S&V tests the Marantz SR7200 (2 Viewers)

[Paul_Psutka]

re: the most recent postings here.....
many of you have experienced the problems S&V magazine found, am I correct?
so did you buy a "pre-production" unit?? NO, you all bought "production" units that had problems. Therefore it was fair for S&V to publish the review, imo.

 

[Charles J P]

true, not only that, but some of the problems have spanned the whole product line, not just the 7200.
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[Merconium]

I agree. I have been an S&V subscriber for quite a while and I am not too pleased with their testing techniques.
In the PC world, the only reviews that are worth anything are those from places that are willing to tell a manufacturer where to go. (A great example is hardocp.com who exposed a pretty big number of problems with ATi's newest high powered videocard.) But I've never see an instance where something didn't work as advertised and the review didn't call up the support crew and find out wth was wrong.
Jeff Kowerchuk, the real problem that I've seen here (and I've read every post, except MikeKaz's mega-block-no-indent-post ) is that people who actually own off the line units are experiencing serious technical flaws. Earlier somebody mentioned that there isn't a manufacturer who hasn't had these types of problems--and I believe it. It is clear to me that the dealers mentioned are taking care of their customers, and that is a good sign. I'm not singling you out, but you put up the response, so I'm hoping you can speak to the following concerns.
I do take exception to the Marantz response. They are pretending like this was an accidental, one-time thing (mentioning preproduction, that the reviewer didn't contact them, etc.)
I think what bothers me most is that the fact that they use the brief as a sales letter ("record setting sales," "We know the product is strong enough to stand on its own merit," "outstanding performance," etc.)
I guess it'll still be a little while before I decide on a new receiver.

 

[Jeff D.]

They are pretending like this was an accidental, one-time thing (mentioning preproduction, that the reviewer didn't contact them, etc.)

This is ridiculous...it amazes me how people think. Lewis posts his first post, highlighting the review. Fine. People get upset. The reaction is obvious: we want to hear from Marantz. Now we have, and you people don't like it.
It was a PRE-PRODUCTION unit people - who does not understand that concept? Did S&V mention this tidbit in their review? NO. There is a HUGE difference between measuring a pre-production unit and measuring one that came off the line.
Further to that, why do you people put the onus on Marantz to contact S&V? If they don't hear from S&V - how can they know if there was a problem with the unit? The onus is on SOUND & VISION for not informing Marantz about the problem. Obviously you people are very upset that Marantz does not have telepathic powers.
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Norm Strong]

The "facts" are that Marantz sent S&V a poor example of one of their products. They shouldn't have done that. They will have to live with the consequences of that decision. How eager S&V was to review the receiver is not germane at all.
If you submit a bum instrument, you are going to get a bum review. It's as simple as that.
In my previous life, I was a design engineer. I was frequently asked to submit a review sample. Believe me, I didn't let that sucker out of my hands until I'd tested it to every spec--over the entire temperature and humidity range.
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Norm Strong ([email protected])

 

[Lewis Besze]

You are attacking the reputation of a well-respected company on a forum read by thousands of people. That is extremely childish and rude.

I got it, this is actualy funny huh?
I mean you can't be serious!

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"You Hungarians always disagree"

 

[GordonL]

quote: There are countless people happy with their product.[/quote]That may be true, but out of those people, how many don't know they have a problem unit? Most people don't have the knowledge/ability to test a product the way S&V tests it. Ignorance is bliss...
quote: It was a PRE-PRODUCTION unit people - who does not understand that concept? Did S&V mention this tidbit in their review? NO.[/quote]You are assuming that S&V knew that it was a pre-production unit. What evidence do you have of this?
quote: There is a HUGE difference between measuring a pre-production unit and measuring one that came off the line.[/quote]I believe S&V has a policy of not doing "performance" reviews of products pre-production units for this very reason. What purpose would it serve to do so? At most, they would have done a "feature" review. IMO, there is nothing special or innovative about the SR-7200 that would cause S&V to want to do an early review of a pre-production model. The fact that they did a "performance" review indicates that they assumed it was a production unit. I'm sure S&V will print a retraction if it is in fact a pre-production unit. I applaud S&V for having the balls to publish a less than glowing review. I do agree however, that they should have solicited a response from Marantz before publishing their findings.
[Edited last by GordonL on November 07, 2001 at 09:37 AM]

 

[Merconium]

