Rio Bravo versus El Dorado (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

I always had a hard time watching El Dorado, having seen Rio Bravo first. I keep thinking "what a sub-par Rio Bravo rip-off" (yes, I know it's the same director). However, this thread has convinced me that I need to watch El Dorado one more time.

El Dorado is a fine film, but final resolution of the film is not as satisfying to me as Rio Bravo. Also, after watching Rio Bravo again, it reminded me that this was one of Ward Bond's final films.

 

[John Hermes]

El Dorado is a fine film, but final resolution of the film is not as satisfying to me as Rio Bravo. Also, after watching Rio Bravo again, it reminded me that this was one of Ward Bond's final films.

Different people like stuff differently. I feel the same as you, that they are both fine films, except my favorite of the two is reversed. I'm just glad John Wayne gave us so many great films to enjoy and discuss.

 

[WadeM]

El Dorado is a fine film, but final resolution of the film is not as satisfying to me as Rio Bravo. Also, after watching Rio Bravo again, it reminded me that this was one of Ward Bond's final films.

Ward Bond is such a familiar figure in so many classic films. I never considered that it was one of his last roles. Thanks for the information.


It's been awhile since I last watched Rio Bravo, so I'll want to watch it again soon, but this time I'll reach for El Dorado instead to scratch this new itch that this thread caused me.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Different people like stuff differently. I feel the same as you, that they are both fine films, except my favorite of the two is reversed. I'm just glad John Wayne gave us so many great films to enjoy and discuss.

Film is like any other piece of artwork, it's very subjective when it comes to personal evaluation/appreciation of it.

 

[Vic Pardo]

Ward Bond is such a familiar figure in so many classic films. I never considered that it was one of his last roles. Thanks for the information.

RIO BRAVO was Bond's last feature film, but he made quite a number of "Wagon Train" episodes afterwards and those episodes constituted his final work.

 

[Patrick Mason]

I watched El Dorado again, and certainly didn't regret it. It's a fun, fast movie. It definitely moves at a much quicker pace than Rio Bravo, but at the expense that it feels like a bit of a generic knock off brand of the original. Comparatively, I think it's missing the quirky and unique qualities that make Rio Bravo such a standout.


The romance is (somewhat thankfully, at Wayne's age) barely there, whereas Chance's scenes with Feathers are Rio Bravo's strongest comic and emotional highlights. And I feel so much more invested in Dude's story, coming into the tale at his low point and watching him pulling himself back up throughout the movie. Having Mitchum's character be forced into sobriety, and much later in the movie, removes a lot of the reason to really root for the character. The more languid pace actually leaves room for a lot of magic, such as allowing our doomed heroes a couple of songs to pass the time in what may be either movie's most charming scene.


Where Rio Bravo is often laugh out loud funny (thanks to Stumpy, or to Feathers' talent for making Chance uniquely uncomfortable,) El Dorado's stabs at comedy feel more juvenile (magic hangover elixers!) or worse (did we learn nothing from Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?)


Both are a fun night at the movies, but I think Hawks got this one right on the first go.

 

[Mike Boone]

Patrick, sure agree with you about El Dorado's faster pacing. So I think that for most viewers today, who are accustomed to movies that move at such a ridiculous pace, that little time is taken to develop much of anything, El Dorado is the choice that is likely to have a lot more appeal.


And it's likely that I missed someone else, who already made the point, that for people who saw El Dorado first, and didn't then know it was a reworking of Rio Bravo, El Dorado could seem fresh enough, and certainly entertaining enough, to easily win out as their preferred choice.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Patrick, sure agree with you about El Dorado's faster pacing. So I think that for most viewers today, who are accustomed to movies that move at such a ridiculous pace, that little time is taken to develop much of anything, El Dorado is the choice that is likely to have a lot more appeal.


And it's likely that I missed someone else, who already made the point, that for people who saw El Dorado first, and didn't then know it was a reworking of Rio Bravo, El Dorado could seem fresh enough, and certainly entertaining enough, to easily win out as their preferred choice.

