Lionsgate Press Release: Terminator 2 Judgement Day Limited Collector's Edition (4k UHD) (1 Viewer)

[Tino]

I'm looking forward to "a few words about" from Mr. Harris and curious to know if he applauds such a kind of restoration where all grain has been removed to present a crystal clear digital version of a film. (which in no way reminds of what we saw at theaters back then)

Do you an official link to where it says “all” grain has been removed?

 

[YanMan]

While the new master definitely shows some major improvements over the ancient HD master in some cases, it does appear something has gone horribly wrong.

Take this screencap, for instance:

http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=11116&d2=11117&s1=109100&s2=109125&i=0&l=0

The old HD master in this case actually shows some detail that has been smoothed out in the new master (not to mention the laser color got botched). Look closely at the T-800's shoulder joint. The old master shows some detail that looks like smudge marks on the metal that have almost been completely smoothed out in the new master. Also look at the smoke cloud in the background and how it becomes more like an undefined blob in the new master.

If this is truly representative of the final product, then I am left thinking that this could have been so much better than what we are getting.

 

[Konstantinos]

Do you an official link to where it says “all” grain has been removed?

No, I don't.
I firstly use my eyes, and secondly this is a procedure favoured by Cameron as he did in Aliens:

"It's spectacular. We went in and completely de-noised it, de-grained it, up-rezzed, color-corrected every frame, and it looks amazing.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=5007

although there, he added back grain.

 

[Tino]

So you’re assuming all grain has been removed then. You haven’t actually seen it?

 

[Lord Dalek]

There actually was still grain on Aliens. It was just at a fairly more natural level than what Cameron claimed. Also doesn't help that most of the "grain" on the previous transfer of that film was just mpeg artifacting.

 

[Konstantinos]

So you’re assuming all grain has been removed then. You haven’t actually seen it?

I'm not assuming anything.
I see the screenshot comparisons where in the new remaster it clearly shows that there is no grain at all, and also I've read reviews from people I trust that watched the whole film and said there is no grain at all.
Also, removing grain is a standard procedure for convert to 3d, as it was with the degrained 3D Jurassic Park.

In no way, this reminds the restoration of the first Terminator, where there you can clearly see fine grain.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=1564&d2=1563&s1=14778&s2=14762&i=2&l=0
So, no, i don't need a written source to confirm to me what I see with my eyes.

Maybe the US Bluray has been postponed to correct this?
We'll see and I hope (as many others) that it is so.

There actually was still grain on Aliens.

yes, I said that.
He removed completely all grain (as you read in that quote) and then he added back fake grain.

 

[Tino]

I'm not assuming anything.
I see the screenshot comparisons where in the new remaster it clearly shows that there is no grain at all, and also I've read reviews from people I trust that watched the whole film and said there is no grain at all.
Also, removing grain is a standard procedure for convert to 3d, as it was with the degrained 3D Jurassic Park.

In no way, this reminds the restoration of the first Terminator, where there you can clearly see fine grain.
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=1564&d2=1563&s1=14778&s2=14762&i=2&l=0
So, no, i don't need a written source to confirm to me what I see with my eyes.

Maybe the US Bluray has been postponed to correct this?
We'll see and I hope (as many others) that it is so.



yes, I said that.
He removed completely all grain (as you read in that quote) and then he added back fake grain.

Sorry but until you see it in motion you are assuming.

No offense but I don’t trust caps or other peoples eyes. I like to judge for myself.

 

[Konstantinos]

Sorry but until you see it in motion you are assuming.

Do you mean that in motion grain will magically appear out of thin air, when it isn't there in the caps?
Because when it is in the movie, this shows in the caps too.

 

[Tino]

Do you mean that in motion grain will magically appear out of thin air, when it isn't there in the caps?
Because when it is in the movie, this shows in the caps too.

I disagree. To me caps are pretty much useless as they are frequently unreliable.

Not looking to argue. Without seeing the film You trust caps and other peoples opinions on them and I don’t.

No worries. Carry on.

 

[Worth]

If it's based on the master used to create the 3D version, that sounds about right. I saw it in theatrically and there wasn't a speck of grain grain visible.

 

[Konstantinos]

I disagree. To me caps are pretty much useless as they are frequently unreliable.

Ok. We agree to disagree then.
For me caps are reliable (when grabbed right of course) since I own 250 blurays and not once have I seen something different on the bluray from the caps (grain-wise, or color-wise, or brightness-wise etc.). Perhaps it's because i see both caps and blurays on the same screen, on my pc and it's not like I'm switching screens as most do who watch their blurays on their TV.

 

[Konstantinos]

Do you an official link to where it says “all” grain has been removed?

Well, since it was posted in the other forum, here's the official source where it clearly says all grain was removed!
http://vfxvoice.com/converting-a-classic-how-stereo-d-gave-terminator-2-judgement-day-a-3d-makeover/

Some of the toughest parts of converting Terminator 2 involved dealing with film grain, as McCoy describes. “Grain was a challenge in those final steelworks shots where the characters are bathed in this beautiful red light on one side of the face, with this dark blue on the other side. To get the grain consistently off of them, we had to pull very detailed keys, and had to meticulously try and do highlights, midtones, and shadows differently across the whole movie.”

 

[Tino]

Well, since it was posted in the other forum, here's the official source where it clearly says all grain was removed!
http://vfxvoice.com/converting-a-classic-how-stereo-d-gave-terminator-2-judgement-day-a-3d-makeover/

No where in that article does it clearly state “all grain was removed”.

