Pioneer DV-45A does not have bass management (1 Viewer)

[Tony Genovese]

Anyway I did the test again, this time using the Chesky Ultimate DVD using the DVD-A 4.0 music. I did not get a Subwoofer signal.

Thanks, Ron. I thought I might have been cracking up
What's so weird about all of this is that the S&V review of the 45A claims it has "full bass management". Evidently the reviewer didn't actually test this claim, but took the manufacturer's claim on faith.

 

[Tony Genovese]

but I would think they may have better equipment to test than us.

Better than my ears ? Don't think so.

 

[Mike Sloan]

Ok spent all day walking the same path all of you have already completed. My findings:

(1)The decoder's in "my" DV45A do not add in the 10dB boost for the LFE...so you are stuck with low LFE that cannot be adjusted within the unit. The 6dB trim is for "overall" subwoofer output.

(2)Subwoofer output (not LFE) seems to be depressed as well.

(3)Internal crossover appears to be around 120Hz and not 100Hz....or the Crossover slope is so gentle as to be worthless.

(4)With my particular setup (fronts to LARGE...everything else SMALL and Sub on) SACD only sends LFE to subwoofer..at an extremely low level and at frequencies as high as 120Hz??? really weired.

(5) DVD Audio (with above setup) sends a "blended" LFE+ Freq below crossover....at a low level.

(6) Had to boost the subwoofer trim on the Denon from -8 to +5 (13Db) to get anywhere near reference calibration and we still are not able to bring the LFE up...only overall sub output!

I think the bass management on this unit is worthless and the ONLY answer is to bypass it and send everything through the ICBM....man am I pissed...but it was still fun trying...pissed and happy...that's strange tooooo! I will say that I heard a definite improvement in sound quality (less bass) when listening to both DVD-A and SACD...and it was not subtle...cool!

 

[Mike Sloan]

Customer support at Pioneer is a dead end. Have already received numerous E-mails to veeeery specific questions I asked...and it is akin to discussing this subject with my wife...oops I mean my children. Don't go there!

 

[Ron Newsome]

Mike, did you use the test tones from the 45A to adjust your channel levels? When I used the 47Ais' test tone the end result was basically thin so-so bass. When I used the test tones from a test disc, such as Chesky, VE, Avia, I got much much better results.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Anthony- I know that is exactly how I tested it: all small, sub on. 4.0 DVD-A disc. Nothing was crossed over to the sub from the mains. Like I said, I know I did it right, because it did work right for SACD. I also tried DVD-V, and it worked there too. Just not for DVD-A. Who knows, maybe you got a newer firmware unit. Or, maybe it really is a bug in the player with 4.0 discs (the Ultimate Chesky disc too). Obviously mattered for Tony, because he's getting rid of the 45a because of it. For me, I use the analog crossover in the Outlaw 950 anyway.

Oh, one more question (maybe I missed this above), what pre pro/receiver do you have your player hooked up to? And, did you try all large, sub on, to make sure it is a 2.0 disc, and check for *no* output to the sub?

Oh yeah, it doesn't take "better equipment" to test for it, obviously. But mags that simply take Pioneer's word for it, and don't actually test it themselves are the problem...

 

[Brian L]

When I used the 47Ais' test tone the end result was basically thin so-so bass. When I used the test tones from a test disc, such as Chesky, VE, Avia, I got much much better results.

One of the e-mails I got from Pioneer on my 45A said that there was no problem with Low LFE/Sub output, but that the test tones for the Sub were not correct. There point was that if I calibrated with an external disc, I would not have the problem. They said this to me in very broken English, but I think that is what they were saying.

While I have no doubt that their test tones are in fact FUBAR (FTR, they sound way to high in pitch to use to balance a sub), I had NEVER used them...all calibration was done via AVIA or Ultimate DVD.

Note to Kevin: How long did it take to get your Chesky disc? They notified me it was shipping on 1/2, and here it is the end of January and NADA. Have not gotten my Amex bill yet, so hopefully they have not charged me. Send two e-mails, and got no reply......not very happy with their customer service thus far.

