What's new

Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (4 Viewers)

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
I got through the Court Martial on Star Base 811 chapter. Lots of revelations there! Surprising everyone thought the episode was a dog. What a story on the development of the early pass at the script with all the running around to find Finney on an asteroid and prove he was alive and that the computer itself was what changed the records to make Kirk guilty! And then the business of Cogley Sr and Jr! And Finney Jr too. One of the revelations as you Lee and Scott have discussed several times was what seemed like something was missing that was related to when Cogley said he was getting ready after Jame said she realized that Jim and her father were such close friends and ruining Jim wasn't going to bring her father back. A whole little extra sequence was written between Kirk and Jame. And Roddenberry i think was right to feel it wasnt characterisitc of Kirk to confide to Jame like it was written. And both Justman and Mankiewicz brought up several times that there had to be a scene where Jame is brought back at the end to pay off the plot point. Win De Lugo's recollections of the filming was also interesting insight into the atmosphere on the set and the grinding nature of TV production. I knew William Shatner's personal life was going bad about this time, but I've not read anything specific about it before. So it's interesting how De Lugo recalls his experience of Shatner having a moment and then getting it together and professionally finishing the scenes. (and then later how Mr. Shatner made things up to De Lugo) And then Marc Daniels who must have known what was going on was just focused on getting through it and ripping through the scenes to get back on schedule. I never noticed that Kelley's performance at the bar when he meets Areel was stilted as Cushman relates it to how Daniel's set up the scene. I'll be looking for that.In the end, the episode may not be a classic, but it had its moments. Wiggling 5 fingers! :).
 

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson Au said:
One of the revelations as you Lee and Scott have discussed several times was what seemed like something was missing that was related to when Cogley said he was getting ready after Jame said she realized that Jim and her father were such close friends and ruining Jim wasn't going to bring her father back. A whole little extra sequence was written between Kirk and Jame. And Roddenberry i think was right to feel it wasnt characterisitc of Kirk to confide to Jame like it was written. And both Justman and Mankiewicz brought up several times that there had to be a scene where Jame is brought back at the end to pay off the plot point.
Nelson,

Thanks for this information. Even without seeing the footage that was eventually discarded, that scene has frequently left me thinking that something cryptic was being said by Cogley. Does the book go into or describe what may have been included in this extra sequence to any degree?
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
Scott, Kirk asks if Commodore Stone tried to ask Jame to convince Kirk to take the easy way out. She says she was there because she wanted to be, not at Stone's urging. Kirk confides to Jame that the bridge of the Enterprise is his life and he's nothing if he loses the Enterprise. He admits he's afraid. So Jame then pleads him to take a year off, don't go through the trial. Maybe they will forgot. But he says they never forget. You will always have a slight bit of doubt in your mind if I did kill your father. So I have to fight. So he goes through the scene and becomes more convinced he has to fight. Roddenberry felt Kirk would only confide something like to McCoy or Spock. But not Jame.Edit: Gene Coon didn't know what to do, so he just removed the whole portion of that scene. It didn't really help explain anything more about Cogley's realization it seems. What did you think Lee?And then the way the filming went, there is a scene filmed where Jame is brought on board the Enterprise to convine Finney to give up and tell them where he sabotaged the engines. Because the show was long, they instead used a voice over to explain that part without the footage.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
I knew they all hated Court Martial and I knew about the late scene with Jame on the Enterprise, but I hadn't known about the earlier script edits or the Cogley and Cogley idea before reading Cushman's book. It's interesting stuff to be sure, and it goes to illustrate Bob Justman's claim that generally the worse shows require more effort than the best shows. I don't think of Court Martial as the total failure that the staff and Cushman label it, but I do think it is one of the episodes most damaged by the necessities of the schedule. All of the problems I have with the episode are in the script, and I don't feel the premise was bad from its inception; it just needed a little more time and thought before shooting it, and as the book makes clear to a degree I never understood before, they simply had no time left at that point. I also wonder if some of the difficulties they had shooting the episode contributed emotionally to the sense that it was worse than it was. The planned scene in which Jame comes back to Kirk and he confides in her wouldn't really, as I understand it, solve the problem remaining in the episode. If Finney hasn't somehow gotten word to her that he is alive, then why does she change her mind? And if she just changes her mind out of fairness or affection for Kirk, then why would Cogley care? Leaving the scene intact wouldn't have fixed anything and I agree that it would have been a strange moment for Kirk, so it makes sense to me that Coon removed it. The other surprising aspect I learned was the original premise that implied that 23rd (or whichever) century justice was heavily computerized and that cases were primarily dependent on computer evidence, and in this case the computer had a personality and chose to lie to harm Kirk. With that kind of dystopian future image and the idea of sentient machines being allowed to have power over people, I'm not surprised that Roddenberry had those elements changed. What did surprise me was that Coon liked the sentient computer hating Kirk idea throughout the draft process. That's the kind of idea that strikes me as a good premise for a self-contained science fiction movie or anthology episode, but a very problematic story within the series format of Star Trek.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
Lee, yes, that extra bit of dialogue between Kirk and Jame really didn't add much.Given it was the mid 1960's I can see people still thinking that a computer could become sentient or have a personality in the future. But it is surprising to think they considered the idea of the computer falsifying the facts to nail Kirk because it didn't like him! At least the way the computer got a personality from Signet made sense !I am amazed by De Lugo's account of the his experience filming his scene. Rather frank. And Hagan Beggs account about how cool it was on the bridge set. That was so realistic to him given the time period there wasn't too many sets like that. It's too bad the episode was so rushed in the writing and filming of the episode.
 

