Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase 4 General Discussion (Spoilers discussed for All Films -- Please Read First Post) (2 Viewers)

[Adam Lenhardt]

MCU Phase 1
MCU Phase 2
MCU Phase 3

This thread will contain spoilers so if there is any MCU film you haven't seen yet, the reading of this thread is at your own peril. Again, MCU spoilers will be discussed in this thread without any warnings.

A general thread for discussion related to multiple MCU movies and TV shows in Phase 4.

Spoilers won't be needed for any MCU film, including new movies as soon as they release in North America.
Spoilers of MCU Disney+ series should be in spoiler tags until last episode of season has aired.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

With that in mind, how would everyone rank the Phase Four films thus far personally?

For me, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings and Spider-Man: No Way Home are virtually tied for the top tier. No Way Home is special and satisfying because it manages to give Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield's characters closure I never would have expected when they ended their runs while also using their appearance to significantly progress Tom Holland's story. On the other hand, Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings is satisfying because it feels so fresh and new and introduces such a great new actor and character in Simu Liu and Shang-Chi.

I would put Black Widow below them on the middle tier. It is a solidly entertaining standalone adventure, but nothing in it really justified why we saw it after Natasha's on-screen death. In that way, it felt like an afterthought and would have been more satisfying if it had been able to influence her arc instead of being tacked onto it.

Thor: Love and Thunder and Eternals are massively different films, but I think they both fall under Black Widow for me. Love and Thunder is more entertaining to watch in the moment, which is why I would choose to rewatch it more often of the two. But is wildly uneven and emotionally empty. It also doesn't feel particularly fresh. Waititi is just doing a more extreme version of what he already did in Ragnarok, and that film was better. On the other hand, Eternals gets points for being a big swing that feels different for Marvel. Its problem is that there are too many underdeveloped characters who are difficult to invest in, and it just isn't fun to watch. It is interesting to me that these have such opposite issues, but neither one lives up to its potential.

I would put Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness last. The cast is great and much more committed than the script deserves. The problem is that the movie is terribly written. It sidesteps the story points the first Doctor Strange film put in place for a sequel and instead focuses on a story where Doctor Strange isn't even the main character driving the plot. Worse, it completely undermines Wanda's character growth from WandaVision in order to basically do that again in a much less nuanced manner. The multiverses shenanigans didn't seem that much removed from the regular MCU, which was a missed opportunity. Sam Raimi's stylistic direction makes for several cool sequences on their own that were fun to watch, and I really do like those individual elements. But the whole movie just made me upset, especially on Wanda's behalf. Of course, because I am an MCU fan and I have been collecting all the films, I'm still going to get this one. But I won't be revisiting it as much as my favorites.

My ranking matches yours, except I'd put Eternals at the bottom of the pack:

1. Spider-Man: No Way Home
2. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
3. Black Widow
4. Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness
5. Eternals

On the TV side, with the Disney+ shows:

1. "WandaVision"
2. "Hawkeye"
3. "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier"
4. "Moon Knight"
5. "Loki"
6. "What If?"

"Ms. Marvel" will definitely be in the top three, but where in the top three will depend on how well this week's finale sticks the landing.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The season finale of "Ms. Marvel" had a reveal that has potentially major ramifications for the MCU in Phase Four:

Spoiler: Ms. Marvel 1x06

In the comics, Kamala Khan is an Inhuman. In this TV series, it is revealed that -- in addition to being descended from a jinn -- she is the first confirmed character in the MCU proper to have the X gene, making her the MCU's first mutant.

 

[Joe Wong]

Spoiler

While Brie Larson is going to be leading The Marvels, she's had a steady presence already in Phase 4, with 2 post-credits scenes (Shang Chi and Ms Marvel).

This is in addition to starring in the Avengers adventure on the Disney Wish cruise ship:



as well as being in the Disneyland Paris roller coaster ride

Avengers Assemble: Flight Force l Disneyland Paris | Disneyland Paris

Heroes wanted! Team up with Iron Man and Captain Marvel and help them save the world from an intergalactic threat. Ready for take off?

www.disneylandparis.com

with a recent dedication ceremony (Brie appears around at around 10:47)



(Note: Both attractions are likely not Phase 4-related.)

 

[Jake Lipson]

My ranking matches yours, except I'd put Eternals at the bottom of the pack.

I really debated about where to place Eternals relative to Multiverse of Madness. It's mostly just semantics because both of them are very low for me. However, I think I would give Eternals a slight edge because Multiverse of Madness actually made me upset at Wanda's treatment. I left the theater for Multiverse of Madness in a bad mood. I left the theater for Eternals not really feeling anything, but at least I wasn't angry.

