding and knowledgeable when it comes to performance.

I also agree that I think a lot of people will go find that mail-order brand, even though it may not be THAT much of a bargain, and just because nobody has ever heard of it, or it's a little off the map, it then becomes "THE BEST EVER FOR THE MONEY!!" etc, etc.

Now, as for the Revels, I like revel a lot, (they are a *bit* too expensive for my student budget). And they are DEINITELY not hyped marketing BS. I personally think Dynaudio is better for the money(that's just my taste), but then I can't afford the higher models of those either :/.

Now, the B15s ARE pretty nice, but then again, they cost about 3 grand.

I heard a setup with B15s, dual B15s actually, set up by Madrigal reps, and while they were loud and deep, they were pretty sloppy, IMO. It could have been the setup still, though. I more recently heard another revel setup, it was in a flurry of different demos, but I think they had a new sub that they were showing off, I can't quite remember. This was definitely much better, and it went ridiculously low. The wall next to me was pulsing with REALLY deep bass, and it was much tighter than I remember the B15s being.

So, anyway, what I'm getting at is that the B15 from my limited experience isn't in my opinion worth the 3 grand. I think you could do far better, and a lot more bass from SVS than with a B15. On the other hand, the bass from the Salons was very good. Again, that's just a speaker not a sub, but VERY capable in the bass arena, and very impressive indeed. The best bass I've ever heard was from Dynaudio. I've never heard a REAL kick drum reproduced by a speaker before to sound like... well, a REAL kick drum.

Anyway, I'm rambling, and I forget what I was trying to say the FIRST time i typed this out, before this computer froze up.

I think you should hold out on your judgement on SVS until you get to hear one. SVS is not for everyone, but it definitely has it's place in the marketplace for cheap, quality bass. The raves about SVS are very warranted, IMO, based on the price and what you are actually getting. If they were 2-3 times as expensive as they are, they'd be your average high-quality sub, albeit perhaps not as sexed-up looking.

So you should try to find a local person with an SVS to check out, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised what a cheapo-priced 600 dollar or so pure performance STEAL of a sub can dish out, and dish out WELL. I think you well know and have heard all those silly and pathetically ridiculous boomy car bass machines. Those dish out HUGE amounts of one-note, sloppy hidiously crappy and worthless bass. HARDLY good musically or for theater. We both know that THAT kind of bass is in no way comparable with say a Revel sub, OR an SVS. I hope you get to hear an SVS anyway, that way you can know for sure whether it is or is not a great sub.

 

[David*RT]

I think the more crucial issue is not how the SVS subs sound (as they are universally acclaimed and will prove more than pleasing for the buyer), but rather if your significant other will take to having a boom tube in the living space.

Unfortunately, SVS has very low WAF. It takes a very special wife or bribery (i.e. pearl necklace or Saks dress) to get her to accept it.

I personally use ACI Force subs due to their small size. Easy to hide and won't upset the wife. It's loud, low, musical enough to give me a WIDE smile on my face.

Can a top-line SVS sub go lower or louder than my ACI Force? I have little doubt. But, I'm the type of guy that won't wreck his hearing with over-the-top SPLs (i.e. I don't want hearing aids at 60). Plus, like most wives, they will ultimately say "Honey, it's tooooo loud!!" For me, I derive enjoyment watching DVDs with my family......watching movies by myself with the volume cranked is booooring.

Thus, my rationale for the Force sub. If you have a wife that doesn't mind that overgrown black sock look in the living room who also is a major headbanger, then more power to you! (I know few girls like this, though--especially as they get older and start having kids.)

Bottom line: SVS is one of the great subs in audio. You will enjoy it if you can jump the rather substantial "hurdles."

 

[ChrisWiggles]

You are arguing from a point of non-experience. I have to call you on it. It's not fair for you to argue your assumptions about a product with no knowledge or experience with it at all.

