International Tales of Hoffman: Trailer (1 Viewer)

[Stefan Andersson]

Thx for clearing that up. You're the only one here who's seen all this of course!

The Guardian poster refers to an aria by Franz (Massine). This is the ballet/pantomime and it occurs in Act 3, the Antonia act, not in the Prologue. The description of the reel that was found all relates to Act 3.

Thank you davidhare and ABaglivi for your replies!

 

[AnthonyClarke]

This is all very exciting. I'm glad I ordered this as soon as it was announced .. I just hope that Amazon.co.uk doesn't pull its trick of dropping its price straight after release date so that pre-orderers get stuck with the highest price!

That happened to me with the two recent Region B Truffaut box-sets .. the price was slashed immediately the pre-ordered sets were posted out. I did complain and Amazon did to their credit gave me a refund ... but how many people would have gone back to the site to check current prices so soon?

 

[EddieLarkin]

The ad for this in Sight & Sound states the restoration includes "previously missing scenes".

 

[Alan Tully]

There's a little interview with Thelma Schoonmaker about this over at aint it cool.


http://www.aintitcool.com/node/70680


EDIT. And there was an interview with Thelma Schoonmaker on The Film Program this afternoon (BBC Radio Four), where she talked about a six minute sequence - which I don't think has been seen before - it's each actor in turn joining up with the opera singer that's supplying their singing voice.

 

[Yorkshire]

Ah, wonderful:


Quint: I'm glad you guys are fighting the good fight and I hope you guys have the stamina to keep them coming. I really want a Blu-Ray of A Matter of Life and Death, so you need to go make that happen for me. Just for me, nobody else. I'll be fine with that.


Thelma Schoonmaker: We're actually working on it and trying to raise the money for it. I'm very hopeful.


Come on!


Steve W

 

[ABaglivi]

There's a little interview with Thelma Schoonmaker about this over at aint it cool.


http://www.aintitcool.com/node/70680


EDIT. And there was an interview with Thelma Schoonmaker on The Film Program this afternoon (BBC Radio Four), where she talked about a six minute sequence - which I don't think has been seen before - it's each actor in turn joining up with the opera singer that's supplying their singing voice.

The six-minute sequence refers to a cut that was made to the Antonia Act (3) not to the tacked on Epilogue where the actors join up with the singers. The restored six-minute cut was seen in the original 138-minute release both in London and in New York.

 

[ajabrams]

Has anyone heard any news about a Region A release? I can't believe there won't be one....

 

[Alan Tully]

The six-minute sequence refers to a cut that was made to the Antonia Act (3) not to the tacked on Epilogue where the actors join up with the singers. The restored six-minute cut was seen in the original 138-minute release both in London and in New York.

Yes, you're quite right, I listened to the program again online. The six minutes missing from the third act (cut out by Korda, Schoonmaker said) is now back, plus the extra stuff.


I've never seen the film, not really my cup of tea, but I'm getting interested now, esp as the visuals should be really stunning.

 

[Stefan Andersson]

Hi! A question for ABaglivi -- in the thread re:the French AMOLAD Blu you wrote:


"The missing section from the prologue is placed in the Kleinzach aria and has a strange flash forward depicting Hoffman as the ugly jester. The Venice cut is a rousing chorus as Hoffmann joins the revelry. These cuts make the scenes play smoother and, if only for historical purposes, should be restored to the film as the creators, P/P, Beecham, Heckroth, and Arundell, conceived it."


Thank you very much in advance if you would like to comment some more on this information. Did the film originally include these two cuts? Are they still missing? Was the drinking song in the Venice story longer originally?

 

[ABaglivi]

Stefan: The cuts were in the premiere release. I am awaiting the arrival of the new Blu from Amazon.uk. Will post when it is in hand.

 

[Stefan Andersson]

Michael Powell described suggested cuts in Hoffmann in a letter to Emeric Pressburger.

Powell discusses cuts in the Kleinzach, Olympia, Venice and Antonia segments.

Go here and scroll down to read the letter:

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/features/tales-hoffmann-exclusive-materials-making-powell-pressburger-masterpiece


To view next page of letter, click on circle at bottom of letter page.

Kleinzach: material deleted between the end of the ballet and the "Stella" poster. Seems to be a musical number. "Punch" is mentioned (alluding to Punch & Judy shows?). Approx. 2,5 minutes.

