HDR issues with specific discs and displays, or, "Why is this disc so dark?" (1 Viewer)

[Carlo_M]

The 820. It's normally set to off (or Standard I think it's called). But the other three settings definitely brightens the picture. Here's a video from YT showing it (if the timecode link doesn't work, go to the 3 minute 20 second mark).

 

[Kaskade1309]

The 820. It's normally set to off (or Standard I think it's called). But the other three settings definitely brightens the picture. Here's a video from YT showing it (if the timecode link doesn't work, go to the 3 minute 20 second mark).

You're talking about two different things -- yes, the HDR "environment" settings are tied to the Optimizer, but those are there to alter the look of the output based on room conditions. "Standard" isn't "off," per se, but it is what's supposed to be used when viewing in a typical dark home theater room (I use Standard with my Samsung LCD -- which is FAR from a light cannon at a max of 800 or so nits -- and it's still plenty bright when the lights are off and we're watching UHD Blu-rays with HDR).

Now, the HDR Optimizer ITSELF can be set to ON or OFF, and when it's turned ON (with HDR10 signals; it doesn't work with Dolby Vision or HDR10+) you gain access to the multitude of menus and settings ATTACHED to the Optimizer system, such as the environment selections, Black and White Tone adjustments, Dynamic Range Adjustment slider, etc.

I have found -- and so have others -- that when you engage the Optimizer during HDR10 playback, it tends to DIM the image just a slight bit (not brighten it) and this makes sense because the system is attempting to internally tonemap the nits to a more manageable level for your display or projector to handle from there. It's not like it dims it completely down where it looks terrible and dull; it just darkens it ever so slightly so you can better see details in things like very bright explosions/fireballs, etc.

Keep in mind that the Optimizer works like this: depending on what you have your "HDR Display Type" menu selection set to (in the Panasonic's setup menu) -- i.e. Basic Luminance LCD, Mid/High Luminance LCD, OLED -- the system will sense when a disc has been mastered at a value higher than your connected display can comfortably handle, and then bring it down to the level threshold as indicated by your HDR Display Type setting. From there, your display takes care of the rest.

While this classic tonemapping procedure is done by just about every HDR-capable display, Panasonic claims their system in these players works better, getting the discs tonemapped before their signals are sent out to the display to handle. Furthermore, if a disc doesn't exceed the value threshold as set by your HDR Display Type selection, the HDR Optimizer doesn't do anything and your display handles it. At least this is the way it was explained to me and how I understand it.

There has been one title in my entire UHD Blu-ray collection that has exhibited a clear difference using the HDR Optimizer on my UB9000 as compared to the previous UHD BD player I was using, a Cambridge Audio CXUHD (which is basically a clone of the Oppo UDP-203), and that is Aquaman. This disc has been mastered at such an intense nit level that I was able to see the tonemapping differences when the disc played back on my Panasonic, fed to my mid-level-luminance Samsung LCD -- the extreme piercing highlights of flashes, explosions, rich color elements and more were all rendered more accurately and "satisfying" when the HDR Optimizer presented them; don't know more specifics than that, but I did note the difference.

Now, in getting back to the brightness and your concerns -- you can raise those HDR environment options higher than "Standard" if the image isn't bright enough, but you can't "lower" it beneath "Standard" if that makes any sense; ahhhh....never mind, I see you replied as I was writing this.

Yes, you can brighten the image by going higher than "Standard" on the environment settings; you can also raise the Dynamic Range Adjustment slider, which is what's affected by going higher on the environment settings anyway.

No need to apologize for the term usage.

 

[Carlo_M]

Okay, that was a lot. All I meant was to say Unforgiven is too dark and that I used that one option (apologies for using the wrong term) to brighten it. Otherwise, I flatline all the player's video settings to give me exactly what's on the disc.

 

[letthemeatcake19]

lol these threads are absolutely insane, every type of excuse possible in order to avoid the fact that the films have been revisionally color graded and altered.

 

[JoshZ]

lol these threads are absolutely insane, every type of excuse possible in order to avoid the fact that the films have been revisionally color graded and altered.

Some of them have been, sure. But it's also true that HDR tone-mapping is complicated and results may vary on different screens.

 

[sbjork]

Some of them have been, sure. But it's also true that HDR tone-mapping is complicated and results may vary on different screens.

Widely. It's a genuine problem with no practical solution other than case-by-case tweaking.

