I’ll give you a topic: Is Digital before Physical a Good Thing? Discuss! (2 Viewers)

[Ronald Epstein]

Listen, I admit as I write this post I am not sure whether I am going to get a lot of crap for starting this topic but I have wanted, for so long to start an actual conversation thread. Been a long time since I have done that and I miss posting stupid sh*t.

Consider that a safety measure in case this thread goes bad

I am just slowly waking up to things.

I know that when Disney announced Avatar 2 last year it was the first time I had ever heard of "FOR PREMIUM DIGITAL OWNERSHIP"

Not sure if that was their words as I just ripped that off of the current BARBIE announcement...

...which brings me to the point of this thread...

Today I am racing (as I always try to do here) to be the first to post an exciting breaking press release. Oh, cool, "BARBIE," I think.

So, I started a new post and threw together the BARBIE announcement inserting the usual "(4k UHD)" and "(BlU-RAY)" into the subject field. I was about to post that announcement when my eyes suddenly, for no reason, glanced over at the words, "FOR PREMIUM DIGITAL OWNERSHIP"

I had to make huge corrections on the press release I was almost cocky enough to post.

So, now Warner is doing exactly what Disney has been doing?!

I mean, I know all the labels do some sort of AVAILABLE ON DIGITAL 30 days before

However, unless I am wrong, these new studio releases seem to be on digital months before physical media

I have two thoughts on this:

I have nothing against anyone who has the opportunity to purchase something like AVATAR or BARBIE digitally at a lower ownership cost, months ahead of the disc release.

However, I also see it as part of the continued wave that has been slowly killing the disc market. This new advanced digital ownership idea seems more like a big FU to Physical Media. I certainly hope the two can continue to get along nicely.

...and yeah, I sadly admit as someone who helped start this very forum of disc enthusiasts...

I buy more movies on digital over disc these days. There's the affordability and the convenience of having it in your hands to watch it that much quicker. There's also the fact I just don't have room for discs anymore no matter how much I love them. Don't get me wrong -- 4k and Blu-ray run in my blood. They reside within my soul. No matter what, the best presentation will always be on a disc. However, I have been slowly (slower than most) waking my eyes up to the fact that discs are becoming less and less relevant in today's world.

I know, late to the party again

 

[Worth]

No matter what, the best presentation will always be on a disc. However, I have been slowly (slower than most) waking my eyes up to the fact that discs are becoming less and less relevant in today's world...

That's already no longer true. Sony's Bravia Core service and Kaleidescape offer movies at bitrates equal to or higher than 4K discs.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

That's already no longer true. Sony's Bravia Core service and Kaleidescape offer movies at bitrates equal to or higher than 4K discs.

Oh, Worth, really?

You had to "up" me with that?

Those are also wildly expensive (but I am sure worthy) services

 

[Josh Steinberg]

With respect and love, as always, very late to the party here.

What they’re calling “premium digital ownership” is something the studios came up with during the pandemic. These are digital purchases for movies that may still be playing in theaters, offered to consumers at a higher price point before the titles become available on disc, subscription streaming and regular lower priced digital ownership.

There was an article recently in one of the trades describing how this has impacted revenue. Essentially, it’s been mostly new revenue, and hasn’t robbed from existing sources. The people buying these titles during the premium price window are generally customers that do not go to movie theaters, and who do not normally buy discs or films. They are people who normally spend on a subscription streaming service, who see value in having access to the movie while it’s still generating buzz in theaters and not yet available on their subscription.

Now, in general, digital versions of movies having been coming out about two or three weeks before discs, and that’s been the case since about 2012. So that’s nothing new.

In terms of quality, that will change over time, especially as compression codecs improve and high speed bandwidth becomes more accessible to people. A disc is just a container for data files. A UHD disc, for instance, can hold up to 100gb of data. There’s nothing to say a streaming version of the same movie can’t also be the same file size or even larger because there’s no physical disc limit on streaming. Discs are also locked into the spec that was agreed upon when the format was created. A DVD has to be MPEG2. A Blu-ray has to be MPEG4 or VLC. A UHD disc has to be MPEG5. But a streaming service can constantly update its app and the codec it uses, so it can take advantage of improvements in video delivery without anyone needing to buy new hardware or software. There’s going to come a time where streaming across the board is better than discs because it won’t have arbitrary file and format limits that are locked in with discs.

 

[Gary OS]

I have been slowly (slower than most) waking my eyes up to the fact that discs are becoming less and less relevant in today's world.

I know, late to the party again.

For sure, Ron. I was probably a bit too quick to jump on that one (I started my "Is the b&w era of TV on DVD slowly coming to an end?" thread over 13 years ago ). But the warning signs are absolutely here now. Especially for those of us who want more vintage fare.


