A Few Words About The Big Country (redux) -- in Blu-ray (2 Viewers)

[willyTass]

My copy finally came in and I compared to the original. The good news for those of us that couldn't stand the flicker problem on the old is that it is indeed fixed. As is the stretching issue. And I would say given the significance of both of those issues plus the bonus features that overall the new Kino release is better than the old. But the bad news is there are 2 problems on this new release that weren't on the old.

1) First they mastered the audio different and it is now 16-bit instead of 24-bit. After doing back-to-back listening tests with my headphones between the old and new, here is what I can say: The old audio had a slightly less clear, but much more spacious sounding feel which fits the feel of the movie perfectly (since it is after all The *BIG* Country). The new audio is much more "in your face" and while perfectly fine, just isn't as enjoyable to me with this particular picture. For those that know audio, that is a big part of the benefit to 24-bit over 16-bit is that it gives you increased headroom to work with and makes things more spacious sounding as opposed to "more cramped". This would all be less noticeable to someone not listening with headphones as I was, but it's still noteworthy. I would have rather they just copied the audio track from the old release - it was perfectly fine - I don't know why they felt the need to make changes here.

2) The second issue is that there are more noticeable compression artifact issues as compared to the old, which I am sure is a function of the decreased bitrate given to the feature on the new disc to make room for the bonus features. If they had just stuck to what the original announcement seemed to indicate and released as a 2-disc set instead of 1, this likely would have been avoided.

It's kind of frustrating to me that Kino fixed some problems while introducing new ones. Overall, it's still the better option and a noticeable improvement as RAH mentions, but it still isn't as good as it SHOULD be.

if its 24 bit Audio you're after on this title , its now available through Germany with the new remastered video and even better grain encoding than the Kino

The Big Country • US 60th Anniversary Edition Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

 

[chrislong2]

if its 24 bit Audio you're after on this title , its now available through Germany with the new remastered video and even better grain encoding than the Kino

The Big Country • US 60th Anniversary Edition Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

Thanks. I'm happy enough with the Kino release that I don't think I'll triple-dip at this juncture, but it's good for others to know that there is another option out there that might be worth checking out. It looks like this German "Weites Land" set from Koch Media also has some additional special features over what comes with the Kino one, including isolated music track which might be of particular interest to some. If I didn't already have the Kino, I think I would heavily consider ordering this one over the Kino.

 

[willyTass]

i just snagged the German version from ebay . the multichannel analog outs on my OPPO 105 are capable of 24 bit /96 khz decoding . Ill see if these ears can hear a difference LOL , but at my age i doubt it . Now that ive bought this title for the 3rd time , expect a KINO announcement fo the 4k UHD very shortly

 

[Paul Rossen]

i just snagged the German version from ebay . the multichannel analog outs on my OPPO 105 are capable of 24 bit /96 khz decoding . Ill see if these ears can hear a difference LOL , but at my age i doubt it . Now that ive bought this title for the 3rd time , expect a KINO announcement fo the 4k UHD very shortly

As someone who is contemplating a third purchase on Blu ray...Is this new German release better video and audio?

 

[willyTass]

Video yes

audio I don’t know, I have a high end audio set up , I’ll aim to get my wife to switch sources with me blindfolded and see if I can hear a difference between Koch vs MGM vs Kino. I doubt I’ll be able to hear a difference .

I only ordered the German version today but you can see from the caps that there is less DNR compared to kino

 

[David_B_K]

It looks like this German "Weites Land" set from Koch Media also has some additional special features over what comes with the Kino one, including isolated music track which might be of particular interest to some. If I didn't already have the Kino, I think I would heavily consider ordering this one over the Kino.

I hung onto my laserdisc of The Big Country because it had an isolated music track as well as an audio essay on Jerome Moross' score. Because I consider the score to be the western score to end all western scores this interested me.

One interesting thing about the isolated score is that it included a couple of cues that were not used in the film and you could thus run the scenes with Moross' intended music (albeit with no other sound). One cue was "Old Thunder". This was to accompany the scene in which Heston tries to get Peck to ride the wild horse. The music had a somewhat jocular quality, and Wyler must have decided to keep the scene more tense by not using any music. The other cue is the circus-type music that is used after Peck successfully breaks the horse. The original cue was a circusey theme based on the dropped "Old Thunder" theme. Instead an entirely different circus theme was used (not sure if Moross even wrote it as it does not seem to based on any other music from the film).