 

[Worth]

lol these threads are absolutely insane, every type of excuse possible in order to avoid the fact that the films have been revisionally color graded and altered.

So have a lot of films in SDR.

 

[letthemeatcake19]

Some of them have been, sure. But it's also true that HDR tone-mapping is complicated and results may vary on different screens.

so how many people out there calibrate their screens?? I've never calibrated anything and media files look the same on pc, phone, tv. Sorry but you are all being bamboozled. Of course this is taboo conversation, one gets banned the second one even mentions it.

 

[letthemeatcake19]

So have a lot of films in SDR.

they are revisionistically and innacurately altered across the board in every format. They are usually darkened sometimes even to ten stops to fit a modern aesthetic. What is being done to films by restorers would be considered destructive if they were applied to any other artform like painting. The public also does not know what is being done or what a film "restoration" entails. Most people feel this is how the films originally looked. They don't know they've been scrubbed, alteres tonally and in contrast.

 

[sbjork]

so how many people out there calibrate their screens?? I've never calibrated anything and media files look the same on pc, phone, tv. Sorry but you are all being bamboozled. Of course this is taboo conversation, one gets banned the second one even mentions it.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just trolling here, if you've never calibrated anything and all media files really do look identical to you regardless of display, then you may have bamboozled yourself. It's absolutely true that many films on home video have been altered from how they originally looked, and it's equally true that sometimes it's for the worse. But it's not true that all displays look identical regardless of calibration, and it's completely untrue that all 4K presentations with HDR look identical on all 4K displays. Variances with the implementation of HDR and tone mapping have been a persistent issue since the format was introduced. That's reality.

Even the potential issues with modern transfers isn't quite so simple, though. When people complain about alterations in new versions, their only frame of reference is usually older home video versions, and they're making the assumption that the older versions were automatically more correct -- which appears to be exactly what you're doing. But that's no more true than to say that newer transfers are automatically more correct. Even people who compare a transfer to their own memories of seeing a print in a theatre are just fooling themselves; visual memory simply isn't that good. It's a complicated issue that requires much research, and an open mind that isn't taking anything as read.

And if this was a taboo conversation that gets people automatically banned, then nearly all of the internet forums that cover audio and video would vanish overnight. That's the majority of of their content. The only thing that gets people banned is the tone that they use, especially when they attack others in the process. There aren't any truth-speaking martyrs here.

 

[JoshZ]

so how many people out there calibrate their screens?? I've never calibrated anything and media files look the same on pc, phone, tv. Sorry but you are all being bamboozled.

Let's be real here. If you can't even be bothered to calibrate your screen, you simply do not have an informed opinion on this topic.

 

[Dick]

Unforgiven was always dark as a bat's groin by design, with or without HDR, but it really causes issues with the HDR grade. That's one film that shouldn't even have had one. It's one of the few discs that I own that makes me wish that I had a 4K OLED to watch it on, instead of a projector.

4K OLED'S can be problematic also, unless you unlock the genie in the bottle. LG brand OLED's, at least, have auto dimming, which occurs whenever there is danger of burn-in (freeze frame, leaving channels on too long that have steady network bugs, etc.). But if you've had your set for a while, burn-in ceases to be an issue and dimming becomes a mere pain in the ass. The weird thing about it, though - even in motion - is that darker scenes are dimmed down even further, so a movie like UNFORGIVEN is like midnight toward the end, and THE LIGHTHOUSE is completely unwatchable.

If you have an LG OLED, buy yourself a service remote ($10 or so). You can find a workaround online that will allow you to disable the auto dim. I wish I had discovered this years ago. Works like a charm.

 

[Kyle_D]

The service remote hack does not work LG's newer sets, but they apparently reworked the auto-dimming algorithm so it's now triggered by static imagery instead of static average brightness levels. Consequently, it's now much less likely to be triggered while watching content.

 

[Peter Neski]

I have trouble with the hdr on Days of Heaven 4K disc ,the image on my Sony tv played by my hdr pan br player was too dark,when I switched
to my Sony br player without hdr ,the darkness problem went away
?? I played other hdr discs and they looked fine,

 

[RolandL]

Why is this a Sicky Thread? Only 73 posts since it started and only one in the past four months?

 

[Robert Crawford]

Why is this a Sicky Thread? Only 73 posts since it started and only one in the past four months?

A thread isn’t necessarily sticky because of popularity. It could be sticky because of technical information.