Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (1 Viewer)

[Nelson Au]

I don't recall if I related this story before, I think I have. In the 70's, at the height of Star Trek fandom before the first film, I saw an interview with Gene Roddenberry who said a network friend told him that recently networks included demographics and Star Trek hit every mark. If NBC had been using demographics, they speculated Star Trek could have had a 10 year run!But to think about your speculation had TOS had another 100 episodes, I have thought of that. And my feeling is that I'm kind of glad it went this way and the series only had three seasons. Of course I would have loved a 4th. But my guess is if NBC had given in to Roddenberry's ultimatum, and the show was given the Monday timeslot, and he came back to produce, the season could have been better then the Frieberger one. But a fourth and fifth made me worry if the quality could hold up. They could have gotten lucky and found another Coon. But I look at Mission Impossible and the series had a sameness to it. Of course that's due to the formula. It's hard to say, but I'd guess the series would not have the following it has. It's like James Dean and Elvis. They went out young and left people wanting more. There may not be films or TNG or the rest.My guess is we'd be saying how great the first two seasons were and the series went downhill after that. Maybe no remastered Star Trek! But then again, they could have pulled off two more great seasons.

 

[Ockeghem]

"And my feeling is that I'm kind of glad it went this way and the series only had three seasons."Nelson,This is my sentiment as well.

 

[FanCollector]

Such a good analogy about James Dean. And I'll bet you're right about movies and spinoffs and so on. Long-running hits spawn follow ups immediately (Frasier, AfterMASH, Archie Bunker's Place, etc.). It's culty things that get the attention many years later. Had Star Trek been a seven or eight year major success, we might have gotten a reunion TV-movie and that's all.The continuing quality would certainly have been a concern, as Leonard Nimoy has described in sharing his mixed emotions about the cancellation. What you said about Roddenberry made me think...every TV show has staff turnover, but most of my favorites had a creator/executive producer who stayed throughout the show's run. (Very often, they leave so as to strike while the iron is hot and get new shows up and running.) When that original voice is gone, the shows tend to suffer. There are some major exceptions of course, but in general there is something to be said for continuity, at least at the top.

 

[Nelson Au]

That s an interesting thought Lee. TNG had a rocky start, but once some new producers came in, it started to gel better. Then Roddenberry was able to let it go. If TOS had a longer run, say five years to complete the 5 year mission, would that still have made it the cult show it was! Perhaps no animated series, but films might still have happened? The other thing is would the cast had been as willing to stay on board. Shatner probably. I bet Nimoy might have tired of the role if there was more then 5 years in a row. I suspect Kelley would be happy. The supporting cast may have wanted out had their roles stayed the same. Oh well, history is what it is. Everything turned out well! Though I keep thinking of the dark days in the 1970's and how the cast mostly had to struggle. Shatner stayed so busy with anything! Nimoy was busy too. But the rest didn't fare as well. So would another few years on Star Trek made a difference in their careers. Need a hint for the trivia?

 

[FanCollector]

Yes, my general rule was predicated on the shows being good at the start. If things aren't going so well at the beginning, then new leadership can make a positive difference. Sometimes a very dominant and powerful star can provide that leadership continuity when there is change at the top also (e.g. Alan Alda or Peter Falk).Shatner and Nimoy were signed for five years from the beginning, and I believe Kelley's renegotiation put him in the same position. The others had no long-term contracts, but I bet they would have stayed as long as possible. But I can certainly see Nimoy not wanting to stay forever after the initial contract was up. Continuing in his absence would of course have been a creative disaster.Yes, I think I'm stuck on the last two trivia answers.

 

[Nelson Au]

One object has a name and the other is a "flicker".

 

[Nelson Au]

Roddenberry's voice is very clear in TOS! I'm learning that more and more in the book.

 

[FanCollector]

Would Triskelion's trinary sun count as a phenomenon?

 

[Nelson Au]

"From Earth, Triskelion's three suns are just a flicker of light. "Commendations Lee! That was an unusual case where the Enterprise visits a trinary sun.One more.