Jeff K,
Avoid saying things like "you people." It is fairly condescending.
If you read my post, I never assumed that Marantz had be telepathic. I did put the ownership of contact upon S&V--they should have minimally called the support team to find out why their receiver sucked.
It is true that the squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease--only the people with problems complain. But I think that considering the size of this community, and that it is probably an accurate sampling of the types of consumers who would buy a product from Marantz, the number of people who have had problems compared to the number who haven't is an accurate depiction of the scale of the issue.
There were and are people who are enjoying their 7200s with no issue whatsoever. They have posted to that effect. Some, however, believed there were no problems until they began further testing. We honestly have no idea what the numbers look like as far as how many people are or are not experiencing these or other issues. To assume either way would be a flaw in logic.
I do, however, side with the consumer on this one. Some have stated that 'for that kind of money, it'd better be right,' while others have argued that we are asking too much as consumers. I am in the former, not the latter camp. I understand (as I said before) that all brands have QC issues. I have a ton of Sony gear, and have never had a problem, while others can't get a decent Trinitron from them. I'm not calling Marantz crap--not at all--but I do want to see the issue fixed, one way or another.
Marantz made the decision to ship the preproduction model. Plain and simple. Many companies run on a "it's done when it's done" motto. They refuse to ship anything until it is right. What, S&V was gonna give them a nasty writeup--"They refused to send us a preproduction model because it wasn't up to their QC standards. Whatever you buy this year, don't buy Marantz." I doubt it. I think that there is a great deal of respect for companies that get it right, and don't sell until they do.
QC can make or break a company. Look how the Big3 fell apart in the 80s because the Japanese were selling cars of better build quality.
I see where you are coming from, and I agree--S&V screwed up. But so did Marantz. They are the ones trying to turn a profit; they have to get it right.
[Edited last by Jeff Appelhans on November 06, 2001 at 03:01 PM]

 

[Darell_Land]

I think there is so much comming out right now that first out wins. There is a lot of presure to be the first I have the 5200 (love it no complaints...remote of course) and right now in the market I would have to spend almost double to get the featurs it offers.Iam a Fan of Yamaha but the line of 520 620 dosn`t offer nothing, the Marantz is way above them in features. Yamaha has always been in front and I didnt buy there new stuff because I can get more from some else. So do we balme Marantz for rushing a product to the market, Hungry consumers who shout more. The Home Theater market is a growing fast and I think you will see lots of whoops to come.

 

[Jeff D.]

It's time to start over.

Marantz made the decision to ship the preproduction model.

Marantz is not the first company to do this. I've read many reviews which state that the unit reviewed was a pre-production model. Usually, the pre-production model is fairly representative of the final product. Often a few bugs are noted, but always with the consideration that this is a pre-production model on test.
If you're a company with a product to sell, and a major trade magazine is ready to do a review on it NOW - not later, of course you're gonna do your best to accomodate them. In this case, things went wrong. The point, once again, is that they were not given a chance for rebuttal.
Finally, I will state my case once more:
I am not trying to side with Marantz here, I am trying to be fair. We have NOT heard the whole story here. It is very possible that the entire 7200 line will be flawed. If so, that is a huge disappointment, but it must be accepted. But we don't know that yet. We have one review of one (PREPRODUCTION) unit. Doesn't mean they are all bad. A few people have reported problems, but no doubt this is a small percentage compared to those who haven't had any problems.
As a side note: one person went through five or six units, all having a problem. I went through seven and none had a problem. They ain't all bad.
Lastly, in a more general sense, I wish people would empower themselves and trust their own judgments. Stop letting people dictate to you what is and isn't good. If you don't like the 7200, or find it has flaws - then that is your call. But if you like the unit, go for it! Listen and trust your own ears. You'll be more the wiser for it.
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Merconium]

Jeff,
You make some fine points. I agree that we don't have the whole picture yet--certainly not enough for me not to keep the 7200 in my demo list this Christmas.
I don't think that these problem should be glossed over because of that fact. You feel your way, but I am grateful because I now know what to look for in a good and a bad unit.
Simply put, reviews do mean something to people with lives. I'm not willing to invest countless hours demoing every possible iteration of every receiver, simply to find a diamond in the rough. I can sit on the pot, read the trade mags, (consider what I read here,) and come up with a list of 5 in my head, and demo them in a day.
I, like you, don't advocate an all out boycott of Marantz simply because of one bad review. But a discussion with this many posts deserves some recognition. I *never* post unless I really feel like my opinion isn't represented. I know that may seem odd, but contrary to your insinuation I do have a life and I simply can't argue every issue on every board. Life is too short for that type of time-waste.
I'm glad you found some without problems. I'm sure that people would be very willing to buy them from your store because you have tested them out.
Regards--

 

[MatthewJ S]

anyone who thinks that marantz sent in an "untested" pre-production unit ,ought to have their head examined!
But for the sake of argument, If they did then they'd not only be the first mfgr to do so, but they would be STUPID!
SO, THEY either made a bad product and sent it out without testing it (stupid and poor quality)
or they played with one ,messed it up and sent it out (just incompetent)
What better hi-fi mags do is go and grab a unit that has a few hours on it from the local retailer

 

[Jeff D.]

