Pioneer DV-45A does not have bass management (1 Viewer)

[Mike Sloan]

Well i just finished a full day of tweaking and fiddling with the ICBM and I can say that it fixes 98% of the problems I have been experiencing with DVD-A and SACD! I was worried that the inability to "increase" the LFE was going to be a problem...but it isn't. Out of my entire collection of hi-rez audio (over 50 and growing) only 3-4 actually utilize the LFE channel. Almost all the mixes don't use the LFE and blend most of the bass into the L/R channels. A few send low freq. to the rears...but not substantial. One SACD in particular went waaaay over the top with the LFE and I almost blew my subs. It is the SACD "Celebrating the music of Weather Report." I actually wrote a warning on the CD case to turn the LFE all the way down! Anyone else familiar with that disc? I have full range speakers for the L/R and have found the "recombine" switch fun to play with...probably won't use it once I get tired of shaking things up! I currently have the Elite DV-45A and it does have speaker distance setting for DVD-A but nothing for SACD. I don't know of any players that have distance settings for SACD. All in all, very satisfied with the ICBM....wish it had remote capability! Now I have to dig deep for cables...probably go for the Outlaw PCA's...look substantial!

 

[Paul DM]

Hi All,

I just upgraded to a new home theater system - HK 525 and Boston Acoustics VRs. (I am new to the 5.1 scene) I found out my Sony DVP-S500D won't play DTS DVDs, but will play DTS encoded CDs. I figured it is time to upgrade to a universal player because I want to check out SACD and DVD-A. The Pioneer DV-45A looks great because the price is getting lower (under $400). However, I was disappointed to read this informative thread and find the unit does not do base management. Of course, now I understand I can purchase an Outlaw ICBM and have a pretty nice setup.

My question - I see Pioneer is coming out with an inexpensive universal player - DV-563a - I think? Slated to appear in June for $279. But, I have read this player converts the SACD stream to PCM before it is output. Does the 45A process SACD the same way and does this make a large difference in the sound? I like rich sound, but I don't know if I would be able to tell the difference. Also, Pioneer claims the new player will have base management, do you think it will suffer from the same issue as the 45A has been shown to do here?

Any other decent alternatives in the single disc universal market for less than $500?

Thanks,
Paul.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Paul- Ok, the 45a and 47ai do NOT convert DSD SACD to PCM to do BM. DSD all the way through a Sony (!) chip.
Also, remember, as far as Tony and I have tested , the 45a and 47ai does do BM correctly for:
SACD
DVD-A 2.0
We know that DVD-A 4.0 does not work right (although to be honest, I don't know how many of these discs exist). DVD-A 5.1 is unknown.
But a 45a and ICBM are a very cost effective combo.

 

[Mike Sloan]

Paul DM:
I am very satisfied with the 45A/ICBM combo. The 45A does have bass management...but the slope is 6dB/octave for SACD and that is really inadequate.Crossover is 100hz and with that slope the sub becomes easy to localize. Check out Internet prices on the Yamaha 2300...I have heard good thing about that one. One more thing...the 45A does suffer from the Chroma bug...but not as bad as others...I could only detect it in "pause" mode...all other video looks really nice!
Chroma Upsampling info:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ug-4-2001.html

 

[Brian L]

Mike,

Ditto your findings on the Weather Report disc....the bass is WAY over the top. Makes me wonder of they did not put bass in the LFE AND in the main channels, or just went nuts with it!

There is a note in the booklet that said they mixed with the sub hot a bit, but not that much (don't recall the exact amount).

With my 45A and the ICBM, I find that I can turn DOWN the LFE control about 1/4 or a turn, and still have plenty of bass.

Just for yucks, have you calibrated with the DVD-A AND the DD test tones? I think you will see that in DD, the level is low compared to DVD-A.

I am away from home at the moment, but I had posted a while back on that exact subject.

BGL

 

[Paul DM]

Thanks for your replies. I ordered my DV-45A this afternoon from 6th Ave electronics. I will get the ICBM later on.

Paul.

 

[Paul DM]

Oh wow, I have new found love for my HK 525 receiver.

