HDR issues with specific discs and displays, or, "Why is this disc so dark?" (1 Viewer)

[Dick]

If anyone is using an LG OLED display and trying to watch UNFORGIVEN or THE LIGHTHOUSE or THE WITCH without making a very particular adjustment, your set will dim itself even further during the darker passages, which is screamingly frustrating. After literally two years of trying to figure how disable the goddamn auto-dim feature, a post in someone's thread on another forum had the answer: Purchase an inexpensive Service Remote. You can't make the adjustment without one. If anyone wishes for me to post the directions for disabling the auto-dim on their LG displays with this remote, please let me know.

 

[Robert Crawford]

If anyone is using an LG OLED display and trying to watch UNFORGIVEN or THE LIGHTHOUSE or THE WITCH without making a very particular adjustment, your set will dim itself even further during the darker passages, which is screamingly frustrating. After literally two years of trying to figure how disable the goddamn auto-dim feature, a post in someone's thread on another forum had the answer: Purchase an inexpensive Service Remote. You can't make the adjustment without one. If anyone wishes for me to post the directions for disabling the auto-dim on their LG displays with this remote, please let me know.

We had a good discussion regarding the Service Remote and steps for disabling the auto-dim on LG displays starting with this post.

 

[Dick]

We had a good discussion regarding the Service Remote and steps for disabling the auto-dim on LG displays starting with this post.

My bad, then.

 

[Robert Crawford]

My bad, then.

No bad, you just wasn’t aware of that discussion. Plus, I didn’t want you doing any extra work writing down those non-dimming steps when it’s already been done.

 

[Dick]

No bad, you just wasn’t aware of that discussion. Plus, I didn’t want you doing any extra work writing down those non-dimming steps when it’s already been done.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Are you talking about the MaxFALL number?

I believe so; I'll double check if that's what I was looking at...

197/200 isn't necessarily unusual. It all depends on the disc. Blade Runner 2049 is even lower than that.

Yeah, the member in the other thread I started about this said the same thing -- including what you're saying about Blade Runner -- and I was kind of surprised (even though around 200 nits is about double what a garden variety SDR piece of content is at).

I'm HDR10 only, since I run a projector, but on the other hand, mine does frame-by-frame tone mapping, so I might get different results.

I'm HDR10 only, as well (I am running a Samsung LCD, which doesn't support Dolby Vision), and I'm using a Panasonic DP-UB9000 disc player, which boasts the "HDR Optimizer" and does the frame-by-frame mapping for HDR10 content, as well.

I don't have Scream to check, though. But not all discs are going to give you the "punch" that you're talking about. The UHD for Out of the Blue has an HDR grade that's nearly indistinguishable from the Blu-ray. That's not always a bad thing. Granted, that's an older movie shot on film, while Scream was probably captured digitally, and you might expect something more dramatic. But that's up to the cinematographer, or whoever handles the grade for home video.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing; I was just surprised to see it because every other 4K Blu-ray I own exhibits nit numbers significantly higher than this. I also wanted someone's confirmation regarding whether they were seeing the same things I was with this title.

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Are you talking about the MaxFALL number? 197/200 isn't necessarily unusual. It all depends on the disc. Blade Runner 2049 is even lower than that. I'm HDR10 only, since I run a projector, but on the other hand, mine does frame-by-frame tone mapping, so I might get different results. I don't have Scream to check, though. But not all discs are going to give you the "punch" that you're talking about. The UHD for Out of the Blue has an HDR grade that's nearly indistinguishable from the Blu-ray. That's not always a bad thing. Granted, that's an older movie shot on film, while Scream was probably captured digitally, and you might expect something more dramatic. But that's up to the cinematographer, or whoever handles the grade for home video.

Hey jork,

Just wanted to follow up with you regarding the Scream disc -- I watched it again last night and confirmed with my Panasonic player's HDR output menu that the MAX nit number is 197 and the AVERAGE nit number is around 87, which I thought was shockingly low.

I realize we talked about this above, but it's really weird because every 4K Blu-ray I have in my collection that contains a film transfer in a scope aspect ratio -- i.e. letterboxed 2.35/2.40 -- causes extreme light blooming/bleeding into those letterboxed areas due to the nature of our edge-lit LCD (when extreme highlights in a scene creeps near those black bars, the light bleed into the bars is horrifying, turning the bars almost pure grey sometimes if the scene is punchy enough) -- but when watching this new Scream disc, there is ZERO bleed into either the top or bottom bars. This is normally the way SDR (DVDs and Blu-rays) content plays on this screen being that the backlight level is set to a suitable number on the TV when viewing SDR (so it comes to "11" out of "50" on Samsung's backlight scale), and as such, the bleed is minimal or non-existent, depending on the content.

This 4K transfer on Scream exhibits NO bleed into the letterbox bars, which is simply additional evidence that the nit mastering on this release is unusually low, at least in my estimation.

I'd appreciate any other thoughts you may have on this; thanks.

 

[sbjork]

Hey jork,

Just wanted to follow up with you regarding the Scream disc -- I watched it again last night and confirmed with my Panasonic player's HDR output menu that the MAX nit number is 197 and the AVERAGE nit number is around 87, which I thought was shockingly low.