Jeff:

I know that may seem odd, but contrary to your insinuation I do have a life and I simply can't argue every issue on every board.

That comment was only directed at any people who seem to think that Marantz is totally to blame and that S&V is the only party that can be trusted. Neither party can be trusted any more than the other.
People who need to get a life are those who never trust their own ears and will only buy equipment if it has good "street cred" - those people usually spend way too much time reading and not enough time listening and when they do listen, they often spend it with their amp maxed and their ear against the tweeter listening for hiss. Those are the people who are completely missing out on what the hobby has to offer.
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Lewis Besze]

quote: It's quite annoying that you keep hiding behind statements like this and those stupid emoticons.[/quote]
Really?
Have you read you posts lately?
quote: The only reason I am pressing this point is you appear to have some sort of agenda, yet we still do not know what it is.[/quote]
It's simple Jeff,there is none!!!!!!!!!!!!
But if you think there is one then I can't help you,you gotta figure it out your self,because it's your CREATION.quote: You have STILL not admitted that the problem here could just as easily be with S&V as with Marantz. No matter what evidence or suggestions are given, you still find a way to side with Marantz.[/quote]
You mean S&V?
Then let me quote myself from the previous page,just below your post.quote: Yes I agree that S&V should have contacted Marantz upon it's rather unusual findings,however that doesn't clear Marantz from checking the unit before sending it out.I think that both parties at fault,and they should work togheter to smooth things out,instead of pointing fingers[/quote]
I think speaks for itself.
Further more!quote: First Marantz should write an open letter to S&V[which should be published in the magazine]and demand an explanation why they were not informed,about the "unusual findings" about the 7200,before the review was published,then the ball would be in their court,and better have a good "come back"[which they won't][/quote]
I think it shows that I'm not so sided S&V,as I said before,they should work togheter on this.
As you know there isn't anything new from S&V,so the so called "fact" that they new that this was a preproduction model,or that "they were eager to test it",is remains to be validated.
Not because I assume Marantz to be a liar,no!
I just want to hear both sides,I think that's only fair!
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"You Hungarians always disagree"
[Edited last by Lewis Besze on November 07, 2001 at 08:39 PM]

 

[Jeff D.]

anyone who thinks that marantz sent in an "untested" pre-production unit ,ought to have their head examined!
But for the sake of argument, If they did then they'd not only be the first mfgr to do so, but they would be STUPID!

First off - THEY DID. Read the freakin' response already. Why do you assume they must be lying?
Second - THEY ARE NOT THE FIRST. I have read many reviews that indicate the model being tested was pre-production. This usually tempers the review somewhat, especially if there are problems (ie. something to the effect of - "the manufacturer assures us that actual production models will have this problem remedied" or some such disclaimer).
I do agree that the idea of sending out pre-production units is dubious, but I would expect a bit more from the magazine doing the review.
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Charles J P]

Man, I love how the poeple arguing here have all of the sudden completely forgot that it doesnt matter if it was a pre-production unit sent to S&V or not. People are having real-life problems with production units. I myself tested three units before a I gave in and traded up to a Yamaha. The Yamaha is 100% noise free on all the tests I ran with the Marantz where there shouldnt be noise. For example, the Marantz had noise in the surrounds during stereo mode. The Yamaha does not. In tests where you would expect the unit to have some noise (diminishing recording level tests) the Yammie had a very noticible amount less noise.
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[Jeff D.]

Quote:

I tested a total of seven units with no problems whatsoever, noise or otherwise.
Just because some people are having problems does not mean the whole line is bad.
Also, whoop-di-doo as to whether the Yamaha makes noise or not. Doesn't mean its a better sounding product. I know many people will prefer the sound of the Marantz over the Yamaha any day. I'm not saying that to trash Yamaha - exchange that name for any other. The point is, there's more to the equation than the noise level of the product.
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Spencer J]

I've gotta agree with you on that one, Jeff. I just can't stand listening to quiet passages on my CDs without a little background sizzle.
Seriously, dude. Get off the Marantz horse before it takes you over the cliff.

 

[Jeff D.]

Seriously, dude. Get off the Marantz horse before it takes you over the cliff.

Take the time to read all the information before making comments like this. I am not on Marantz's side, nor am I on S&V's side. I am simply asking for some people to take a more even-handed approach. If there is indeed a big problem with this line, Marantz is at fault and they should remedy it. I NEVER denied this.
Wouldn't it be nice if people took the time to read and think...
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Jeff
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"They're coming to get you Barbara..."

 

[Norm Strong]

Pre-production instruments are generally better than ordinary production runs. They've received more loving care all along the way.
It's prototype instruments you have to watch out for.
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Norm Strong ([email protected])