 

[KPmusmag]

Great post Lee!Who knows how Bewitched would have turned out had Tammy Grimes took the role. It may not have done as well? Montgomery seems so right for the role. I'll have to look up who Tammy Grimes is.I recall Roddenberry discussing in interviews fighting with NBC and the change in time slot to Friday would kill the show. And you are saying it actually did well on Friday!The idea that Star Trek and Mission Impossible were hemmoraging cash from Desilu is new to me. I knew they were expensive, but I didn't realize that. In the end, with Star Trek as big as its become, must have earn way more back today then Mission did. And these weird Hollywood deals probably still says Star Trek is in the red! Shatner probably still hasn't gotten his cut.I had the same thought as I read that NBC did the sneak peak week and premiered a week early that that helped spike the shows ratings. I thought it was great that it maintained a good level of high ranking through the first and second year.Gosh, I hate to finish this book. I'm enjoying it so much. So I hope the second volume is out soon!

I wanted to say a word or two about Tammy Grimes, because she is a very interesting actress and she actually has two Star Trek connections that I know of - and maybe more that I am not.

Most people think of Debbie Reynolds as the musical Molly Brown because of the film, but Tammy Grimes originated the part on Broadway. Her cast album performance is fantastic, and I actually prefer it to the movie soundtrack (with all due respect to Debbie, whom I adore).

The first Star Trek connection is that In 1973 she co-starred with William Shatner and Paul Winfield (from Wrath of Khan) in a really laughable TV movie about a haunted jetliner called "Horror at 37,000 Feet". Imagine a 90 minute really badly written Twilght Zone episode. I am sure they considered it the nadir of their careers (as did, I am sure, co-stars Chuck Connors, Buddy Ebsen, France Nuyen and Russell Johnson [although, in his case, where can you go but up from "Gilligan's Island?"]). I have to admit that when I saw saw it at 10 years old it scared the *%$? out of me, but watching it now I can't believe how bad it is. They say Shatner overacted in Star Trek...

The other ST connection is that Tammy was married to Christopher Plummer (Chang in ST VI) and is the mother of another interesting actress, Amanda Plummer, whom she named after her character in Noel Coward's "Private Lives", for which she won her second Tony.

 

[Nelson Au]

Hey Kevin,

Thanks for the insights on Tammy Grimes. I did look her up and found most of the info you related.

I didn't know about the connection to Horror at 37,000 Feet though! I must confess a certain guilty pleasure to seeing that film! I haven't seen it in many many years. I had been scared by it too! And I always wanted to see it again. The effects at the end were bad. And I believe Roy Thinnes was in it too. That was a pretty big whose-who cast of former 1960's TV stars too.

Lee and Scott, just FYI, this afternoon I completed my Third Season marathon with Battlefield, Whom Gods Destroy, Zetar, Eden and of course Turnabout Intruder. I did notice something and looked it up. A yeoman was helping Mr. da Vinci while McCoy was treating Lord Garth at the end. She looked familiar and she's been a background player like Messrs. da Vinci, Paskey and Blackman and the others! She has about 36 credits, including all kinds of jobs from serving coffee to being a maiden on Yonada to stand-in for Grace Lee Whitney! Her name is Jeannie Malone. Not sure we discussed her before.

 

[FanCollector]

Interesting rundown, Kevin. I like Tammy Grimes, and her show's failure just illustrates how television success is not simply a question of talent, but of finding the right vehicle. I didn't see the 37,000 Feet movie, but I remember her in a truly bizarre PBS show from the early 80s in which various actors, playing themselves, solved crimes and invited the audience to solve them at the same time. It was so weird because the idea was that people like Gene Barry and William Conrad were personally called to crime scenes. Ms. Grimes was in a piece with Howard Duff where they not only had to solve a mystery but were implied to be romantically linked. I don't know the story behind it, but it felt like a pilot.Those all-star movies were usually junk, but sometimes they were good. There was a PBS version of The Andersonville Trial from around that same era with William Shatner, Richard Basehart, Jack Cassidy, Buddy Ebsen, Cameron Mitchell, and Martin Sheen that was just great.Jeannie Malone was news to me! I looked at some pictures and she didn't look familiar until I saw one from Return to Tomorrow that rang a bell. Easy to see her as Grace Lee Whitney's stand-in.