Gary "I own a number of digital releases but I always prefer physical media if at all possible" O.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I will add in response to the “is this a good thing” question that anytime a customer pays for the content they consume, it’s a good thing for the film industry.

The biggest problem everyone faces is piracy.

The moment a new title is streaming, it’s illegally ripped and made available for illegal file sharing/downloading/bootlegging. The moment a new disc is replicated, it’s pirated and uploaded to one of those sites in full quality, weeks before the discs hit store shelves. It takes all of five minutes to learn how to access this illegal material and doesn’t require anything more than any regular household computer. The industry is essentially on the honor system that people pay for what they watch. So at this point, I think they care more that they get payment in some form than what exactly anyone is choosing to watch on. And as a film fan that doesn’t want the industry to die from revenue lost to piracy, I also care more that people pay for what they watch than how they watch.

 

[JohnRice]

Oh, Worth, really?

You had to "up" me with that?

Those are also wildly expensive (but I am sure worthy) services

As the saying goes, it's the exception that proves the rule.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Now, in general, digital versions of movies having been coming out about two or three weeks before discs, and that’s been the case since about 2012. So that’s nothing new.

Okay, see that is where I was very uncertain.

It SEEMS these recent PREMIUM DIGITAL RELEASES are being offered sooner than normal digital releases and are pushing back disc release. That's just perhaps my warped perception of something that is not happening.

If nothing has changed, then I owe everyone an apology.

 

[Jake Lipson]

As Josh mentioned, the premium digital ownership window has been around for a few years now. I don't love it, but I'm used to it. What has been newer recently is a trend of announcing the digital version completely separately from the physical release and not even giving us both dates at the same time. They are making the window between the digital release and physical release longer than it has been in the past.

As much as I personally find it annoying, I don't think the studios are going to lose any money by doing this. Anyone who really wants to buy a physical disc of Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny and/or Barbie will do that whether it comes out a couple of weeks after the digital release or a couple of months. They only stand to gain from digital customers who will pay extra money in order to have access to the title earlier. Especially in the case of a very pricey film like Dial of Destiny, it is in Disney's interest to squeeze as much money out of it as possible.

I would like the studios to figure out a way to provide the digital version early with pre-order of the disc. Across the Spider-Verse came out digitally a month or so ago. I didn't buy it because I knew I wanted the physical Blu-ray, which came out today. It, of course, includes a digital copy too, which is the same thing I would have gotten if I had paid for the digital release. It would be nice if there was a way to obtain the digital copy when the release comes out if you commit to buying the physical release when it is available.

Amazon already does this with their AutoRip feature on eligible CD purchases. You get the MP3s for free when they receive your order of the physical copy. The only catch is that if you cancel the physical order after using the free MP3s, you get billed for the MP3s. This is designed to prevent people from getting everything for free by cancelling the physical item. But that's fair.

If Sony had been able to provide me with the digital copy last month, I probably would have watched it a couple times while waiting for the disc to arrive. I'm happy to have paid for the disc, which includes a digital code. But I won't pay twice for the same thing. So I waited.

But they aren't aiming for me with the early premium digital ownership. They're aiming for people who aren't going to buy the discs anyway and will pay extra for a certain period of time because the title is new.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

As Josh mentioned, the premium digital ownership window has been around for a few years now. I don't love it, ut I'm used to it. What has been newer recently is a trend of announcing the digital version completely separately from the physical release and not even giving us both dates at the same time. They are making the window between the digital release and physical release longer than it has been in the past.

Jake, that right there was the one-paragraph point I should have made.

That is the trend I am concerned about.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

And here I thought "Premium Digital Ownership" was those weird Web3 experiences [think NFTs] that WB has been mucking about with.

Digital will always be a licence. Unless you have something tangible in your hands, that can be played without an internet connection, it's a licence. Anything else can be turned into vaporware with a click of a mouse.

 

[Worth]

And here I thought "Premium Digital Ownership" was those weird Web3 experiences [think NFTs] that WB has been mucking about with.

Digital will always be a licence. Unless you have something tangible in your hands, that can be played without an internet connection, it's a licence. Anything else can be turned into vaporware with a click of a mouse.

I don't disagree, but sooner or later it's going to be the only option. There are already a couple of Disney titles that aren't available on any disc format.

 

[JohnRice]

Digital will always be a licence. Unless you have something tangible in your hands, that can be played without an internet connection, it's a licence. Anything else can be turned into vaporware with a click of a mouse.