I also think that Zhao needs to be commended for trying something that felt a little bit out of the box for Marvel even if it didn't work. They need to continue to take risks. Otherwise you get things like Love and Thunder, which is fine but feels very same-y.

Speaking of which, you didn't rank Love and Thunder in your list with the movies. Where would you place it?

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

However, I think I would give Eternals a slight edge because Multiverse of Madness actually made me upset at Wanda's treatment. I left the theater for Multiverse of Madness in a bad mood. I left the theater for Eternals not really feeling anything, but at least I wasn't angry.

Multiverse of Madness was disappointing and at times extremely frustrating, but at least I wasn't bored. [i}The Eternals[/i] just left me completely cold.

Speaking of which, you didn't rank Love and Thunder in your list with the movies. Where would you place it?

Love and Thunder was solidly in the middle of the pack for me. Black Widow gets the edge because it gave us Florence Pugh as Yelena.

My updated ranking on the film side:

1. Spider-Man: No Way Home
2. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
3. Black Widow
4. Thor: Love and Thunder
5. Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness
6. Eternals

My updated ranking on the TV side:

1. "Ms. Marvel"
2. "WandaVision"
3. "Hawkeye"
4. "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier"
5. "Moon Knight"
6. "Loki"
7. "What If?"

Perhaps the MCU will start moving other heroes off to the west coast (and in some cases, keeping west coast based heroes there). Will we see the start of the West Coast Avengers? Shang-Chi is already there. Kate Bishop has a fun LA arc in the Matt Fraction Hawkeye comics, so she's a natural fit. I assume wherever Kate goes Yelena/Black Widow also goes. Ant-Man and the Wasp are already there. A Wonder Man/Simon Williams show has been announced for Disney+.

While New York City looms large in the MCU like it does in all things Marvel, the West Coast has been pretty well represented in the MCU from the beginning. Before building Avengers Tower where the Pan Am Building is in our universe, Tony Stark was based on the West Coast. The first Thor was primarily set in New Mexico. Ant-Man is based out of San Francisco.

Part of the difference, too, is that the MCU is primarily told via a series of major events rather that a lot of ongoing narratives. When there's a new issue every month, where a superhero is based out of really matters. In the movies, the superheroes mostly go wherever the action is.

I would suppose that the next big team will be the Thunderbolts:

• Helmut Zemo, assuming he escapes Wakandan custody.
• Black Widow (Yelena Belova)
• Ghost (Ava Starr)
• Taskmaster (Antonia Dreykov)
• U.S. Agent (John Walker)

Meanwhile, Kamala stays on the east coast. Perhaps we see the grand opening of Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters? Maybe unlike the comics, Kamala is a charter member of the team?

I kind of want Kamala to stay in Jersey City doing her own thing; by the end of the first season, she's got her powers pretty much mastered, so I don't know that she needs Xavier's school.

I do hope that the first MCU X-Men movie is a contemporary-set First Class story, though, perhaps even with the blue and yellow matching uniforms. If we meet Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Angel, and Iceman as teenagers, we can see their entire arcs play out rather than just encountering them in the middle of their journeys.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Multiverse of Madness was disappointing and at times extremely frustrating, but at least I wasn't bored.

I totally get that. For me, my anger at the handling of Wanda exceeded my apathy toward the characters in Eternals. But they're basically interchangeable on a ranking list because neither one was ultimately satisfying.

Ghost (Ava Starr)

It's interesting you mention her because she is the only character on your list who we haven't seen in some time. Scott was going into the Quantum Realm to get healing particles for her when Thanos' snap happened. But Endgame didn't give us an update on her. We don't know if Scott was able to get the healing particles. If he did, they would be five years later than she was expecting them. Obviously, Scott had more pressing to deal with when he got out. But we don't know if Ava was snapped or not and what her condition is now.

I kind of want Kamala to stay in Jersey City doing her own thing; by the end of the first season, she's got her powers pretty much mastered, so I don't know that she needs Xavier's school.

I tend to agree. Plus, she's going to gain even more experience with her powers in The Marvels. I'm not sure what Xavier could teach her that she wouldn't already know from firsthand experience once she's been on an adventure with Carol. But as I said in the Ms. Marvel thread, if they use Kamala to introduce the X-Men, she would bring a new perspective. She never existed in the Fox X-Men universe, so her presence would be a distinguishing feature in a series where most of the leads will inevitably be compared to the actors who previously played the characters for Fox. So I wouldn't be opposed to Kamala crossing over with the X-Men to help launch them into the MCU. That would be cool. But I hope she exists independently of them and is not going to become exclusively a member of their ensemble. She deserves to continue to take the lead her own journey, as her series allowed her to do.