 

[Nelson Au]

I was a little surprised to read The Conscience of the King entry. The whole business with the subplot of Yeoman Rand being jealous of Lenore and cut was interesting and I wonder what it would have been like if Gerd had time to film it. Plus the extra dialogue about the women in Kirk's world that wasn't used that is part of the subplot! But as you noted Lee, it seemed there was an effort to remove any threads of future Rand involvement in the series by cutting out all her involvement in that episode. That paragraph about a scene to be filmed of Karidian roaming the corridors sounded odd to me given how they establish he is a recluse. It's too bad NBC was disappointed the episode lacked action and was a disappointment. I can see that. As a kid still discovering the series, it didn't do much for me until much later and I could appreciate the story more. I liked how everyone including Barbara Anderson saw Lenore as crazy! The two recollections of the fever blister was amusing. I'm going to have to definitely watch that episode today and look for it. To me, the way her face is lit works for that scene. The whole lighting of the episode as Cushman related is right in Gerd's wheelhouse! It will be interesting to read the full Alternative Factor entry. Need a hint for the last trivia answer? I'm beginning to wonder if it was already mentioned!

 

[FanCollector]

I agree it's a pity that the network had little faith in the episode. (Maybe, given the ratings, they were right.) I've always liked it. I have two very different reactions to the two significant edits Cushman describes. I think having Rand come into the middle of the scene with Lenore on the observation deck would have been a terrible mistake. Firstly, it makes Kirk look like an idiot. "I'm going to try to get close to this girl to determine whether her father is the most wanted fugitive in history. But if anyone needs a report signed, just come find me downstairs." Secondly, it would break up the rhythm of my favorite scene in the episode for something unnecessary. As the finished episode proves, they don't need Rand for Lenore to ask about women in Kirk's world. She just asks anyway, and it's fine. Lastly, I think it would come across as mean to Rand, and that is surely a dimension better left unexplored. Karidian walking the halls could have been effectively eerie, particularly as Gerd Oswald would have filmed it. I realize that in the basic mapping of the story, Karidian is Claudius. But there is a secondary interpretation offered in which he signifies the ghost of Hamlet's father "doomed for a certain term to walk the earth." He even plays that part in the production on the Enterprise. There is a sense in which Karidian is already dead (hence the seclusion you mentioned), and seeing his ghostly wanderings might have been an interesting way of visually representing his inability to find peace. (It really makes me sad that no one saved these scenes that were filmed and then cut for time or content--not to add back into the shows, but to view separately.)I'll take the trivia hint...this last answer is the phenomenon with a specific proper name?

 

[Nelson Au]

The last answer is a body in space and it is referred to by a surname.I agree the flirtation scene on the observation deck is great as it is. In watching the episode, I watched Rand give Lenore the eye and then move on into the bridge. Her back is to the camera the rest of the time.

 

[Nelson Au]

Oh yeah, wanted to add, when I went to school, my focus was on the visual arts. So I didn't study Shakespheare. I did have a literature class, and we did read a few of his works. But I wasn't in the right frame of mind to adsorb it. So the line about being doomed to walk the Earth has been lost to me. I'm doing the house chores and have MeTV on, wow, I see Celia Lovsky In a small part on The Streets of San Francisco!

 

[FanCollector]

Apparently I was not in the right frame of mind either. The line is actually "to walk the night," which would make even more sense in context of the episode.Not a surname, but they do discuss approaching the Coalsack Nebula.

 

[Nelson Au]

Coalsack nebula is a good one that I missed! I just looked at the wikipedia entry on it. It's mentioned in the fiction entry that it was mentioned twice in Star Trek and 2001: A Space Odyssey. Great catch!Still one more.

 

[Nelson Au]

Scott, Lee! Tonight's airing of Columbo on MeTV is airing an episode called Troubled Waters. Must be the one Scott was thinking of that occurs on a cruise ship. Patrick Macnee is the captain and Robert Vaughn is the main guest, so I assume he's the murderer.

 

[FanCollector]

"Is it about my wife? She likes to have a good time...sometimes she gets carried away."Very good episode. Terrific plot and the setting manages to vary the formula while still fitting it. And Robert Vaughn is excellent. So many good actors did their best work on Columbo. Leonard Nimoy compared it to playing tennis with a great opponent who forces you to play your best game.