I just told you guys I ordered the DV-45A this afternoon and would probably get the Outlaw ICBM later on. Well, after reading posts on this forum I just realized a mistake I made. I could not find the bass management on my 6 channel direct input on the HK, I thought these people were smoking something when they were talking about it. I should have RTFM. I consider myself a gear head, but the older I get, the less manuals of my stuff I read. Don't know why.

Anyway, I read my manual now and have found that my HK does digital bass management on the 6 and 8 channel direct inputs. It does this via simple small/large settings and HK's triple crossover. I think I am set and probably do not need the ICBM now. But this makes me wonder....

To do the digital bass management will my HK turn the analog input into digital PCM - meaning I lose the quality people talk about of the SACD DSD stream? I know it has to lose something being converted from D to A and then A to D and then it finally gets to the amp.

You guys think it would still be worth it in sound quality to get an ICBM?

Thanks,
Paul.

 

[Steve_AS]

{deleted by poster]

 

[Mike Sloan]

I hope you all are still subscribed to this thread...I have a question:
When switching between my Denon 4802 bass management and the ICBM bass management, I have encountered a phase shift problem with the subwoofer! There is a 180 deg. phase shift between the ICBM analog bass management and the digital bass management on my A/V receiver. If I adjust the sub to be in phase with the mains when using the digital crossover in my Denon 4802, and then switch to the ICBM's analog crossover for the 5.1 inputs, the sub is now approx 180 deg out of phase. I have to switch the phase on my subs when switching between CD/DVD-V(handled internally in the Denon) and SACD/DVD-A (handled by the ICBM). This is a bigggg problem! I am still in my 30 day window and I need a fix for this or it will be going back! Any Ideas? :frowning:

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Mike- The Outlaw 950 does *exactly* the same thing (80Hz analog crossover on the 5.1 inputs vs the digital crossover)... I betcha most people haven't tested this, that's why you don't hear a lot about it.
Yeah, I think we talked about this on the 950 forum...

 

[GlenHall]

I have been experimenting with both DVD-A and SACD for the last 6 months and have come to these conclusions.
Both formats were originaly designed to be used with 5 full range speakers. I happen to have the luxury of having 2 systems to experiment with. My main audio system is 5 full range speakers and a sub. I use no BM and the sound is simply spectacular. The only way to get close to the same level of quality sound in my HT setup, was to use the ICBM. I highly recommend its use, if you are not set up with 5 full range speakers. I think the BM issue will be resolved in the next generation or 2 of Universal Players. As we get away from the analog connections, I'm sure it will be done in the "Digigal Domain", as DD/DTS etc, is done.

I enjoy DVD-A and SACD in my HT set up, but it doesn't approach the sound of my audio only system.

Glen

 

[BobH]

Tony, for what it's worth, I am probably going to get the DV-45A JUST to play the Barenboim Beethoven (all 6 discs). I think this and other DVD-As will be worth the bother. Yes, Virginia there are classical lovers of DVD-A out there.

 

[Paul_Psutka]

I'm surprised there's no mention of time-alignment with regards to the DV-45A. Now that we know S&V was incorrect with their assessment of the DV-45A having full BM, I'm not sure if I feel comfortable assuming they were correct about the DV-45A having time alignment for DVD-Audio mode. (they said they've never seen a SACD player that had time-alignment)

S&V says the Yamaha 2300 does not have time alignment for DVD-Audio or SACD.

Any thoughts on time alignment with the DV-45A? I imagine it would be a much harder thing to test than BM.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Mike- The Outlaw 950 does *exactly* the same thing (80Hz analog crossover on the 5.1 inputs vs the digital crossover)... I betcha most people haven't tested this, that's why you don't hear a lot about it.

I did and as I posted on a different thread I found no such problem at all.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

You could use a test disc with "impulse" tests on it to test for time alignment. (A series of "clicks" that hit each channel.)

Lewis- Might depend on how you test. Someone tried to tell me that with Avia's speaker-to-sub phase tests, that they didn't have the problem either. But when they got the Chesky disc, they were amazed to find that they did. (I've always thought the Avia speaker-to-speaker phase tests were good ones, but the speaker-to-sub phase tests were worthless.)

I think we are up to 5 people now who have confirmed the phase issue between the digital and analog crossovers in the 950.

 

[Brian L]

I have this on DVD-A but I can't concur with your finding,but we talking about 2 different formats here.