Faster pace doesn't necessarily mean a better film.

 

[Mike Boone]

Faster pace doesn't necessarily mean a better film.

Obviously! Bridge on the River Kwai, as one example, certainly moves at a much slower pace (too slow, I'm afraid, for most of today's young viewers) than Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, or 48 Hrs, but is also a richer, better film (IMO) than those other 3 movies, even as entertaining as they are.


And I love Raiders of the Lost Ark as one of the best, most clever, most entertaining, action/adventure films ever made. But if it were a choice between Raiders and Witness, as a Harrison Ford film to have on that proverbial desert island, Witness, for me, would win hands down. Where Raiders is a wild rollercoaster ride, Witness is a gradually building symphony, that works toward a strong climax, but with some quiet moments, along the way, that manage to grab the viewer as strongly as any of the tense action scenes in Raiders.


A terrific scene in Witness that is played out with no dialog, is when Harrison Ford's detective character sits talking on the phone in the squad room, and sees the young boy, who's across the room, staring through the glass of a case that contains pictures of some detectives whose work had won them awards. Ford begins to realize that the child's expression indicates he may recognize a fellow detective as one of the killers. So Ford slowly gets up, obviously not wanting to draw attention in the crowded

squad room, and calmly walks over to the boy and gently pushes the child's forefinger down and away from the glass, since the boy, moments before, had begun pointing to a picture of a respected officer. This whole brilliant scene is played, not only without any dialog, but with none of the sound of that room, but instead, the film's soundtrack is providing a very effective passage of Maurice Jarre's score. Just a great example of riveting film making, that I'm sure my meager description does not do justice to, in trying to convey how vividly dramatic that scene really is.


I saw Witness 3 times in movie theaters, and at each screening, the crowd of moviegoers was moved to an absolute, hushed silence, during a number of sections throughout the film. What a crime that a glorified travelogue like Out of Africa won the Best Picture Oscar over a much more powerful film like Witness. I really appreciate Meryl Streep, and neither actress got an Oscar for her role, but Kelly McGillis taking the female lead role in Witness, was every bit as good, and probably better, than Ms Streep was in Out of Africa. And, it's also quite fitting that Ford's performance in Witness is the only role for which he's been nominated for an Oscar, so far. He was terrific as John Book. Of course, I realize that the Oscars are very political, and more a popularity contest among cronies, than anything else. But often, things work out with the Academy actually recognizing genuine quality.

 

[Vic Pardo]

Patrick, sure agree with you about El Dorado's faster pacing. So I think that for most viewers today, who are accustomed to movies that move at such a ridiculous pace, that little time is taken to develop much of anything, El Dorado is the choice that is likely to have a lot more appeal.


And it's likely that I missed someone else, who already made the point, that for people who saw El Dorado first, and didn't then know it was a reworking of Rio Bravo, El Dorado could seem fresh enough, and certainly entertaining enough, to easily win out as their preferred choice.

EL DORADO is a film you can drop in on in the middle of a channel surf and stick with it from then on, no matter what point you tuned in on. RIO BRAVO is a little more demanding. To truly get the full value of it, you have to start at the beginning and let it work slowly on you as it develops the relationships and allows them to play out. EL DORADO is a solid, well-crafted, entertaining western. RIO BRAVO is a work of art.


Read Hawks' comments on both films.

 

[Robert Crawford]

EL DORADO is a film you can drop in on in the middle of a channel surf and stick with it from then on, no matter what point you tuned in on. RIO BRAVO is a little more demanding. To truly get the full value of it, you have to start at the beginning and let it work slowly on you as it develops the relationships and allows them to play out. EL DORADO is a solid, well-crafted, entertaining western. RIO BRAVO is a work of art.


Read Hawks' comments on both films.

I don't think that's true!

 

[Carcosa]

I don't think that's true!

