Is Criterion working on a blu-ray of Heaven's Gate? (1 Viewer)

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by JamesNelson /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/90#post_3963255
Sometimes Criterion would issue a commentary on the CAV edition of a given title but not on the CLV version. In know that Invasion of the Body Snatchers was that way and at least a few others. Incentive enough, in many cases, for ponying up the extra $$ for the CAV editions.
I'm still hanging on to my LD collection specifically for some of those great Criterion commentaries. Howard Suber's commentaries on The Graduate and High Noon are like veritable film classes.

I wish MGM had licensed the commentary on the Criterion release of The Silence Of The Lambs ( was that DVD or Laserdisc or both. ? ) for their Blu ray release, anyone know if that can be heard somewhere online. ?

 

[Powell&Pressburger]

I honestly still have hope that someday Criterion will issue Silence of the Lambs on blu, I doubt MGM would be against it ... but I think the main concern for Criterion would it be a worthwhile release. My main point is that I really don't like the MGM Blu of the film. It does not look correct in my opinion. the HD trailer does! I would buy a Criterion release in non SAW like artwork anyday.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

I'm still hanging on to my LD collection specifically for some of those great Criterion commentaries. Howard Suber's commentaries on The Graduate and High Noon are like veritable film classes.

And Janine Basinger on It's A Wonderful Life. Amazing school on the style of Capra.

 

[Derrick King]

I honestly still have hope that someday Criterion will issue Silence of the Lambs on blu, I doubt MGM would be against it ... but I think the main concern for Criterion would it be a worthwhile release. My main point is that I really don't like the MGM Blu of the film. It does not look correct in my opinion. the HD trailer does! I would buy a Criterion release in non SAW like artwork anyday. 

There is a video of Criterion producers Kim Hendrickson and Susan Arosteguy talking at the Wexner Center for the Arts last October and about 43 minutes in one of them mentions that a Silence of the Lambs Blu-ray could've possibly happened, but that they weren't sure it would be worthwhile. Maybe if enough people ask them they will reconsider.

 

[iDarren]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought UA mostly set fairly small budgets, which had to be respected. So not sure why they would have been seen as restricting freedom within this already understood framework.

UA's history was one of creative freedom (to generally responsible filmmakers). The current execs were taking over after a massive exodus that led to the creation of Orion. If they had pulled the plug on Cimino after the first week, they'd have been as good as committing professional suicide as well as signaling to all of Hollywood that UA was no longer an artist friendly place to work.

 

[iDarren]

Does no one here care about the animal cruelty inflicted on the horses by the director for this film, to me that's far worse than any faults the actual movie might have, huge stink about that at the time the movie came out but it seems no one is bothered by all that now.

I hate animal cruelty. But if it happened in a film made at a time before the laws were changed, and understanding I can't go back and stop it, I will still watch the film - westerns for example.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by iDarren /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/120#post_3963391
I hate animal cruelty. But if it happened in a film made at a time before the laws were changed, and understanding I can't go back and stop it, I will still watch the film - westerns for example.

I think Heaven's Gate is notorious though, its different to most films where perhaps you had horse tripwires ( westerns ) the cruelty goes way beyond the norm, they actively kept the AHA away and locked out and there was a court cases brought by the horse owner against the makers of the film, as far as i am aware animal cruelty laws were in place at the time the movie was filmed but even if they were not i find what happened on this particular film to be deplorable, its right up there with Jesse James in my book and that's the reason the AHA got into films. ( Oh and Jesse James is a good film except for that notorious scene )

From Wikipedia but this information is confirmed by the AHA and is accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(film)#Accusations_of_cruelty_to_animals

Heaven's Gate was marred by accusations of cruelty to animals during production. One assertion was that live horses were bled from the neck without giving them pain-killers so that their blood could be collected and smeared upon the actors in a scene. The American Humane Association (AHA) asserted that four horses were killed and many more injured during a battle scene. It was claimed that one of the horses was blown up by dynamite. This footage appears in the final cut of the film.

The AHA was barred from monitoring the animal action on the set. According to the AHA, the owner of an abused horse filed a lawsuit against the producers, director, Partisan Productions, and the horse wrangler. The owner cited wrongful injury and breach of contract for willfully depriving her Arabian gelding of proper care. The suit cited "the severe physical and behavioral trauma and disfigurement" of the horse. The case was settled out of court.