 

[Joe Wong]

There are some new Marvel film titles that have apparently just been trademarked (not coincidentally 1 day before Marvel's session in Hall H on Saturday July 23 at Comic-Con).

Spoiler

Avengers: Secret Wars is expected... and Avengers: The Kang Dynasty sounds cool!

 

[Jake Lipson]

(not coincidentally 1 day before Marvel's session in Hall H on Saturday July 23 at Comic-Con).

I would be really surprised if they make announcements about new projects tomorrow. Disney is going to want to save the big reveals for D23, their own convention, which is coming up in September.

I think the more reasonable expectation tomorrow is for them to talk about things we already know are coming, like Wakanda Forever showing a trailer. The announcement of the next slate of projects is more likely to happen in at D23.

 

[Joe Wong]

I would be really surprised if they make announcements about new projects tomorrow. Disney is going to want to save the big reveals for D23, their own convention, which is coming up in September.

I think the more reasonable expectation tomorrow is for them to talk about things we already know are coming, like Wakanda Forever showing a trailer. The announcement of the next slate of projects is more likely to happen in at D23.

I would agree that Disney would probably like to save some big announcements for D23… but they did make a huge splash at Comic Con in 2019 (post Endgame), even though there was also D23 that year as well.

 

[Jake Lipson]

but they did make a huge splash at Comic Con in 2019 (post Endgame), even though there was also D23 that year as well.

That is a good point

It has to be a very hard line to walk. They don't want any fans to leave Comic-Con upset, so they've got to bring something. But they also obviously want to be able to tout the biggest news at their own event. I don't know how to strike that balance, so I'm sure glad I'm not in charge.

 

[Joe Wong]

That is a good point

It has to be a very hard line to walk. They don't want any fans to leave Comic-Con upset, so they've got to bring something. But they also obviously want to be able to tout the biggest news at their own event. I don't know how to strike that balance, so I'm sure glad I'm not in charge.

I don’t know the historical attendee numbers, but I’d have to think Comic Con has more attendees than D23 given its history and reputation for big announcements. People going to Comic Con would most likely go for more than just the Disney announcements. And since D23 is just Disney-related, maybe there’s a limit to how many can attend that event.

I agree it’s a hard line to walk.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I don’t know the historical attendee numbers, but I’d have to think Comic Con has more attendees than D23 given its history and reputation for big announcements.

Yes, but Disney's end goal here is for D23 to become competitive with Comic-Con. They won't manage that if they give away a bunch of big news at Comic-Con.

 

[Joe Wong]

Yes, but Disney's end goal here is for D23 to become competitive with Comic-Con. They won't manage that if they give away a bunch of big news at Comic-Con.

For sure … they have enough anticipated content that they could just do their own show. I mean, they even make some consequential announcements at shareholder events!

 

[Jake Lipson]

For sure … they have enough anticipated content that they could just do their own show.

D23 is their own show.

 

[Sam Favate]

I don’t think Lucasfilm has a presentation at ComicCon this year, so all of their announcements could be made at D23 (which is in September), with a handful of Marvel announcements.

Star Trek is having a big series of panels in Hall H tomorrow, the same location as Marvel, so I’m not sure if that limits Marvel’s time.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Star Trek is having a big series of panels in Hall H tomorrow, the same location as Marvel, so I’m not sure if that limits Marvel’s time.

I heard Marvel's panel will be one hour.

 

[Joe Wong]

I heard Marvel's panel will be one hour.

And scheduled for 5pm PT.

SDCC 2022 schedule: Dates, times, and what's going on at today's San Diego Comic-Con panels

Everything you need to know about this year's San Diego Comic-Con, including all of today's main panels

www.gamesradar.com

 

[Joe Wong]

Phase 5:



Edit: that pic is missing Thunderbolts (summer 2024)

Edit 2: here’s a more complete pic

 

[Joe Wong]

There are some new Marvel film titles that have apparently just been trademarked (not coincidentally 1 day before Marvel's session in Hall H on Saturday July 23 at Comic-Con).

Spoiler

Avengers: Secret Wars is expected... and Avengers: The Kang Dynasty sounds cool!

So the trademarked title for Captain America 4 was confirmed, as well as Thunderbolts.

Good likelihood the other titles are legit, even if not ultimately used or are changed.