Suggestions for Speaker Placement/Cable Installations (1 Viewer)

[Plokij]

Hi everyone!
I have the rare opportunity to wire my house with most of the framing exposed and would love to hear some of this community's opinions on what I can do in terms of achieving my goals for audio setup.
For the time being, my wife and I can probably only afford to do some DIY low voltage wiring installation ourselves. For the most part, we are comfortable doing this ourselves, but my only fear is that I don't do enough to future proof our house, so any suggestions you might have are welcome and appreciated! The drawing below is a picture from our electrical plan.
We really have two goals in mind:
1) a surround sound setup in the living room area
2) a setup to listen to music (just music for casual listening, not like audiophile setup) in the bedrooms, dining room, and kitchen.
Here's what I was thinking for each room based on my research on the topics:
Living room: 5.1 surround sound - In wall L/R/C speakers on that tiny left wall, 2 surround speakers in the ceiling behind the couch
Dining room & bedrooms: 2 in ceiling speakers at the corners. Volume control in the bedrooms maybe
Kitchen: A single in ceiling stereo speaking towards to upper part of the kitchen
I'm just trying to get a rough idea of speaker placement, # of speakers, etc to achieve the goals stated above. Any advice or opinions are welcome and appreciated. Thank you so much in advance!
Paulhttp://www.hometheaterforum.com/image/id/877040/width/517/height/700

 

[Plokij]

Sorry I really should have illustrated what I had in mind.
Here I have the 5.1 surround sound in the living room, and music listening setup everywhere else. In bedroom #1, I have a alternate configuration with in wall speakers to go with the TV.
I also show volume control for each room.

 

[schan1269]

First thing you need to do is figure out exactly how you want this controlled.
There are set-ups out there that "cost more" yet make installation "very quick and easy"...
What I would do...(costs more but super simple)
Run Cat 6 all over the house. Set that up with a NAS. Then each room gets a controller for the audio as well as its own 1/8th input in case the person in the room just wants to hook up an Ipod/phone etc.
The "networked" controls you can pipe in your stereo in the main room as well...cause, depending on what NAS you get, it can raid whatever the stereo in the main room is doing as well.
The traditional method(less up front cost, but takes a LONG TIME to set-up)
Buy a multi-zone receiver...run speaker wire all over the house. There are "volume attenuators" you can put in each room. The "main zone" still has volume control...the "volume attenuator" just "turns it down" if too loud.
You really need to visit a shop in your area that sells this stuff. The tech on this stuff changes monthly.

 

[Plokij]

Thanks for the feedback, Schan1269. I'm actually doing other low voltage wiring at the same time and putting in a distribution panel in one of the closets. I was planning to do cat6 anyway, so I'm very intrigued by your post. However, I have a strong background in computer networking and am a little confused by your use of terms. For example, when you say NAS, do you network attached storage (e.g. a networked hard drive) or are you referring specifically to Network Audio System the transport protocol for audio over networks?

Run Cat 6 all over the house. Set that up with a NAS. Then each room gets a controller for the audio as well as its own 1/8th input in case the person in the room just wants to hook up an Ipod/phone etc.

When you say controller, could you give a concrete example of a device (or a webpage )? Is there a networked device that can act as a controller or are you talking about a networked enabled receiver or a computer?

The "networked" controls you can pipe in your stereo in the main room as well...cause, depending on what NAS you get, it can raid whatever the stereo in the main room is doing as well.

I'm still confused by your use of the term NAS. You talk about it like it's a special network device other than networked storage. Do you think you could point me to a webpage or clarify?
Thanks again.

 

[Plokij]

Thanks for the feedback, Schan1269. I'm actually doing other low voltage wiring at the same time and putting in a distribution panel in one of the closets. I was planning to do cat6 anyway, so I'm very intrigued by your post. However, I have a strong background in computer networking and am a little confused by your use of terms. For example, when you say NAS, do you network attached storage (e.g. a networked hard drive) or are you referring specifically to Network Audio System the transport protocol for audio over networks?

Run Cat 6 all over the house. Set that up with a NAS. Then each room gets a controller for the audio as well as its own 1/8th input in case the person in the room just wants to hook up an Ipod/phone etc.