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson,Thanks so much for providing the additional information on the Kirk / Jame dialogue.

"And then the way the filming went, there is a scene filmed where Jame is brought on board the Enterprise to convine Finney to give up and tell them where he sabotaged the engines."I do wish this (the visual footage) had been left in the final version.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
You are welcome Scott! I hope you don't mind me talking about the book so much. I'm spoiling it for you. I'm trying to be general so as not to give it all away.Yes, it's a shame as Lee mentioned a few posts ago the deleted footage does not appear on the blu ray or DVD sets.
 

Ockeghem

Ockeghem
Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
9,417
Real Name
Scott D. Atwell
Nelson,There isn't any chance of spoiling anything for me, so no worries there. Since there will be a volume two, the possibility for a volume three is promising.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
Wow. Turns out I only hate myself. The comet in Balance of Terror. Icarus Four? Five? Some Icarus number. (Not a surname, by the way. A reference to the Greek myth of the boy who flew too close to the sun, appropriately enough.) Great question!
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
Ah, thanks for the clarity regarding Icarus. I forgot about that, I kept thinking that name is very familiar. Glad you liked the question! Kirknsaid it so fast, "Comet Icarus 4...", it was hard to hear.The next question goes to Lee! Nice job Scott and the heavy lifting to Lee.
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
I wanted to follow up on the last question, last night I was tired and forgot to do a wrap-up.Scott had found one instance of objects in space I missed, the asteroid belt from Mudd's Women that caused the Enterprise to burn its crystals by overextending it's shields to protect Mudd's ship. Mudd's Women.Lee found the rest, plus the Coalsack that I missed! The Immunity Syndrome.There was the rogue comet with undetected radiation that caused the crew to age. The Deadly Years.Then the comet Icarus 4 that the Romulans were going to hide in, but realized the Enterprise guessed their move and quickly turned to avoid detection. Balance of Terror.Muraski 314 scrambled the Enterprise sensors and sucked the Galileo into the quasar to Taurus 2. The Galileo Seven.A black star caught the Enterprise in its gravity well but she escaped and travelled through time to 1960's Earth by the light speed break away maneuver. Tomorrow is Yesterday.The trinary sun of Triskelion is the home of the Providers who captures Kirk and crew for mortal combat. Gamesters of TriskelionSpock damages the warp engines in a vain attempt to destroy an asteroid that is about to smash a planet that Kirk has lost his memory on in Paradise Syndrome.Two super Novas threatens the Enterprise, Beta Niobe in All Our Yesterday's and the star Minara orbits in The Empath. Solar flares from the sun at Minara also threatens the Enterprise. An Ion Storm causes troubles for the Enterprise a few times, Court Martial and Mirror Mirror where the crew is swept to a savage parallel universe. Space is full of danger!
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
William Shatner once hoped to play Houdini on stage. In which episodes does Captain Kirk escape from a jail or cell or other physical confinement? (For the purposes of this question, let's say physical confinement somewhere smaller than a planet, since the situation in MANY episodes involves Kirk having to make his way off of a planet somehow.)
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
Watched Court Martial today, it's especially fun to watch after reading the chapter on this episode. Knowing that it was rushed through the writing and filming process, they sure did a decent job of getting an episode out. Knowing the issues the actors had, they turned out solid performances. There was so much not discussed in the book. Like the costume design, the suit Cogley wears and the previously discussed dress Jame wears. But in particular, the court room set. I was thinking that even in the 23rd Century, the panel that made up the officers at Kirk's trial were sitting on a bench that at times appears to be towering over everyone! while I think the design of the court is terrific, I never wondered until today would it have worked had they found an existing courtroom set with all the wood panels and redressed it with some high tech gear and less wood. Nevermind! I think it was better the way it is. And as Roddenberry was thinking, it was cool to see other Federation facilities on a Starbase. They managed to pull off a pretty good range of sets, Stones and then later Mendez office, the Starbase 11 Club, Kirk's apartment, then the courtroom. The ship's sets were all nicely used as well. Marc Daniels sure did a fine job of organizing everything and rushing the actors along.I'll reading about The Menagerie next, I already started! :)
 

Nelson Au

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 16, 1999
Messages
19,040
Cool question Lee! I just happen to post at the same time you did. There are so many instances! The question can involve situations when Kirk is with others, or when he's alone? He's a witch! All Our Yesterday's.
 

FanCollector

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
5,010
Real Name
Lee
There are witches! There ARE! Correct.The set redressings were clever in Court Martial, and the bar at least gave us a taste of actual Federation citizens living their regular lives, which we almost never see. As Scott has mentioned before, the tracked score for the episode is also among the best. And I've always felt that, in spite of the degree to which Court Martial revolves around Kirk (a point Allan Asherman made very eloquently), it's a wonderful showcase for the Spock character. We see him use razor sharp analysis and logic in the service of a totally emotional objective, which is so much of who the character was. And he gets to save the day, too.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,810
Messages
5,123,551
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top