 

[chrislong2]

I wouldn't want to make any claims about video or audio quality without having seen/heard it in action, but based on the screencaps I personally prefer the Kino look. I'm not skilled enough with video to know if Koch artificially sharpened the picture from what was provided them (it looks like it to me) or if Kino softened the picture, but in any event I prefer the smoother look of the film on the Kino. But others may differ. And trying to judge picture quality with stuff like this based on screencaps is a tough business. In actual movement, I have no idea if I'd prefer the Koch over the Kino.

As far as the audio specs, if the specs shown for the audio tracks are correct then the German Koch disc seems to have only lossy audio despite showing as DTS-HD MA. It may very well be an error in reporting where only the core audio is being reported, and not a problem in the disc itself. But it looks like only the core which was encoded at 384k. It does appear to be 24-bit though, over the Kino's 16 (but the Kino was lossless).

In any event, unless listening through quality headphones, one probably couldn't tell any notable difference between ANY of the 3 blu's with this film, no matter how great the audio setup is. I usually DO watch with headphones (and just did again recently) and I still absolutely maintain that the original 24-bit audio is more enjoyable for me with this film because it is more "expansive sounding" which fits the mood of this film over the Kino 16-bit. So even if the Koch is compressed, if it's 24-bit as provided to them (and not just artificially declared by Koch to be 24-bit but actually using 16-bit provided audio) and has that more expansive sound a la the first blu, I still might prefer it also over the Kino. Or not.

So for me I have no idea whether the audio or video would actually be "better" to me over the Kino unless I experienced it, but it's nice to have so many available HD options for such a worthwhile film. If only all films had such choices! Some of the seemingly added special features alone may be worth it for some to check out the German release.

 

[chrislong2]

For anyone interested, after running an Amazon review through a translator, these appear to be the special features on the German Koch release. Many of these are on the Kino as well, but not all.

1. German and English trailer
2. Audio commentary from western expert Christopher Frayling
3. Documentary "Directed By William Wyler" (approx. 56 min.)
4. Outtakes for the documentary (approx. 21 min.)
5. Interviews with Cecilia, Carey and Tony Peck (approx. 12 min.)
6. Interview with Frazer C. Heston (approx. 11 min.)
7. Interview with Cathryn Wyler (approx. 13th min.)
8. Featurette about the shooting (approx. 5 min.)
9. Cult director Larry Cohen talks about Chuck Connors (approx. 3 min.)
10. Audio recordings by Charlton Heston (approx. 15 min.) And Burl Ives (approx. 13 min.)
11. Audio documentary about Gerome Moross (approx. 49 min.)
12. Isolated music track
13. Picture gallery with rare advertising material and photos from the set
14. 16-page booklet by Nikolai Bühnemann

 

[David_B_K]

Looks like the exact features as the laserdisc. I may have to buy this title again.

 

[OliverK]

I wouldn't want to make any claims about video or audio quality without having seen/heard it in action, but based on the screencaps I personally prefer the Kino look. I'm not skilled enough with video to know if Koch artificially sharpened the picture from what was provided them (it looks like it to me) or if Kino softened the picture, but in any event I prefer the smoother look of the film on the Kino. But others may differ. And trying to judge picture quality with stuff like this based on screencaps is a tough business. In actual movement, I have no idea if I'd prefer the Koch over the Kino.

The Kino version is filtered a bit which leads to some loss of detail:

The Big Country • DE Blu-ray vs. US 60th Anniversary Edition Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

Of course this is the kind of difference that is not easy to spot but if available why not go for the added detail and a more pristine picture? Looks like a nice upgrade from my MGM Blu-ray of this fine film and as we only sit about one screen width away when watching this kind of movie there is a chance that we'll be able to derive some benefit from the improved detail.

 

[Alan Tully]

I'll be buying the Koch just because it's region B.

 

[dpippel]

At $44US shipped for the German Koch release, I think I'll remain happy to stick with the Kino disc.

 

[OliverK]

At $44US shipped for the German Koch release, I think I'll remain happy to stick with the Kino disc.