Olympia: "The Cockerel Cut". Might it be Nicklaus´s song about a wind-up rooster and a mechanical doll? Also, dialogue relating to Olympia and Nicklaus deleted.

Venice: Powell wants to restore material, cut from the banquet scene, back to the English prints. It is "vulgar & rowdy". Could it be the rousing chorus, as Hoffmann joins the revelry, mentioned by ABaglivi?

Antonia: a longer discussion about two alternatives for shortening the sequence.

 

[david hare]

Cut and pasted form my criterionforum post:

Just to add to Stefan's post and links , I notice in the Quin interview piece with Thelma she also keeps referring to the "six minutes" that have been restored of arias to the Third act, plus the curtain calls at the end (a bit over a minute.) She is again working from the misinformed timing of the older cut releases (ORT) which are erroneously reported everywhere including the BBFC, imdb, Criterion LD and DVD covers and the BFI's own records as 127 minutes. That cut has never been 127 minutes, it is, without opening production logos 124 minutes 15 seconds, and with opening logos for Criterion and Studio Canal 124 minutes 47 seconds.

So we need to be more precise for the record with the actual duration of restored footage. I should have my copy of the BD by noon today and will do a physical timing from the Oppo but in the meantime I understand the current ORT for the new BD with the added footage is 133 minutes and some seconds (guessing over 30.) Which makes the total time for restoration material as nine minutes not six plus curtain calls as Thelma and others have been inadvertently calling it from the publicity material. The remaining missing Niklausse aria would have run approx. four minutes, which brings us neatly to the always quoted ORT pre Korda chop first release cut of 138 minutes.

The record is very important here I think especially as this is now the most complete print ever publicly seen, and god knows the Niklausse aria might turn up some day from one (if not more) of the 16mm IB prints which were privately circulating in the 70s and 80s.

 

[ABaglivi]

The Nicklaus aria (Cockrel cut) from the Olympia act runs 2 minutes 54 seconds, timed from the soundtrack recording.

 

[david hare]

thanks, that's a big help. There may have been a few seconds lead in as well.

 

[ABaglivi]

That timing includes the lead in or recitative.

 

[david hare]

I'm using the Roger Edens version of the word for classical recitative.

 

[Stefan Andersson]

The BBFC passed Tales of Hoffmann at 140 mins. 7 secs. on March 1, 1951:


http://bbfc.co.uk/releases/tales-hoffman-1951


Never heard of this length before (assuming their timing is correct).

 

[Stefan Andersson]

On Criterionforum, "teddyleevin" comments further on Powell´s suggested cuts:

"Stefan Andersson wrote:
Kleinzach: material deleted prior to the "Stella" poster. Seems to be a musical number. "Punch" is mentioned (alluding to Punch & Judy shows?). Approx. 2,5 minutes.

Olympia: "The Cockerel Cut". Might it be Nicklaus´s song about a wind-up rooster and a mechanical doll? Also, dialogue relating to Olympia and Nicklaus deleted."



teddyleevin:

"The former is most likely the "Allumons le punch!" that Hoffmann sings in the Epilogue to lead to a reprisal of themes from the Prologue (namely Kleinzach song gets a last verse). "Punch" could be short-hand for any of the drinking music from the Prologue (of which Offenbach has more than in the film) or something interpolated from the Epilogue, which would certainly fit.

The Cockerel cut as you say is almost certainly The one you mention, which, if included, would help Nicklausse's through-line and be almost necessary if the Muse ending were found. There is some more recit around this in which Nicklausse participates in teasing Hoffmann about his love for Olympia."


teddyleevin is a knowledgeable contributor to the Hoffmann discussion here:

http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2794&start=125


Steve Crook discusses the Nicklausse/Muse scene in several posts here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044103/boa ... /234154355

Photo of Pamela Brown as the Muse: http://s26.photobucket.com/user/Rachael ... 8.jpg.html


Steve Crook maintains a P& P web site: http://www.powell-pressburger.org/Members/Steve.html

 

[ABaglivi]

It would be helpful if this thread could be merged with The Tales of Hoffmann Blu-ray Disc News thread. Moderators?

 

[david hare]

The BBFC passed Tales of Hoffmann at 140 mins. 7 secs. on March 1, 1951:


http://bbfc.co.uk/releases/tales-hoffman-1951


Never heard of this length before (assuming their timing is correct).

It almost certainly is not. They also passed the new restoration in January this year at 127 minutes, the "mystical" ORT which never existed but which has been plaguing various "authoritative sources " from 1952 to the present day.