SVS subs ARE good. Period. For the money, they are FANTASTIC. As for there being better out there, I think if you reach the point of cost-no-object speakers, i.e. those 80K dynaudios, then as a whole package I think those would be better. As far as subwoofers go, I'll let the experienced owners of the most expensive SVS, the B4+ speak from their knowledge, as I have no firsthand experience with their subs other than my pci 20-39. But Ron and Tom are damn honest folk, I was skeptical of their claims of comparison subs with this little 600 dollar sub, but they were exactly correct, which leads me to believe their claims about the B4+.

When ron says "There really are no subs that compete. Not 15" subs, not 18" subs, not anything designed for the home market. In fact, we know $25,000 subwoofers that should be afraid right now. " I am ready to believe him. Skeptical? Yes. But I would not be surprised if that claim is dead honest.

I reiterate your claim "[there are] subs that sound better, sound better because you hear things and feel things you can’t hear with other subs." You realize that given x amount of dollars, this could just as easily describe SVS. Until you hear SVS, I think your arguments are without basis and unfounded. We could discuss between speakers we may prefer differently that we've both heard, but you can't argue the superiority of a speaker or subwoofer over another that you've never heard. To turn the tables, perhaps you have convinced yourself, that your Revel sub is THE BEST out there, etc. etc. etc. I think that argument is fubar, but I make a point nontheless.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

"If you have a wife that doesn't mind that overgrown black sock look in the living room...."

David,

Have you actually ever been to our website? You might want to just to refresh on what SVS offers these days. I'd say your info is somewhat out of date.

All,

We're not going to argue with any REL fan about whether he/she should be happy with their products but you need a bit of a reality check if you want to claim there are subs that sound "way better than SVS" but haven't yet had a chance to see/hear something in a comparable price point from SVS.

We want folks to be happy with whatever they buy and buy based on good information based on reality not ad hype, that's all.

We've seen various products in HT-land develop something of a insidious cult-like following that's frankly a bit scary to witness. We want no part of it. We're thrilled that we have lots of fans, but have long accepted the fact that inferior competitive products likewise will have lots of fans. That's OK. Some people "get it" and some don't. Our web site and the reviews (pro and layman alike) are what they are. We're confident we can exceed the sound quality of any OEM at any price point we compete at. It's not something we guess at, they are designed that way and we don't trust our own bias so we test, test test.

Will that mean EVERYONE buys an SVS? No. Simple. Get over it... we have.

Still, if you get an inferior product but claim it's a superior product you are going to take some heat for sure, but I hope it's not done in the name of SVS. Others have as much passion for accuracy and truth as they do in any particular product. There are lots of folks like that here at HTF I think.

Frankly we just don't care if there are folks that are less than secure with their "other sub" purchase. Remember, we're keeping pretty busy taking care of folks that do take the time to go through our site and listen to folks (yes, weed out the chaff) that have little/no vested interest in SVS. Since it's so easy to return one we're fairly sure the ones that kept theirs and rave about them were convinced on their own that our products are the "real deal", whose reputation is hard-won, and not based on glossy marketing hype... but rather a passion for audio excellence at affordable prices.

Ron

 

[Lew Crippen]

David makes the same point I would have made, other than to admit that it is not only my wife who does not care for the SVS cylinders. I think them quite ugly (but then I don’t much care for the black box look of Hsu either).

Looking at SVS’s new offerings, it seems as though they are going a long way toward addressing that problem. Some of their newer models would fit in with a variety of decors (of course not all).

Another reason that I give this company a lot of credit—they actually listen to those who are not their customers (but might be) and respond.

Edited to note that I read Ron’s note after I posted. You guys really are responsive—I am quite impressed.

 

[David*RT]

Ron,
Yes, I have been to your website recently. And I stand by my statements.

If you can get the B4 "wood" veneer in your box units, I'm sure more wives would perhaps be more apt to accept it (i.e. cherry, maple, rosewood, etc). (Not to thread crap, but I like what HSU did with their VTF2 design in eye-catching Rosewood veneer.)