There were accusations of actual cockfights, decapitated chickens, and a group of cows disemboweled to provide "fake intestines" for the actors. The outcry prompted the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) and the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers (AMPTP) to contractually authorize the AHA to monitor the use of all animals in all filmed media.

Heaven's Gate is listed on AHA's list of unacceptable films.The AHA protested the film by distributing an international press release detailing the assertions of animal cruelty and asking people to boycott it. AHA organized picket lines outside movie theaters in Hollywood while local humane societies did the same across the USA. Though Heaven's Gate was not the first film to have animals killed during its production, it is believed that the film was largely responsible for sparking the now common use of the "No animals were harmed..." disclaimer and more rigorous supervision of animal acts by the AHA, which had been inspecting film production since the 1940s.

P.S. If anyone from Criterion reads this thread then i also would like them to release The Silence Of The Lambs on Blu ray.

 

[iDarren]

Thanks for the history, I haven't seen Heaven's Gate, nearly bought the full length version (released in Aus) on DVD a few years back but put it off and decided to hold out for a HD presentation. I had no idea how far they went.. if these reports are accurate then Cimino is even crazier than I thought (and I knew he was quite the eccentric and possible a bit crazy).

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by iDarren /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/120#post_3963401
Thanks for the history, I haven't seen Heaven's Gate, nearly bought the full length version (released in Aus) on DVD a few years back but put it off and decided to hold out for a HD presentation. I had no idea how far they went.. if these reports are accurate then Cimino is even crazier than I thought (and I knew he was quite the eccentric and possible a bit crazy).

It would be nice if they provided some background on all this on the Blu ray disc, have Cimino talk about it on a commentary or an extra, what's done is done, discuss it rather than hide away from it all, that's how i feel anyway, if the accusations are overblown then talk about it, maybe when they settled out of court with the person who owned the horses both parties agreed not to talk about it, who knows, i think it's better to address the issues than not since they have been around now for over thirty years.

 

[Richard--W]

A very distressing history that is repeated a thousand times over south of the border and in foreign countries. There's no excuse for it. A few seconds of animal abuse takes the spirit out of the whole film for many people.
To be honest, as bad as these offenses are, I'm more concerned with the story being told. I don't wish to sound callous, but what's done 32 years ago is done, and now I watch the film.

 

[Felix Martinez]

Some accusations appear to have been removed. And the reference to the horse being blown up "with a rider on its back" - what happened to the rider?

Certainly the accusations that remain are troubling.

 

[Richard--W]

... And the reference to the horse being blown up "with a rider on its back" - what happened to the rider? 

No human beings were injured during the making of this film.
But several flies were swatted and one basset hound was stung by hornets.
Look, these accusations sound like wild exaggerations to me. Even in 1980 a person could go to jail for starving or neglecting or abusing animals. Movie sets were no different. They'd never get away with it, not in 1980 and not now. I've worked on productions where the Animal Humane Association assisted in training horses to do specific stunts safely. They're an ally, not an enemy. Even with the best of planning mistakes can and do happen, but I don't believe these accusations.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Richard--W /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/120#post_3963489
No human beings were injured during the making of this film.
But several flies were swatted and one basset hound was stung by hornets.
Look, these accusations sound like wild exaggerations to me. Even in 1980 a person could go to jail for starving or neglecting or abusing animals. Movie sets were no different. They'd never get away with it, not in 1980 and not now. I've worked on productions where the Animal Humane Association assisted in training horses to do specific stunts safely. They're an ally, not an enemy. Even with the best of planning mistakes can and do happen, but I don't believe these accusations.

I believe them, the guy on the horses back was probably a stuntman and was prepared for the explosion, i don't believe the AHA are just making this up.

