Best Receiver Under $400? (1 Viewer)

[Robert_J]

Ian,

You have done more research than 99% of the people who come here asking for speaker recommendations. All we can tell them is to audition as many different models and buy what sounds good to you in your price range. Now once you get them in, you will still have to set them up and calibrate them. But we will still be here for any questions.


I see you mentioning subwoofer cables but no sub has been mentioned. What are you using / buying?


I only use Eggleston as my example because I've had a chance to tour the factory, talk to an owner and get an hour session listening to the Savoys. Based on the parts and labor that goes into those speakers and selling them through a dealer, the MSRP is on target for a low volume manufacturer. Those guys are as crazy about sound quality as I am only my budget is a LOT lower. That's why I am finishing up a set of 3 Dayton III's http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/D3/dayton3.htm and will finally give my current speakers back to their rightful owner (a family member).

 

[iBalisy]

Oh of course, I know Eggleston is a great company and the speakers are amazing, they're just expensive. The subwoofer I'm going to get is the Polk Audio PSW110 (very nice sounding subwoofer). I wanted to make sure that the subwoofer cable I get isn't crap, but the Belkin PureAV Silver series seems to be a good bet for the price.


I think I've decided! Woo-hoo!!


Thanks for everything everyone!

 

[Robert_J]

Originally Posted by iBalisy

The subwoofer I'm going to get is the Polk Audio PSW110 (very nice sounding subwoofer).

According to the Polk specs - http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/psw/specs.php , the -3 db point of this sub is 38 hz. For a lower price the Dayton 12" sub - http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-635 , will reach 1/2 octave lower.

 

[iBalisy]

Thanks a ton, robert j! I went and read reviews of the polk audio psw110 and found that people didn't think it was powerful enough and it cut out a lot on the upper bass frequencies. So I will go with the polk audio rm85 (same as the rm510 except it doesn't come with the psw110) and the dayton sub-120 12" sub.

Thanks again!

 

[iBalisy]

Actually, after reading some reviews, does anyone think that the BIC Venturi V1020 would outperform the Dayton Sub-120? How about the BIC Venturi V1220? (the 12" model) Any others? I'm pretty sure the Dayton would do fine until I can replace it with something in a much higher price range, I just want to find out if anyone thinks another would do better in the price range.

 

[CB750]

Save you cash and buy a sub from SVS and you will be covered for life. Their other speakers are also well regarded on this forum.

 

[iBalisy]

If I did want to do that, which SVS would you suggest sub $500?

 

[iBalisy]

Also, where could I find the SVS SB12-NDS? That one looks rock solid and I do love SVS subs, but I thought they would have been out of my price range. If I were to get an SVS subwoofer, it'd be that one.

 

[iBalisy]

Actually, it looks like the SB12-NSD is pre-order right now, so I'm not going to get something I know very little about. It looks good, but I'm not going to spend $550 on a subwoofer which has no ratings or reviews yet. What about the PB10-NSD? Other suggestions? So far, I'm still leaning towards the Dayton, as it is highly regarded for the price and many have suggested it.

 

[Robert_J]

That's like comparing a Chevy Impala to a Chevy Corvette.


Since you are new here's the history. Ron (the S in SVS) met Tom (the V in SVS) in the old DIY section here when Ron was building his first sub. A friendship and then a business grew out of it. Other forum members have gone on to work with their company. In my opinion, their biggest catch was their driver designer. When SVS was starting out, they purchased drivers from TC Sounds and Destijl Engineering. When they decided to bring their driver production in house, they lured Stephen away from TC. I'm still a fan of Thilo and his TC Sounds drivers and Scott's drivers as well. But I've used some of Stephen's hand built 15's before and they were amazing.


The PB-10 will outperform the Dayton 12 in every aspect.

 

[iBalisy]

Ok, thank you for clarifying! That's a wonderful history of a company, and one that I would think would produce only quality speakers and subwoofers. That's a little besides the point though as I am on a budget and I think it would benefit me more to get the Dayton now and then upgrade later to the SVS. That is, unless they have a subwoofer $200 or less?