Me either...I think either film works the same in that respect. RIO BRAVO doesn't get the cable-play that EL DORADO does, so I would quite possibly be equally as glued to my set if I come across it playing. I just don't run into it all that often. Having films that are that inherently magical is the kind of problem I like.


Received my LaLa Land soundtrack for RIO BRAVO earlier in the week and it made the long wait for it (years!) all worth while. It's wonderful.

 

[WadeM]

I watched El Dorado again, and certainly didn't regret it. It's a fun, fast movie. It definitely moves at a much quicker pace than Rio Bravo, but at the expense that it feels like a bit of a generic knock off brand of the original. Comparatively, I think it's missing the quirky and unique qualities that make Rio Bravo such a standout.


The romance is (somewhat thankfully, at Wayne's age) barely there, whereas Chance's scenes with Feathers are Rio Bravo's strongest comic and emotional highlights. And I feel so much more invested in Dude's story, coming into the tale at his low point and watching him pulling himself back up throughout the movie. Having Mitchum's character be forced into sobriety, and much later in the movie, removes a lot of the reason to really root for the character. The more languid pace actually leaves room for a lot of magic, such as allowing our doomed heroes a couple of songs to pass the time in what may be either movie's most charming scene.


Where Rio Bravo is often laugh out loud funny (thanks to Stumpy, or to Feathers' talent for making Chance uniquely uncomfortable,) El Dorado's stabs at comedy feel more juvenile (magic hangover elixers!) or worse (did we learn nothing from Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?)


Both are a fun night at the movies, but I think Hawks got this one right on the first go.

I recently re-watched El Dorado for the first time in I'd guess 20 years, since I was inspired by this thread. I'm glad that I did. It was much better than I remembered--funny, suspenseful and an overall good time. The huge advantage that it has over Rio Bravo is the great Robert Mitchum's presence. However, Rio Bravo wins on almost every other point--it's a work of art. I largely agree with Patrick's assessment above, although I did laugh out loud during El Dorado more than a few times. But, wow, the James Caan chinese scene was downright embarrassing--and unbelievable at best. At least nothing in Rio Bravo embarrasses me.


Anyway, El Dorado was one of only 3 latter day John Wayne films that I didn't own and now I'm happy to have changed that.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

This thread inspired me to revisit El Dorado, as well, as I had not watched the film in many years. The BD was rather inexpensive, so I picked up a copy and watched it on Monday night. Overall, the film held up better for me than I remembered, but James Caan as Mississippi just does not work for me. The acting seemed below the caliber from his later films, and his oriental impression just made me cringe. On the positive side, though, for some reason Charlene Holt reminds me of Maureen O'Hara in this film. Wayne and Mitchum are both terrific.


I'm holding off another viewing of Rio Bravo until the new BD gets released in June. However, I tend to agree with Robert Crawford's assessment and prefer it over El Dorado.

 

[verneaux]

Rio Bravo has better performances for me. Wayne is Wayne in both movies but his scenes with Angie Dickenson push him into an area of comic frustration that has no counterpart in El Dorado. Mitchum is good but the part doesn't demand very much of him. Dean Martin, on the other hand, turns in probably a career-high performance and is going to new places. Caan is marginally better than Nelson. Brennan is easily superior to Hunnicut. Hunicut's character doesn't really seem to have a relationship with Wayne or Mitchum... kind of like Hank Mann's characters in the John Ford films. Charlene Holt was Howard Hawks's girlfriend - she is no match for Angie Dickenson.

 

[Mike Boone]

Rio Bravo has better performances for me. Wayne is Wayne in both movies but his scenes with Angie Dickenson push him into an area of comic frustration that has no counterpart in El Dorado. Mitchum is good but the part doesn't demand very much of him. Dean Martin, on the other hand, turns in probably a career-high performance and is going to new places. Caan is marginally better than Nelson. Brennan is easily superior to Hunnicut. Hunicut's character doesn't really seem to have a relationship with Wayne or Mitchum... kind of like Hank Mann's characters in the John Ford films. Charlene Holt was Howard Hawks's girlfriend - she is no match for Angie Dickenson.