BGL

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Brian- Maybe 2 weeks or so. I ordered/got mine maybe Oct/Nov 2002. (Maybe before everyone figured out how useful this discs is! )
I also found that the sub test tone on the 47ai is useless. Have to use Avia (for DD/DTS) or the Chesky disc (DVD-A/SACD). Also, when I used Avia, it did give me the wrong level for DVD-A and SACD because of the 10 dB LFE boost.

 

[Anthony_K]

I'm not debating whether people experienced what they are reporting. However, some people are representing that the new Pioneer players do not perform any bass management for DVD-A and I have found an example where the 47ai is performing bass management. Thus far only one other person has reported testing a 2.0 DVD-A track and that person represented that low frequencies were diverted to the sub. Unfortunately, it is not possible for me to test the 5.1 DVD-A tracks because due to the presence of the LFE channel bass will be present in the subwoofer - so it would be difficult to determine if the bass was redirected from the other speakers. I also do not own any 4.0 discs.

You can argue that the bass management is not flexible - high fixed crossover point, fixed slopes, etc. Although, I do not think that a player exists that provides flexible bass management for DVD-A (at this point you are lucky to get any bass management). Also, the LFE channel is 10db too low, but that is a common problem amongst many DVD-A players and can be compensated for with the multichannel input channel level adjustments available in most receivers/preamps. I'm not so certain you can make a blanket statement that it does not perform any bass management for DVD-A. It could very well be a bug for certain formats. Thus far the only examples where people have reported that it does not work are for 4.0 and 5.0 discs. That is definitely a problem, but is it a bug for multichannel recordings without an LFE channel or due to the player not having bass management for DVD-A regardless of the discs format?

My preamp/processor is the Integra Research RDC-7. Yes, I did verify that it was a 2.0 track. With the front speakers set to large and the sub on, there is no bass from the subwoofer. Some DVD-A titles (including at least one of the ones I tested) have a higher resolution stereo track (2 channels at 192khz vs. 6 channels at 96khz).

Bass management is a tricky subject and I think some people may be surprised at how often it is implemented incorrectly in your processor for Dolby Digital and DTS. I purchased a B&K REF 30 when it was first released. It had passed THX certification, yet when I tested the bass management with low frequency sweeps, it did not redirect the bass from the rear speakers, it just tossed it away (I Believe that it worked for other speakers, just not for the rears). This problem was subsequently fixed. But I have read other stories where bass was tossed away, not redirected.

I don't think it is fair to state Sound and Vision accepted the manufacturers claim. Basically, you are asserting that they fabricated test results. It is possible, but at this point an unfair statement.

 

[Mike Sloan]

Please Advise:frowning:ICBM Owners)
Pertaining to DVD-A and SACD...what will the DV45A send to the sub if all speakers are set to LARGE? There is nothing to redirect...so will it only send the LFE? I ask this question because in order to use the ICBM you would set everything to large and select subwoofer on in the 45A so as to bypass the majority of its bass management. If, by chance, the 45A turns off it's subwoofer output with all speakers set to large...where would the ICBM get the LFE signal. Is there anyone currently using the ICBM with the 45A?

 

[Tony Genovese]

Thus far only one other person has reported testing a 2.0 DVD-A track and that person represented that low frequencies were diverted to the sub.

Well, not quite. Kevin tested the 2.0 track from the Chesky Super Sampler and no bass was redirected to the sub.

 

[Tony Genovese]

If, by chance, the 45A turns off it's subwoofer output with all speakers set to large...where would the ICBM get the LFE signal.

I don't think it works that way. The LFE would go to the ICBM LFE input. The ICBM has this cute little LFE knob that allows you to blend the LFE to your taste. Some disks have an overpowering LFE and the ICBM can tame it.

 

[Mike Sloan]

Tony, Please clarify where exactly the ICBM would get the LFE signal if nothing is output from the Subwoofer output from the DV45A(assuming that it turns off the sub out with speakers set to large...and I don't know this to be true.) You have 6 cables from the DVD player going into the ICBM...if the "sub out" on the 45A is disabled...where else is the ICBM going to receive it. I realize it would have no problem summing the bass from all speakers set to large...but the signal for the LFE outputs from the sub out on the 45A.