 

[Vincent_P]

Bach goes into the animal cruelty accusations in his book FINAL CUT and confirms that one horse was killed when an explosion malfunctioned, but says that their man on the ground in Kalispell, Derek Kavanagh, didn't observe any trip wires being used. From the book:
'Kavanagh never personally saw evidence of wire tripping and maintained it wouldn't have mattered if Cimino had respect for the animals or not, because boss wrangler Rudy Ugland did and, as Kavanagh reported later, "would have wire tripped Cimino before allowing it to happen to one of his horses." Still, the reports were made... "Disgruntled employees filed those reports," said one crew member. "Well, who wouldn't be disgruntled on a twelve week shoot that lasts for six months?" commented Kavanagh...'
Vincent

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Vincent_P /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/120#post_3963512
Bach goes into the animal cruelty accusations in his book FINAL CUT and confirms that one horse was killed when an explosion malfunctioned, but says that their man on the ground in Kalispell, Derek Kavanagh, didn't observe any trip wires being used. From the book:
'Kavanagh never personally saw evidence of wire tripping and maintained it wouldn't have mattered if Cimino had respect for the animals or not, because boss wrangler Rudy Ugland did and, as Kavanagh reported later, "would have wire tripped Cimino before allowing it to happen to one of his horses." Still, the reports were made... "Disgruntled employees filed those reports," said one crew member. "Well, who wouldn't be disgruntled on a twelve week shoot that lasts for six months?" commented Kavanagh...'
Vincent

What about the person who sued for mistreatment of their horses, presumably this person wasn't involved in the shoot and only sued after the film was shot and they got their horses back, they must also have had enough evidence to prove mistreatment otherwise why did they settle out of court.

Oh and Rudy Ugland worked on The Missouri Breaks and guess what happened, after one horse drowned and several others were injured, including one by American Humane Association (AHA) prohibited tripwire, this film was placed on the AHA's "unacceptable" list. This in my opinion puts less faith in that book and more faith in what the AHA say.

The AHA was also very unhappy about Bite The Bullet, co-incidentally another film where Rudy Ugland was the horse supplier.

Oh and guess what, two more films where Rudy Ugland was involved, for one he supplied the livestock, for the other he was chief wrangler, Ulzana's Raid, deemed unacceptable for animal cruelty by the AHA and Chato's Land, he was chief wrangler on that one and while he may not have been involved in the horse animal cruelty on Ulzana's Raid he sure as hell was on Chato's Land. A pattern is forming here.

Oh and there is more, the AHA were not allowed access to the set of Tom Horn, a film made just before Heaven's Gate and Rudy Ugland was head wrangler, horses were tripped during the making of the film. Oh yeah Rudy is a fine upstanding guy who would never allow animal cruelty on any film he has worked on. ( sarcasm )

 

[Vincent_P]

If it bothers you that much, don't buy the disc, Foxy. Problem solved!
Vincent

 

[TravisR]

What about the person who sued for mistreatment of their horses, presumably this person wasn't involved in the shoot and only sued after the film was shot and they got their horses back, they must also have had enough evidence to prove mistreatment otherwise why did they settle out of court.

Their lawyers could have told them it would be easier and cheaper to settle at that point than spend a couple of years fighting it in court and paying their legal fees.

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Vincent_P /t/318845/is-criterion-working-on-a-blu-ray-of-heavens-gate/120#post_3963603
If it bothers you that much, don't buy the disc, Foxy. Problem solved!
Vincent

I still want to get the word out regarding animal cruelty since it matters to me, hence my posting here, it does seem that after Heavens Gate that Rudy took extra precautions with the animals, before that film he didn't, i guess the fuss that film caused had an effect on him, a positive one.

Anyway, point made, the thread can now be enjoyed by Heaven's Gate fans, i promise to only reply if someone quotes me.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

they must also have had enough evidence to prove mistreatment otherwise why did they settle out of court.

It's often cheaper to minimize adverse publicity and legal fees and settle than to go to court, even if you can easily win. Not saying that's the case here, but I'm hesitant to infer guilt in such cases.
I found it interesting that as I am re-reading Final Cut for the 4th time due to this thread, that I came on the page quoted regarding this literally right after it was posted. It did mention that the horse that was involved in the explosion did have a rider, who was thrown, landed badly, and was hospitalized, which I don't believe was mentioned (the quotes came from either side of that piece of info).

 

[Richard--W]

It's not easy to get away with the flagrant abuse of animals on a movie set. There is too much oversight. The Humane association is present; legally, they can't be blocked or prevented from being there. The cast and crew are present and witness to everything that's going on. They love animals as much as FoxyMulder. People don't turn their back on these things. Insurance companies are present on the set and insist on safety or they won't insure and bond a production, in which case it don't get made and everybody gets sent home. Except for the inevitable mishap or act of god, I dismiss the accusations.