I know that's the horror story that constantly gets repeated, but until/unless it becomes more of a reality than discs that become unplayable, it will remain mostly an urban myth. However, it is one of the reasons I typically only buy streaming versions from Apple. In the meantime, it provides the option to buy something relatively recent, even blind, often in 4K with DV and Atmos, for as little as $5. That is is an option that has never and will never exist with discs.

I virtually never pay more than $5 for a streaming version of a movie. Honestly, for $5, if something disappears years down the line, I'll be able to live with it.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Okay, see that is where I was very uncertain.

It SEEMS these recent PREMIUM DIGITAL RELEASES are being offered sooner than normal digital releases and are pushing back disc release. That's just perhaps my warped perception of something that is not happening.

If nothing has changed, then I owe everyone an apology.

No apologies necessary

I do think we’re seeing discs almost afterthoughts in certain cases, which I suppose was inevitable when physical media went from being a $20 billion a year business to a $2 billion one. Last summer, Top Gun Maverick hit digital around August but the disc didn’t come until November. It’s looking like a similar timeframe this year with the latest Indiana Jones.

My take on that isn’t so much that digital itself is pushing the disc back but that the disc is a niche product with high production costs, and there have been all kinds of replication delays as most of the pressing plants have been closed due to lack of demand, so I think the studios are de-prioritizing the disc, but I think that’s as much for logistics as anything else. I don’t know if it still works this way but when I was ordering disc production a million years ago, major labels paid more for replication to get a guaranteed delivery date, and smaller labels like the one I worked for would opt for the lower rate that came with the caveat that your delivery could be delayed if they needed your slot for a higher paying client. I don’t know that it’s exactly that way anymore but it makes a certain amount of sense that if discs aren’t in demand anymore, it’s not the product line worth prioritizing.

Could that continue? Sure, I could see that. I think at this point, it’s up to enthusiasts like us to support the products that we’re interested in if we want to see those products continue. You know as well as I do how many times people say they want a specific title on disc, and then don’t buy it when it actually comes out.

 

[jcroy]

And here I thought "Premium Digital Ownership" was those weird Web3 experiences [think NFTs] that WB has been mucking about with.

Digital will always be a licence. Unless you have something tangible in your hands, that can be played without an internet connection, it's a licence. Anything else can be turned into vaporware with a click of a mouse.

Even in the case of the 4Kbluray discs, there is a little known provision (found on wikileaks dumps of pilfered Sony documents) where the encryption keys can in principle be located on a server over the internet, and not on the actual 4Kbluray disc. Though so far, no widely released 4Kbluray titles have used this encryption method yet.

This is no better than vaporware if that key server either goes offline, or is shut down permanently.

 

[John Dirk]

There’s going to come a time where streaming across the board is better than discs because it won’t have arbitrary file and format limits that are locked in with discs.

As @Worth mentioned earlier in the thread, this is already essentially true for those who can afford [and are willing to pay for] the necessary components, with one caveat. Owning a Kaleidescape or similar system is of little value without a companion high-speed Internet connection. The latter can be difficult to obtain, based more on geography than ability to pay. Until the so-called digital divide is truly bridged, high end streaming cannot be made universally available. We'll get there but it may take longer than any of us would expect as the incentive just isn't there for rural or sparsely populated areas.

 

[jcroy]

A Blu-ray has to be MPEG4 or VLC.

Bluray can also be encoded in mpeg2, such as the early Fox released titles back in 2006 -> early 2007. For example, the original pressings of Alien Vs. Predator bluray was encoded as mpeg2.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Bluray can also be encoded in mpeg2, such as the early Fox released titles back in 2006 -> early 2007. For example, the original pressings of Alien Vs. Predator bluray was encoded as mpeg2.

We already know that from previous experiences. Thankfully, they don't use it any longer.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

I know that's the horror story that constantly gets repeated, but until/unless it becomes more of a reality than discs that become unplayable, it will remain mostly an urban myth. However, it is one of the reasons I typically only buy streaming versions from Apple. In the meantime, it provides the option to buy something relatively recent, even blind, often in 4K with DV and Atmos, for as little as $5. That is is an option that has never and will never exist with discs.

I virtually never pay more than $5 for a streaming version of a movie. Honestly, for $5, if something disappears years down the line, I'll be able to live with it.

I've had it happen with music purchased on iTunes. Not Apple Music streaming files.

 

[Chip_HT]

I would like the studios to figure out a way to provide the digital version early with pre-order of the disc. It would be nice if there was a way to obtain the digital copy when the release comes out if you commit to buying the physical release when it is available.

This. Definitely this.

There's been several times where I preordered a Marvel movie from DMC within the first or second week that it was in theaters, but I had to wait until the disc shipped to get it, even when it came out on digital at least two weeks prior.