 

[Tony Genovese]

I don't think it does turn off the LFE. According to the manual it outputs multi channel SACD and DVD-A: fronts, surrounds, center and LFE. The issue of bass mangagement is, I believe, separate. Thus, as long as sub is set to on, LFE will go to the sub output even if all the other speakers are set to large.

 

[Ron Newsome]

Well, not quite. Kevin tested the 2.0 track from the Chesky Super Sampler and no bass was redirected to the sub.

Tony, I'm listening to a 2.0 track from the Chesky Ultimate DVD Surround Sampler & 5.1 Set-Up Disc as I type this, and I'm hearing Bass. When I switch to 4.0 I hear nothing. But now here's something really strange; I switched to the 6.0 mix and not only did I hear bass, but I heard a full range signal. Well not quite full range, but up to the high frequency limit of a 12" woofer, maybe around 1 or 2khz.
Reading through the booklet that came with the Chesky DVD, I came across this on page 12, under How, And Why We Do It:
"Most audiophile systems use full-range speakers, don't employ center speakers, and don't depend on subwoofers for low bass reinforcement. Our 6.0 mixes reassign the Center Channel(Channel 5) to the left 55º front side speaker, and the Subwoofer/LFE Channel(Channel 6) into the right 55º front side speaker."
This sounds to me like the DVD-A software plays a big part, in that it can be used to program the direction of the channels, and tell the DVD player how to output the signal. If this 6.0 mix can tell my 47Ai to output a full range signal thru its Sub/LFE output, instead of the usual low frequency stuff, then it can very well tell it to output absolutely nothing also(4.0).
Tony, maybe your 5.0 recording was engineered in such a manner, and designed to be played thru full-range speakers, with no Sub. Just a thought!
What does everyone else think?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Ron- But the BM settings in the player should override any content within the disc.

I do have a 5.1 DVD-A disc (Blue Man Group). I guess the trick now, is to figure out if this can be used to test the Pioneer's DVD-A BM. Basically, there *should* be a difference in the sub output between small/on and large/on (and especially large/off), simply due to the large amounts of bass in the recording. *Assuming* that the recording itself doesn't just have the low freq stuff in the 0.1 channel.

Actually, I only ever did test the 4.0 tracks on the Chesky disc. How do you get to the 2.0 DVD-A tracks?

 

[Tony Genovese]

But the BM settings in the player should override any content within the disc.

And that's the point. If it doesn't redirect bass to the sub on .0 content, it's not working properly. The ICBM does redirect all bass below the crossover point chosen to the subwoofer. This describes the term "bass management". Since the Pioneers clearly don't function this way, they do not have bass management, the original header of this thread.

 

[Brian L]

Tony, Please clarify where exactly the ICBM would get the LFE signal if nothing is output from the Subwoofer output from the DV45A(assuming that it turns off the sub out with speakers set to large...and I don't know this to be true.)

OK, I am NOT Tony, but do have a 45A and ICBM. I have it set exactly as you asked...all speakers large, Sub On.

In that configuration, the 45A sends ONLY the LFE to the LFE input of the ICBM (as it should). Within the ICBM, bass from the main channels is stripped off, combined with whatever is on the LFE channel, and sent to the sub (BM 101, IMHO).

It do NOT think that the 45A turns the LFE off in that arrangement.

It is my assumption (risky I know) that the sub test tones on MOST test discs only have bass in the .1 LFE channel. As such, it goes straight to the sub output of the 45A, and through the ICBM to the sub.

BGL

 

[Andrew W]

Almost all the classical SACDs are recorded 5.0 so an ICBM is almost a requirement if you have small center and surrounds and want any bass.

From a recording engineers point of view, this makes sense. You can easily extract the bass from all channels and send it to the sub, but it is not possible to take the .1 and distribute it back out.

 

[Brian L]

From a recording engineers point of view, this makes sense. You can easily extract the bass from all channels and send it to the sub, but it is not possible to take the .1 and distribute it back out.

Actually, if you set the player to Large/No Sub, the .1 should be redirected to the mains.

In practice this may or may not happen, but that is what is supposed to happen.

If you have a test tone that produces an LFE signal, you can easily tell if this works in your rig.

BGL