When you say controller, could you give a concrete example of a device (or a webpage )? Is there a networked device that can act as a controller or are you talking about a networked enabled receiver or a computer?

The "networked" controls you can pipe in your stereo in the main room as well...cause, depending on what NAS you get, it can raid whatever the stereo in the main room is doing as well.

I'm still confused by your use of the term NAS. You talk about it like it's a special network device other than networked storage. Do you think you could point me to a webpage or clarify?
Thanks again.

 

[Plokij]

Thanks for the feedback, Schan1269. I'm actually doing other low voltage wiring at the same time and putting in a distribution panel in one of the closets. I was planning to do cat6 anyway, so I'm very intrigued by your post. However, I have a strong background in computer networking and am a little confused by your use of terms. For example, when you say NAS, do you network attached storage (e.g. a networked hard drive) or are you referring specifically to Network Audio System the transport protocol for audio over networks?

Run Cat 6 all over the house. Set that up with a NAS. Then each room gets a controller for the audio as well as its own 1/8th input in case the person in the room just wants to hook up an Ipod/phone etc.

When you say controller, could you give a concrete example of a device (or a webpage )? Is there a networked device that can act as a controller or are you talking about a networked enabled receiver or a computer?

The "networked" controls you can pipe in your stereo in the main room as well...cause, depending on what NAS you get, it can raid whatever the stereo in the main room is doing as well.

I'm still confused by your use of the term NAS. You talk about it like it's a special network device other than networked storage. Do you think you could point me to a webpage or clarify?
Thanks again.

 

[schan1269]

I'm talking Network Access Storage(which is the only NAS I knew of). With the advent of (especially HP further build up of) Windows 7 and the working of "the cloud"...it makes more sense to send the "source"(be it the NAS, Pandora/Slacker/Itunes) all over the house over Cat6 then each room gets a "mini network controller" that then connects to speakers in the room.
Essentially (and there is more than one manufacturer) each room gets a LCD pad controller. Depending on "what" is on the network, the LCD pad controller has access.
1. You can buy a network AVR where anything connected to it is considered "on the network" (even a CD player)
2. Get a NAS and anything you put on it is "on the network"
3. Any PC in the house(with cloud/windows 7/HP Media share) is "on the network"(meaning each room can access web based apps: Spotify/Iheartradio/Slacker)
And you can actually accomplish all this via WiFi now.
We have a Netgear WNDR4500. Our NAS is connected directly to it. All DLNA TV/BD receivers have access, at all times, to Itunes/Spotify/Slacker etc, etc.
The only thing we don't have(and plan on it soon) is a networked AVR that can run an accompanying CD player...so from the bathroom...
While taking a shower, my phone(a Blackberry) can access the AVR...play the CD...and my phone is connected to a small set of computer speakers.
Basically, in our house, we have...
The WNDR4500 giving access to "whole home audio" to two Ipads, one Ipod, two different HP laptops*, Acer laptop, Asus Netbook, Emachine, a blackberry, two android phones, a DLNA TV, two DLNA BD players and a Directv HD-DVR. (one of the bathrooms actually has a Sonos LCD controller with a pair of ceiling speakers. That was put in when that "was the goal" of the entire house until it was abandoned to get DLNA BD players in the rooms that didn't have a Directv HD-DVR)
* between the two HP laptops and the NAS, those three make "ground zero" for everything else to raid music/video/pictures from.
The house is a 1910-ish farm house. The original part of the house is only 1/3rd of what exists now. That original part is where the 4500 resides. The "new section"(built 10 years ago) has a Netgear WNCE3001 feeding a Netgear FS605 which then feeds the entire rest of the house in Cat6. Each room has an ethernet port in case the "Wifi Sucks". We chose to put the WNDR4500 where we did to make sure the old part of the house(where the bedrooms/bathrooms are) has internet.
By the way, cool stuff that can be done...
The Sonos in the bathroom. If somebody is in there(the bathroom was redone 4 years ago with a garden hot tub) the two Android phones and the Apple devices can see that it is in use. Those 5 devices can change the volume, change the source and everything else...if "we" want to be cruel to the person in the bathroom. My cousin hates Metallica. One time she was in there I changed the music she was listening to to Metallica while she was trying to give herself a "spa day".
Directv has the new "everywhere" app. You can load music into the Directv, on your PC...essentially taking your NAS "everywhere". My cousin is in the UK, she got on the network and took pictures to share with people she was with over there(of the dogs...the house etc)
Also, while over there. When she takes pics, she can load them to her laptop. And with 4 button clicks, accesses the NAS over here and loads the pictures to it...thereby allowing her to erase the pics on her end(if she chooses). She went to a bar one night, listened to a band. Bought their CD. Loaded the CD into her laptop...sent the music over to the NAS.