I know the tube design has its merits. I'm NOT questioning its performance or your rationale for its design. I'm NOT questioning your business model either as I know veneer options cost money.

My only issue is WAF and for them, they do INDEED CARE about what goes into the living room. If you're trying to be ALL things to ALL people in the sub category and want to address the WAF market, then IMHO more effort needs work in this area. Kudos, though, for your interest in wanting to further address this issue.

In the world of subs, there are other subs that have a much higher WAF due to their size or aesthetic design (again, we're not talking performance here). My statements are based on my and my friend's WEIGHTED AVERAGE experience in their family households with performance subs. Wives make a man's life very difficult (Didn't you know this? )! They really don't care about the last word in SPL measurement or harmonic distortion. All they care about is WHY/WHAT is located next to the antique bookshelf and why the color doesn't mesh the living room decor.

Wives have VETO power in spades. And they use this veto power frequently and with authority.

 

[CurtisSC]

There are very few reviews that don't praise SVS, and many that do.

I am fan of Hsu subs. I have heard all of their current offerings and think they offer terrific value.

That said, eventhough I have never heard an SVS sub, I have no doubt that SVS offers great values as well. And like Lew says, the fact that they listen to customers is great. But just like I did with Hsu, I wouldn't buy one unless I heard it first.

In the end, you need to do what makes you happy. And if the sub you have makes you happy....then what is the argument?

 

[Ron Stimpson]

OK David,

As long as you realize that probably half the subs we sell are neither tubes, or "socks" but rather normal looking boxes in a variety of colors.

And very soon a variety of wood veneer colors, so your perception for that need is a good one.

"SVS=Overgrown Black sock" is just a pretty poor characterization IMO, so simply wanted to make sure you knew it wasn't accurate or fair, wholly based on our current offerings or our sales.

No matter. Just wanted to set the record straight.

PS I'm married. I get WAF, I just happen to have a wife that's got an open mind ;^).

Ron

 

[JessPrice]

I am the dominant one in the relationship. She understands she can't get in the way of my home stereo!!!

Actually, she can't wait for me to make all the purchases and set up the system. She brings up, "I can't wait for you to get the home theater!! I want to fell that bass you have been talking about!!" almost everyday. She even will put in 1/2 of the cost. Ahhh yes, she makes me happy. :b

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

I was one of the first customers to buy an SVS(order#7). I got a 16-46. I have a 7000+ cu. ft room and had 2 THX certified subs(an Altec Lansing powered and a Citation 7.4). Before I upgraded the SVS driver to make it an SVS 16-46i, it was louder and cleaner than both the THX subs combined from 20Hz to 30 Hz. Both of the THX subs cost $1700 combined and the SVS cost around $580. I sold one of the THX subs and would sell the other to buy another SVS but I can't find a way to ship an 90+lb box. So the subs are really, really, good. Someone above mentioned the room. This is probably the most important thing in getting good bass at the listening position after getting a capable subwoofer.

 

[CurtisSC]

I am the dominant one in the relationship.

Ahhh...I see she has you trained well.

 

[David*RT]

Ron Stimpson said: PS I'm married. I get WAF, I just happen to have a wife that's got an open mind.

Ron, It has nothing to do with my wife's "open-mindedness" my friend. The WAF is found wanting IMHO and my friend's opinions. Your subs are not yet ALL things to ALL people.........YET(?)

I know of at least 11 household friends whose wives would NOT accept one of your subs into their living space.

If you want to address this issue fairly, isn't it you that must have an open mind to the alternate picky WAF market (that is if you want to address this issue)?

You may view me and my friends as a niche market that isn't worth the hassle, time, expense, effort to address. So be it. That is your prerogative for sure.

But, my friends and I can vote with our wallet as consumers.