That is one the reasons I skipped the Kino disc - it looked a lot less tempting from the other side of the pond with me already owning the MGM version

 

[willyTass]

KOCH GERMANY seem to be grain Friendly

The Party • US Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

City Slickers • US Collector's Edition Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

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The Boys from Brazil • US Blu-ray vs. DE Special Edition Blu-ray

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[OliverK]

KOCH GERMANY seem to be grain Friendly

The Party • US Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

City Slickers • US Collector's Edition Blu-ray vs. DE Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

The Boys from Brazil • US Blu-ray vs. DE Special Edition Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

Very good detective work - they have come a long way in several regards.

Another one:

One, Two, Three • DE Blu-ray vs. US Blu-ray

caps-a-holic.com

What I find the most depressing is that enthusiast labels like Shout and Kino feel the need to do this kind of filtering.
Might be an idea to go into the Kino insider thread to let the insider know that they would better save the money for the filtering as it will result in a better product for less money.

 

[chrislong2]

I know this is blasphemy to some, but not everyone wants a lot of grain... Sometimes the grain itself can become a distraction. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I can think of several blu's where too much grain took me out of the movie - when that happens not a good thing IMO. Some filtering makes sense to me - it's just a matter of the degree. Of the Kino and Shout films I have, I've been pretty pleased with their approach. And minus what I think are mostly just some compression artifacts, I'm relatively pleased with the overall look of Kino's The Big Country. But it's nice that there's a label like Koch that is offering a more "grain-heavy" approach to offer a different take.

 

[Alan Tully]

Totally agree. You shouldn't be seeing any film grain unless you're looking for it. Thinking back to when I went to the cinema a lot, late 50s 60s & 70s, I can only remember noticing grain in the late 70s when a lot of cheap print stocks were being used.

You get a lot of people over at blu-ray.com who aren't happy unless the screen is crawling with grain.

 

[OliverK]

I know this is blasphemy to some, but not everyone wants a lot of grain... Sometimes the grain itself can become a distraction. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I can think of several blu's where too much grain took me out of the movie - when that happens not a good thing IMO. Some filtering makes sense to me - it's just a matter of the degree. Of the Kino and Shout films I have, I've been pretty pleased with their approach. And minus what I think are mostly just some compression artifacts, I'm relatively pleased with the overall look of Kino's The Big Country. But it's nice that there's a label like Koch that is offering a more "grain-heavy" approach to offer a different take.

Nobody here wants grain as in give me grain on top of what's on the film. Just leave it as it is in most cases and people who do not like it can filter some of it on their TV - you can always reduce it later but we cannot put it back in.

Also we are not talking about a movie that has too much grain in the first place. The Big Country is a very good looking large format production that does not have a lot of grain to begin with so why not leave it alone?

 

[chrislong2]

Nobody here wants grain as in give me grain on top of what's on the film. Just leave it as it is in most cases and people who do not like it can filter some of it on their TV - you can always reduce it later but we cannot put it back in.

Also we are not talking about a movie that has too much grain in the first place. The Big Country is a very good looking large format production that does not have a lot of grain to begin with so why not leave it alone?

Fair enough. I know that on first glance on screenshots of The Big Country posted above, the Kino ones are more appealing to me and I know that I like the smooth look on the Kino in motion, but as I don't have the Koch one with more grain showing to actually see in motion and it may be that I'd be perfectly fine with it and maybe even prefer it, particularly because you are right - it's a large format production. I don't have a problem with a little-to-mid amount of grain and in fact I usually like at least a little. I do generally have a problem with a lot of grain though, which I have seen plenty of people that seem to love. Anyway, you make a totally legit point that once removed we can't get it back.

 

[Douglas R]

Totally agree. You shouldn't be seeing any film grain unless you're looking for it. Thinking back to when I went to the cinema a lot, late 50s 60s & 70s, I can only remember noticing grain in the late 70s when a lot of cheap print stocks were being used.

You get a lot of people over at blu-ray.com who aren't happy unless the screen is crawling with grain.

I agree. I never noticed grain on a cinema screen in the '50s and '60s either and it wasn't a subject which anyone used to talk about. I also agree that it was films of the 1970s where grain was more noticeable. "The French Connection" was one example as was "Thunderbolt and Lightfoot" (that was very grainy on the London Pavilion screen) and I never liked the grainy look of films from that decade. I do find it odd that some Blu-rays have a considerable amount of grain (is it really grain?) which wasn't apparent on the cinema screen.