Agree with about everything you've said, except, I wouldn't say Caan is marginally better than Nelson, but rather, a lot better. Whenever he appears in Rio Bravo, I can't lose the thought that Ricky Nelson's teen idol status, with it's ability to pull in young moviegoers, was the sole reason he was chosen to play this supposedly tough gunslinger. That had to have been one of Hollywood's greatest feats of miscasting. If today, Justin Bieber were cast to play a gang banger in South Boston, I wonder if that character could end up being much less believable than that of the Colorado character.


But I would sure have to echo the sentiments of those who have indicated that James Caan's lame Chinese bit, sure should have hit the cutting room floor. One wonders how such a seasoned pro like Howard Hawks, even allowed such a tacky scene to be shot. The only theory that's sprung to my mind is, maybe the night before that ill advised scene was filmed, Mr Hawks had made another ill advised move, in trying to drink Wayne and Mitchum under the table.

 

[Carcosa]

But I would sure have to echo the sentiments of those who have indicated that James Caan's lame Chinese bit, sure should have hit the cutting room floor. One wonders how such a seasoned pro like Howard Hawks, even allowed such a tacky scene to be shot.

Different times. El Dorado was made nearly 50 years ago, as incredible as it seems. In today's climate the scene wouldn't fly. But at the time it didn't raise an eyebrow. I never gave it that much thought until recent years.


But then again, I grew up on Don Rickles and Dean Martin roasts, which were as politically incorrect as it gets.

 

[Mike Boone]

Different times. El Dorado was made nearly 50 years ago, as incredible as it seems. In today's climate the scene wouldn't fly. But at the time it didn't raise an eyebrow. I never gave it that much thought until recent years.


But then again, I grew up on Don Rickles and Dean Martin roasts, which were as politically incorrect as it gets.

I used to get such a charge out of Don Rickles. If memory serves, Rickles was sometimes referred to by the somewhat sarcastic title of Mr Warmth.


One of the greatest slams I ever heard, came from the mouth of Don Rickles, when he said: "You don't have to feel bad, just because your sister is a scuba diver for Roto Rooter."

 

[Robert Crawford]

Agree with about everything you've said, except, I wouldn't say Caan is marginally better than Nelson, but rather, a lot better. Whenever he appears in Rio Bravo, I can't lose the thought that Ricky Nelson's teen idol status, with it's ability to pull in young moviegoers, was the sole reason he was chosen to play this supposedly tough gunslinger. That had to have been one of Hollywood's greatest feats of miscasting. If today, Justin Bieber were cast to play a gang banger in South Boston, I wonder if that character could end up being much less believable than that of the Colorado character.


But I would sure have to echo the sentiments of those who have indicated that James Caan's lame Chinese bit, sure should have hit the cutting room floor. One wonders how such a seasoned pro like Howard Hawks, even allowed such a tacky scene to be shot. The only theory that's sprung to my mind is, maybe the night before that ill advised scene was filmed, Mr Hawks had made another ill advised move, in trying to drink Wayne and Mitchum under the table.

I don't necessarily agree that Caan in this particular movie (El Dorado) was a lot better than Nelson in Rio Bravo.

 

[jim_falconer]

Caan is marginally better than Nelson.

You can't be serious. James Caan has a entertaining presence in just about every scene he's in, while Ricky Nelson is no more than window dressing in Rio Bravo. And as for all here who are offended at James Caan's Chinese scene, I say get a grip. He was poking fun a one culture's type cast...many cultures have been poked fun at thru the years. The Irish drinking, the English stuffiness, the Swedish buxom blondes, the Russians non-feeling toward human rights. We have poked fun at all these stereo types over the years.

El Dorado outshines Rio Bravo from beginning to end. Not to say I don't enjoy Rio Bravo, but the 1966 film is such a more pleasant ride than its 1959 counterpart.