 

[Al.Anderson]

You talk about it like it's a special network device other than networked storage.

Adding to what Sam said, the difference between a disk drive on a network and a NAS device, is that the NAS is a storage device with a mini operating system running. This allows it to do more than simply provide file access, for instance, it can act as a DLNA server (as Sam mentioned).

... Loaded the CD into her laptop...sent the music over to the NAS.

Sam, I run a small NAS, but have only ever used it locally. How do you permit/configure them to allow external access? I would have thought you'd need a registered IP address, is there an application that provides that kind of translation?

 

[David Willow]

FWIW, I use PLEX for video (it does pictures and music too) and I use Subsonic for audio. Both apps allow me to remotely watch/listen to media remotely without having a permanent IP. I run both on a 7 year old Dell with Ubuntu Server. I use external hard drives for storage but you could just as easily us a NAS device.

 

[Plokij]

Hey Sam et al.,
Thanks for the clarification. I see where you were going with it now. My coworker built a DIY NAS in a mini-itx case and has the lightweight OS running in it so it works purely as a network storage. I understand how that part works.
I think what was confusing me was the concept of doing audio/video over cat6 as I am not familiar with all the different methods of doing it and am not really experienced in the capabilities of receivers. Do you still use an audio receiver in your setup or are you using something more like:
NAS -> cat6 -> audio/video adapters -> amplifiers -> speaker cable / hdmi -> speakers/tv?
Or can the audio receivers output all sources via their ethernet port so it would be more like:
Receiver -> cat6 -> some kind of adapter -> speaker/tv?
Sorry I have so many questions. I often have no problem learning the stuff if I have a reference, but most of the time I don't even know what the adapters or setups are even called. For example, are "baluns" somehow involved?
Thanks so much.

 

[Plokij]

To put my lost reply in context, let me maybe start with a concrete scenarios. Could you maybe describe the hardware and wiring connectivity like I have below in your Cat6 setup? Again, my ignorance is mostly in the realm of how the data gets from Cat6 to speakers or a TV. Note: my wife and I barely watch TV and still use a CRT, but I know the newer TVs are network enabled but I don't know to what extent (e.g. can they receive video via their ethernet port or would I have to convert cat6 to hdmi). I'm not sure if there are network enabled components sitting in between etc.
Wiring the media closet to living room 5.1 surround (approx 20ft apart):
My plan was to keep the dvd/bluray + receiver in the closet and access it via IR extender. I was going to run speaker wires directly from the speaker locations to the receiver in the media closet.
So the audio would be:
Receiver -> speaker wire -> speaker locations
Video
Receiver -> HDMI cable -> TV
Music Listening in Dining Room
This is a different zone for music listening. There was no networked devices in this setup. If I wanted to play an ipod, it'd have to be from the media closet. I can see why this is a bit of a shortcoming because it would be extremely desirable to play music off a NAS or ipod/ipad instead.
Receiver -> speaker wire -> speaker locations
Thanks again!

 

[Plokij]

Hi Casey,
I'm very confused by your placement suggestion. Do you think you could draw a picture or explain it again? I'm imagining the room split up into a 3x3 grid:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
Can you please explain the placement in relation to that picture? For example: Speaker 1: In Square 1, 4th from left, 4 ft from top.