As far as the DVD-A of the Telarc Weather Report disc, its the most bass heavy DVD-A I have; partcularly Birdland. If that kick drum does not get your system thumping, ain't nuthin' gonna do it!

I was reading the Telarc booklet the other day, and there is actually a recommendation that if you have proper Bass Management, you SHOULD NOT USE the LFE channel. It sort of implies that, at least for that title, that the bass is doubled up in the LFE and the mains, which would agree with what me ears are telling me.

I found that very interesting. Since I am using a 45A with an ICBM, I dialed the LFE control on the ICBM to max attenuation.....too bass shy for my tastes, but not as thin as you would think.

For this title, I leave the LFE at reference, and just turn the sub level of the ICBM down a bit. Perhaps not accurate, but I like a nice bottom end (don't we all???).

As far as the sub out being inverted on the ICBM, I can confirm that when using the Chesky DVD-A test disc, I too found that the sub level was inverted versus using AVIA for sub phase settings.

Since two different test discs gave two different results, I am not sure what to conclude, but I will say that I thought the Chesky test was way cool....no need to run back and forth between the sub and your SPL meter. Assuming its accurate, that alone was worth the price of the disc.

While I am on the subject of test discs, I also found that the Chesky DVD-A tests required that I increase the channel levels from my AVIA values (to achieve 85 dB).

After I balanced with Chesky DVD-A, I ran the Chesky DD test tones (on the same disc). Without changing any levels, I found that the DD tones produced at 81 dB vs. 85 db for the DVD-A tones.

Since I had to increase me levels for DVD-A (relative to AVIA's DD tones), I would conclude that the Chesky DD tones are a bit lower then the AVIA tones, all other things being equal (which of course, they NEVER are!).

The geek in my really wishes that someone would test the damn test discs, and determine which are accurate and which are not. I am an absolute slave to having my channel levels right!

BGL

 

[Lewis Besze]

As far as the DVD-A of the Telarc Weather Report disc, its the most bass heavy DVD-A I have; partcularly Birdland. If that kick drum does not get your system thumping, ain't nuthin' gonna do it!

My Blue Man Group disc will blow the heads off on that one.
I used S&V test disc for the phase check[technicaly it's the Avia],I also able to reach both woofers[the sub and the one in my main],and they kick in the same way,I've tried this with both way tghrough the 6 ch input[my Panasonic has a built in DTS decoder],and through the digital inputs.
This makes me confident that the 950 doesn't invert the polarity,but I'm less confident about the Chesky disc now.

 

[Brian E]

So what's the general consensus on this unit? Since you can get them for about $400 now I'm real tempted to grab one. Does one NEED an ICBM in order for this thing to work? How's the video?

After reading through most of this thread it sounds like while it may have a few issues, what doesn't, it's a pretty solid piece of equipment. Do you guys concur?

Quotes like this worry me however.
"Without the use of the ICBM, low frequency performance is compromised and damage to individual speaker components can occur."

My speakers aren't all that compared to what some of you guys have, but they're fine for me & I sure couldn't afford to replace them right now.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Lewis- You should get the Chesky disc. The 950's analog crossover *is* about 180 deg out of phase with the digital crossover. Like I said, others have noticed this too. Over on the Outlaw forum.
The Chesky disc has phase tests for the specific crossover freq from the mains to the sub. Avia/S&V don't. Much easier to use.
In fact, I 1st spotted the problem not even with the Chesky disc, but a simple discrete test tone CD. The Autosounds 2000 disc (#101). Play the 80 Hz tone. Invert the subs polarity. Is it louder or softer. Use an RS meter, not ears. Using the analog vs digital crossovers in the 950, you get opposite results. The Stryke CD will also work.

 

[Brian L]

So what's the general consensus on this unit? Since you can get them for about $400 now I'm real tempted to grab one. Does one NEED an ICBM in order for this thing to work? How's the video?

An ICBM is needed for ultimate performance. There are issues with BM, although before I got the ICBM, I thought the unit sounded OK. That said, I was only using 5.1 sources....others have noted problems with 4.0 and perhaps other combinations.

Now that I do have an ICBM, all is right with the world (save for lack of SACD time alignment).

As for video, I think its a fine player, but Sercrets totally trashed it. You'll need to trust your own eyes on that one, but I personally do not think you would be dissapointed.

BGL