I can tell you, however, that one of the reasons Mark Schifter at www.av123.com is so crazy successful with his Rocket line is because they are aesthetically beautiful to the WAF community. One only has to read the men rave about how their wives have been pleased with the aesthetics of their products (http://www.avsforum.com). Look at the sub they are coming out with: http://www.av123.com/products_produc...fers&product=1 Nice Rosewood veneer (v.s a granite paint job). Believe it or not, wives do take issue with such things. Bose and Mirage Omnisats are also crazy successful b/c in the female's mind, if such electronics is barely visible, the better.

Ron, you make great performing products for sure. But please check your ego/pride at the door when considering that perhaps(?), maybe(?), your products still are not yet everyone's cup of tea in the LOOKS dept.?


Kind Regards,
D


P.S. I'll tell you one thing....When I was in the subs market, had SVS met some of the aesthetic standards that other competing subs offer (coupled with the legendary SVS performace factor), you would have won me and a lot of my friends over as customers.

 

[JessPrice]

Ahhh...I see she has you trained well.

I do what I can.

 

[Eric_Strickl]

To turn the tables, perhaps you have convinced yourself, that your Revel sub is THE BEST out there, etc. etc. etc. I think that argument is fubar, but I make a point nonetheless.

I have never said the revel b15 was the best sub period. Everyone here wants to point out reviews or stats and if you look at what the reviews have to say about the revel you won’t buy svs. Keep in mind I have never heard an svs. I am using your own "its just paper" logic on you. Notice no one has touched what I said about revels product testing standards with a ten foot pole. Svs can’t compete and it is simple logic. They use test methods that most other high end companies can’t even afford let alone svs. Revel is part of the madrigal group (now harman spec group) which makes most of the gear that is considered to be the best of the best period. I have not once read a review on the no 32, the salons, the mc12b, the no40 the ultima gem embrace voice setup or the no383 that didn’t agree that all of these item are currently true reference pieces(if there really is such a thing). Svs can not compete with all of the talent working for revel (Kevin Voeks from snell anyone???) Few companies can hang with madrigal.

 

[Ron Stimpson]

"your products still are not yet everyone's cup of tea in the LOOKS dept.?"

Yep, no problem, we're working on it. But, no matter what though SVS's will NOT be for everyone. It doesn't matter how they look (same for ANY look, some folks will love it some will hate it. No matter what "it" is.).

Maybe that's an anti-pride/ego thing? ;^)

Ron

 

[ChrisWiggles]

That sounds like marketing to me. B4+, an amp, and a BFD would yield far more I would think. I want to see some numbers on your B15.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Oh BTW, I just vaguely remember that the B15s were recalled...

If as you claim, "More time effort and experience has gone into the b15 than subs that cost twice as much." this seems illogical does it not?

Looks are great, but I don't buy ANY audio product based on looks, or what other people who know nothing anyway would be impressed by. It's all about performance. If it were about looks and status and WAF, I'd own Bose...

 

[MikeLi]

Hey I got my PB2+ before I knew they were coming out with nice colors but didn't matter as it is hid in the corner with a nice doiley (sp) put on it by the wife. By the way we cheated alittle and had some of the rubber earth quake putty and put alittle under it so it would not fall off. Again had not much time to play with this thing but it beats the pants off my dual NHT's that I had with 100 watts going into each one. Not even a close comparison. Cant wait to get the rest of my speakers and dial everything in.

Also to come to Ron's defense... I have never saw him do anything improper with folks here. He always there to answer anyones questions about subs (not just his own). I have never met the man but I think he is a pretty stand up guy that just like what he does and loves to help people. The world needs more like him instead of whiners!

 

[Eric_Strickl]

Madrigal has received one report of electric shock; though, no injuries have been reported.

1 report!!! Only 1 and it only affected the black ash subs. If anything this is a testament to how good of a company they are. I saw a thing about the recall on the nightly news. Yet only 1 person got shocked and he wasn’t even injured. Few companies would recall an entire line of 3000 dollar subs for 1 minor shock
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