 

[schan1269]

I won't get into Ubuntu, but is part of the equation. Essentially, for us, Directv and HP Media Share work together and the cobwebs took about a month to work out. My cousin(the only one who sends/uses the NAS from somewhere else) shadows from one laptop to another(still uses the IP. She is used to doing that when she worked in an office in Vermont taking care of RMA for other employees in other cities. She knows how to set up a "shadow"...shadow=remote access)
For your "speaker placement conundrum"...
What he means is "pick a side of the room" for the speakers. Across each other stuck in a corner won't work. Also, your kitchen needs two speakers unless you decide to install a single source stereo speaker(basically there is no "stereo" source where you can "just hook up one speaker").
My suggestion, if you must do ceiling, is to do motorized. They fit flush in the ceiling when not in use, and when they turn on, they pop out and swivel(if they need to swivel) to point towards the center of the room. Motorized speakers, in the overall scheme, would probably only add 5-10% to your overall budget.

 

[Plokij]

Thanks Sam.
Do you think you could just clarify one last thing for me? Once again, I'm struggling on what piece of hardware converts the audio data traveling via Cat6 to the analog speaker wiring. You imply in your earlier post that there are "mini network controllers" in your rooms sitting between the NAS and speakers, but can you give me a concrete product that would do this?
NAS -> Cat6 -> ???? -> Speakers
Or how would you complete this without a receiver and also power the speakers? Presumably the NAS, which as this point is really just a computer managing the processing of audio/video and sending out the packets to be decoded somewhere else and translated to analog for the speakers.
NAS -> Cat6 -> ???? -> 5.1 surround sound speakers

I'm talking Network Access Storage(which is the only NAS I knew of). With the advent of (especially HP further build up of) Windows 7 and the working of "the cloud"...it makes more sense to send the "source"(be it the NAS, Pandora/Slacker/Itunes) all over the house over Cat6 then each room gets a "mini network controller" that then connects to speakers in the room.

Everything else you said I agree with. I've used Linux for years and can figure the software side of things out easily.

 

[schan1269]

What I'm thinking of is...
NAS -> cat6 -> control pad -> speakers.
Here is what Crutchfield sells for Russound...
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-WewaWaxHITR/g_331550/Russound-Multi-room-Music-Systems.html
The Niles Solo6 is more like I was thinking, except I don't think it provides its own power for the speakers. I'm still looking for the ones where the control pad itself is also the amp for the speakers. Essentially, it uses a "car stereo amp chip" of around 40wpc, but for the life of me...can't remember the brand I first saw 2 years ago.

 

[schan1269]

Ok, this is closer, but I don't think this one is "network"...I think it needs to be fed RCA...
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gnLBtLVvBJF/p_717AU1000W/On-Q-lyriQ-High-Performance-Amplified-Keypad.html
But at least I remember to search for "amplified keypad network"
Edit:
This one uses a "home base".

 

[Plokij]

I get it now. Thanks!
Essentially there are pre-matched, brand specific components that allow for a Cat6 enabled audio system (which allows things like the amplified keypads). This is in contrast to the older, traditional setups with a multi-room receiver and analog speaker wire routed throughout. This article was very helpful.
In the pre-matched setup, it uses presumably proprietary codecs or some signal modulation for data transport over Cat6, and amplified keypads can get power from the system's distribution and provide power to speakers like the picture of the Legrand OnQ system below:

 

[Plokij]

I get it now. Thanks!
Essentially there are pre-matched, brand specific components that allow for a Cat6 enabled audio system (which allows things like the amplified keypads). This is in contrast to the older, traditional setups with a multi-room receiver and analog speaker wire routed throughout. This article was very helpful.
In the pre-matched setup, it uses presumably proprietary codecs or some signal modulation for data transport over Cat6, and amplified keypads can get power from the system's distribution and provide power to speakers like the picture of the Legrand OnQ system below:

 

[schan1269]

And to expound on this On-Q LyriQ...
A couple of years ago a company came up with a "home base" system but the keypads don't need the Cat6. The entire thing is its own wifi and your NAS/Ipod/Ipad simply link into an individual keypad via bluetooth or the entire wifi network(your pick).
Then 2 years ago, another company came up with this where this is no "home base". You don't "need" the home base if the only thing the house is sharing is a NAS.
In this day and age of even Ipods being wifi with bluetooth...having to have a "Cat6 home base" is dying. It isn't dead yet, but it is circling...

 

[Plokij]

I guess that's how technology is these days. I just hope the price of the nicer setups start coming down. I think I will stick to the lower budget system for now and just additionally wire all sorts of Cat6 setups now that I understand how it's connected.
Thanks for the lively discussion! I learned a lot.