 

[iBalisy]

Ok, so my decision comes down to this: I can get a Dayton right now and in several months invest in an SVS SB12-NSD. It's the newest SVS and it's only pre-ordered right now, but it looks like it would destroy the Dayton any day. Or, I can wait, not get a subwoofer and in a few months, get an SVS.


I'm leaning towards the former because not having a sub for a few months would really annoy me.


Apart from this decision, would anyone suggest I get a different sub from SVS? Which other subs would be good options between the $300 - $750 price range since that would be what I'll spend on a sub eventually. I think the only one from SVS will be the SB12.

 

[Robert_J]

Other internet direct subs that we suggest here:

Elemental Designs - Ben has taken that company from a dorm room to small business of the year in his state.

Epik Suwoofers - Chad is a member here and Scott Atwell (RE Audio fame) provides drivers

Lava Subwoofers - New company making waves

Hsu Research - Dr. Hsu still designs the subs.


As I state in many of my threads, I'm a big fan of DIY. If you have the time and the tools it is the best value. The used market is also great. If you were local, I'd sell one of the many subs I have sitting around but I'm not shipping anything that big. Sometimes an SVS will appear on Ebay or in the For Sale section here. The older models will still do 95% of what the new models will do.

 

[iBalisy]

Thanks for the suggestions! I took a look and found that these companies seems very quality and sound oriented, so I'd trust them more than any larger producer as I do with musical instruments and such. I picked out a few that these companies offer in my price range that I might actually be willing to get now:


Lava LSP12 - $338

Lava LSP10 - $245

Elemental Designs A3S-250 - $350

HSU Research SF2 - $319


The Lava looks great, and I would like to have a 12" woofer at 250 watts, but it's not all that necessary if a 10" at 150 watts from Lava would sound better in a mid-small room for much less. The Elemental Designs AS3 is probably the least likely as it is $200 more than I was going to spend, but 300 watts to a 10" diameter woofer has got to move air pretty well for it's size and might sound better than the others(?). Finally, the HSU SF2 looks great for a 10" sub at 200 watts, but I feel like the Elemental Designs 10" sub would perform much better and it also looks more solid. Also, I'm not so crazy about the downfiring port on the HSU as those tend to (from the subs I've heard and what people have told me) not be as good for music, which is going to be the majority of the usage for my HT.


Right now I'm leaning towards the Lava LSP12 or the Elemental Designs AS3-250. What do you think Robert_J?

 

[Robert_J]

Ignore what you have previously heard both in person and from people about downfiring ports. These subs are completely different.


If you are trying to decide between a 10" and 12" sub, go with a 12". Yes it might seem like overkill but you don't want your sub stressed. When a 10" sub is pushed to the max excursion it is also producing maximum distortion. At the same SPL as 12" sub may only be working at 60% of capacity and producing under 1% distortion.


Now you are comparing a ported 12" sub from Lava to a sealed 10" sub from eD. Ported subs are also more efficient down low. Based on that, I'd go with the Lava when comparing these 2.


As a disclosure, I like sealed subs more than ported. But to satisfy my craving for low end, I have gone with dual 15" subs and a 2,400w pro amp to power them.

 

[iBalisy]

Ah I see. I had only heard a very cheap downfiring sub and I have heard a lot of nice front firing subs. I was actually leaning towards the lava sub because of the dual ports and the 12" factor. The elemental designs 10" looked nice, but I would rather eventually pair two ported 12" subs than two sealed 10".

well unless anyone has anything further to say about subs, or speakers, I think I've made my decision. I know I'll be gasper spending a little extra on the sub, but getting more from it.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Robert_J]

Dual ports is nice visually but it is there for a reason. The more port area, the less chuffing. When designing a sub, you have to keep the air speed in the the at or under a specific speed or you will hear a chuff noise when you push the sub to its limits. The only problem is that if you increase the size and/or number of ports to keep the chuffing down, the length of the ports increase dramatically to keep the tuning at the same frequency. If you look closely, you can see that the ports are flared. This allows the engineer to use a smaller port without the chuffing noise.


The only reason you would want a 2nd sub is if this one can't keep up with your listening habits. If you max it out when watching the latest action movies, then a 2nd will help. If you don't max this one out, a 2nd will just be a waste of money.