 

[DVDvision]

Caps aren't reliable. You don't watch a movie frame by frame. You watch it 24fps. The original 2002 master have blown out highlights in one shot out of three. It's unwatchable.

There were some "accidents" in this master, during the HDR to HD conversion, and a few shots have blown out highlights in the 2K version. Also a couple of times, the framing is off in the 2K. But that's it. 3D & 4K looks great, even with the grain scrub, the film is back to it's original look. Overall It's the new go to version any fan of the film should have.

The digital fixes (replaced stunt doubles with Arnold) smooth out the viewing, those moments always bothered me originaly.

While we wait for a version with grain and the SE scenes reinstated in 4K, this is fantastic.

You know a reissue is already set a couple of years down the line anyway, to go with the new film.

 

[Paul_Warren]

Been looking at my 4K UHD this morning. This is the 2017 Theatrical 3D version transferred to 2D 4K UHD.

Pros:
Looks way better than it ever did before on home video.
Colour timing is impeccable.
HDR is muted but suits the look of the movie.
Lots of fine detail you have not seen on the home version before.
Looks like a movie which was shot a few years ago.
In motion it looks very filmic.
Couple of fixed CG shots on the stunt double are seamless as is the fixed lorry windscreen when it crashes in the storm drain.
Sound mix is better than ever.
2017 BD transfer is a massive upgrade over every other home video version but it has the exact same shiny look as the 4K UHD. Both are close in quality as well not much to choose between them. 4K UHD is clearly better though due to more WCG & HDR.

Cons:
DNR overkill has scrubbed the image to make it look waxy & overly smooth.
Degraining has produced a very smooth looking artificial image.
Arnolds face looks very waxy, shiny & smooth (could just be the makeup used to make him seem oily & robotic).
BD with 3 versions from 2 different poor quality masters looks awful. The quality shifts between the different versions is distracting & very noticeable. Watch the 2017 BD version only the other 2 look terrible as they have not been restored at all its been authored by mixing the 2017 3D master with 2 older unrestored masters!


Overall if you like this movie the 4K UHD is a massive upgrade over every other home video release. That is undeniable. But it also has issues especially the DNR heavy grainless look makes it appear at times a little different to what your used to. It is what it is & what the director intended as the way to view this movie in 2017.

Buy for the 4K UHD upgrade alone its massive (the previous home video versions are dated & poor so the baseline was not much to begin with!).

 

[YanMan]

It is what it is & what the director intended as the way to view this movie in 2017.

Thanks for the balanced review, Paul.

Not sure we can really know that this is what Cameron intended, though. Both Aliens and Titanic came out looking wonderful with basically having the same process involved. My guess is that the ownership situation with T2 and how it gets released is much more out of Cameron's control than the films involving his relationship with Fox. I think it is much more likely that this is a result of StudioCanal going cheap and cutting corners for this new HD master.

We can only hope they kept the raw scan of the negative before the DNR pass was applied for the 3D conversion and will release that one day (color-timed, of course).

Also, I am seeing some reports from others that the color timing fluctuates wildly for a few seconds at some point in the sequence where Sarah invades Dyson's house. Did you notice the same?

 

[Stephen_J_H]

We also cannot discount advances in film technology in the intervening years. Film grain was "massaged" for Aliens in the same way that Universal employed grain management for dupes and blow-ups in To Kill a Mockingbird, so grain reduction rather than grain elimination. I can't comment on the work done on Titanic or T2 as yet, since I haven't seen the mew masters for either, but Cameron's affinity for shooting in Super 35 until the rise of the digital era would certainly have had an effect on the grain levels of his films.

 

[Lord Dalek]

We also cannot discount advances in film technology in the intervening years. Film grain was "massaged" for Aliens in the same way that Universal employed grain management for dupes and blow-ups in To Kill a Mockingbird, so grain reduction rather than grain elimination. I can't comment on the work done on Titanic or T2 as yet, since I haven't seen the mew masters for either, but Cameron's affinity for shooting in Super 35 until the rise of the digital era would certainly have had an effect on the grain levels of his films.

Its hard to tell for sure as a lot of that "grain" in the older transfers was just mpeg artifacting and compression noise.

 

[DVDvision]

Regarding the opening shot which is a long tracking shot, it looks like they used the initialy scrubbed 2D prep for 3D version of the shot (which erase some details to facilitate conversion). That's weird, but it's only that shot. It also have this color timing problem of not showing the pink laser, turning them to blue. I assume it's a mastering error.

 

[Paul_Warren]

Also, I am seeing some reports from others that the color timing fluctuates wildly for a few seconds at some point in the sequence where Sarah invades Dyson's house. Did you notice the same?

Just rewatched again. It does not fluctuate what happens is the sequence begins at night so the detail is low & the light is very low key & diffuse so this appears to look very plain as the outside night scenes have little fill light then as Sarah Connor enters Dyson's house the house lights give the remaining scenes in there a stronger look. The detail on the actors faces, textures on their clothes & other background details are razor sharp & stunning. Even though this is not 100% perfect detail wise (due to DNR overkill & degraining) its still a stunning looking transfer on 4K UHD.

I cannot imagine anyone watching the 4K UHD & thinking they just wasted their money on it as its a big upgrade on all previous home video formats the level of detail even with DNR overkill is just stunning but the colour timing is immaculate & HDR is very muted so it looks like a decent cinematic image overall.