Yes, as your budget increases the performance increases until a point. In my opinion, that point is around $2,000. After that, you are paying for a name like Thor's Hammer from Wilson Audio - http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product_html/thor_movies.html . That sub lists for $21,000 but really doesn't have close to that much technology in it. Heck, the drivers are only about $250 each from NCA Labs - http://www.ncalaboratories.com/about.html . There's nothing mysterious about sub designs. It's just the physics of moving air.

 

[iBalisy]

You make a very good point, I would mainly want to add a second sub to get a more linear sound in the low range and to cover more surface area in the room evenly, as the initial sub will be more or less off in the left front corner.


[FONT= 'Times New Roman']Sorry about that repeat post, not sure why that happened, but I did post it from my phone, so...[/FONT]



Anyways, I was checking out a Forum thread on Denon receivers on AVS forum (which I don't entirely trust as much as hometheaterforum.com) and people were talking about the sound quality differences between the 1911, 1611, and 2311ci. Most were saying that they all perform about the same, and the real differences are the features; i.e. the number of input HDMI slots, digital inputs, and other technical features. I've found that the difference between the 1911 (my initial choice) and the 2311ci (my choice now) are much more than features. At least, this is how it seems to me.


1. The 1911 is only capable of 24-bit/96 kHz digital, whereas the 2311ci is capable of 24-bit/192 kHz. This is important to me because the Asus D2X sound card in my system can output 24-bit/192kHz digitally.

2. The 2311ci has a significant amount more wattage than the 1911 to each channel (most say the wattage is not that important, but I doubt Denon would increase the wattage by 15 watts per channel if it wasn't important at all)

3. The 2311ci is the initial receiver offered by Denon which supports dual subwoofers, which I will be doing in several months.

4. People were saying that it is a basic of rule of thumb is to spend about 2 - 3 times as much on speakers as you do on the receiver. I will eventually, in the next two years, likely upgrade my speakers so I'm not so worried about this.


Sorry to go back to the receiver question, but I just want to confirm that what am planning is correct in terms of the necessary receiver. For what I want, it seems to me that the Denon 2311ci is the lowest priced receiver which will offer these features. What do you think?

 

[Robert_J]

1. CD sampling is 44 kHz and digital audio tape sampling is a little better at 48 kHz. 96 kHz is twice the sampling rate. I think that is standard for super audio CD and other high resolution audio formats. I have no idea what you would use 192 kHz sampling for unless you were producing your own digital music. If your source isn't 192 then your sound card capabilities are overkill.

2. 15 watts isn't significant. A 100% increase in wattage is only 3db at best. More than likely it is about 2db max due to power compression.

3. A $3 Y-adapter from Radio Shack will give you dual outputs. Now if each sub output has separate, level and distance controls then that is a nice feature.

4. True. Unless you are building your own speakers.

 

[Jason Charlton]

Originally Posted by iBalisy

2. The 2311ci has a significant amount more wattage than the 1911 to each channel (most say the wattage is not that important, but I doubt Denon would increase the wattage by 15 watts per channel if it wasn't important at all)

The fact that most people don't realize wattage numbers are meaningless is precisely WHY Denon has gone to the trouble of adding a measly 15 watts to a different model.


There are a number of worthwhile differences between the two models including: 2 additional HDMI inputs, 2 additional digital audio inputs, 1 additional component input, and a suite of multizone support that, honestly, most users won't use - but it's a nice feature if you're in the market.


Now, if you were to itemize those differences to your "average consumer" and ask them if it's worth a $300 price premium, I would think most would say "no way!", but then tell them that there's an extra 15 watts of "power" and many of them would probably change their minds. Lots of folks look at wattage first, and everything else never (or almost never).


I personally, see little reason to go "top of the line" on a receiver. Electronics technology changes: HDMI is still evolving, audio formats change, new devices are concocted every year - it's all in flux. Of all the components in your system, the receiver is the most in danger of becoming "outdated". Speakers, on the other hand, well, a good set will last a lifetime. That's the hardest part of starting out in HT - you should spend the most money on speakers, but when you have nothing at all, you need to spread it all a little thinner to get the ball rolling.


If the receiver has enough inputs to support your devices, and can decode the latest audio formats, then that's all you need, IMO.