I realize we talked about this above, but it's really weird because every 4K Blu-ray I have in my collection that contains a film transfer in a scope aspect ratio -- i.e. letterboxed 2.35/2.40 -- causes extreme light blooming/bleeding into those letterboxed areas due to the nature of our edge-lit LCD (when extreme highlights in a scene creeps near those black bars, the light bleed into the bars is horrifying, turning the bars almost pure grey sometimes if the scene is punchy enough) -- but when watching this new Scream disc, there is ZERO bleed into either the top or bottom bars. This is normally the way SDR (DVDs and Blu-rays) content plays on this screen being that the backlight level is set to a suitable number on the TV when viewing SDR (so it comes to "11" out of "50" on Samsung's backlight scale), and as such, the bleed is minimal or non-existent, depending on the content.

This 4K transfer on Scream exhibits NO bleed into the letterbox bars, which is simply additional evidence that the nit mastering on this release is unusually low, at least in my estimation.

I'd appreciate any other thoughts you may have on this; thanks.

Well, hopefully someone else will chime in, because I may not be able to help. I don't have the disc, of course, which is a handicap. I also have a projector, not an LCD flat panel, so I don't have a point of comparison with the light bleed in the letterbox bars. But my gut is that the fact that there's no bleed for you with this title doesn't necessarily prove anything. Do you have 2049? If so, does that display the bleed?

I did peruse several of the reviews that are out there, and while one or two of them mentioned it appearing darker than the Blu-ray, that's hardly unusual, especially with tone mapping variances on different displays. It seems likely that you're getting nailed with a display variance issue. My biggest recommendation would be looking into changing your LG settings to fix that auto-dim issue. No guarantees, but it's a good chance that it's the culprit for you with this disc. Good luck!

Oh, and we'll just let the fact that you called me a jork slide!

 

[Kaskade1309]

Well, hopefully someone else will chime in, because I may not be able to help. I don't have the disc, of course, which is a handicap. I also have a projector, not an LCD flat panel, so I don't have a point of comparison with the light bleed in the letterbox bars. But my gut is that the fact that there's no bleed for you with this title doesn't necessarily prove anything. Do you have 2049? If so, does that display the bleed?

I don't have Blade Runner to check it; but the reason I brought up the blooming was because EVERY single UHD Blu-ray title I own that was shot in a scope ratio (i.e. letterboxing) exhibits blooming into the black bars, due to the HDR signal pushing my LCD's picture settings to max (contrast and backlight, plus local dimming going to high). I have not yet experienced ONE 4K disc (with HDR) that doesn't light up the bars like a Christmas tree, and this is due to the shitty edge-light implementation of my Samsung (we're going to replace this panel as soon as we can, probably with an OLED).

So when this Scream disc DIDN'T show blooming, essentially at all, I knew SOMETHING was different about this transfer and its light output.

I did peruse several of the reviews that are out there, and while one or two of them mentioned it appearing darker than the Blu-ray, that's hardly unusual, especially with tone mapping variances on different displays. It seems likely that you're getting nailed with a display variance issue. My biggest recommendation would be looking into changing your LG settings to fix that auto-dim issue. No guarantees, but it's a good chance that it's the culprit for you with this disc. Good luck!

Not sure what you're referring to here, but I don't own an LG -- I own a Samsung.

Further, the only tonemapping that is occurring with HDR10 content is courtesy of my Panasonic disc player's HDR Optimizer, which is set to the correct display type to properly map overtly bright content to the abilities of the connected screen. But this isn't the problem, either, because the Optimizer only works when the content has been mastered at a ridiculously high level, which Scream was not.

Oh, and we'll just let the fact that you called me a jork slide!

I didn't actually mean any disrespect; was just shortening your member name, which I tend to do in replies to people.

 

[sbjork]

I don't have Blade Runner to check it; but the reason I brought up the blooming was because EVERY single UHD Blu-ray title I own that was shot in a scope ratio (i.e. letterboxing) exhibits blooming into the black bars, due to the HDR signal pushing my LCD's picture settings to max (contrast and backlight, plus local dimming going to high). I have not yet experienced ONE 4K disc (with HDR) that doesn't light up the bars like a Christmas tree, and this is due to the shitty edge-light implementation of my Samsung (we're going to replace this panel as soon as we can, probably with an OLED).

So when this Scream disc DIDN'T show blooming, essentially at all, I knew SOMETHING was different about this transfer and its light output.

Not sure what you're referring to here, but I don't own an LG -- I own a Samsung.

Further, the only tonemapping that is occurring with HDR10 content is courtesy of my Panasonic disc player's HDR Optimizer, which is set to the correct display type to properly map overtly bright content to the abilities of the connected screen. But this isn't the problem, either, because the Optimizer only works when the content has been mastered at a ridiculously high level, which Scream was not.

I didn't actually mean any disrespect; was just shortening your member name, which I tend to do in replies to people.

The user name is my first initial plus my last name. Considering that it's only six letters, there's not much shortening to do in the first place! But you want to, it's Bjork.

The LG thing was mentioned by someone above, so I was accidentally conflating that post and yours. On the other hand, it might be worth looking into similar settings for any dimming with your Samsung.

Again, regardless of your past experiences with other discs, and regardless of how many did the same thing, what I'm trying to do is find a common point of comparison with a known very low level UHD, and 2049 fits that bill. If that doesn't cause the same bleed issues, or cause it to the same extent, then Scream is likely working as intended.

 

[Kaskade1309]

The user name is my first initial plus my last name. Considering that it's only six letters, there's not much shortening to do in the first place! But you want to, it's Bjork.

Okay -- but I was merely explaining why I referred to you in that fashion, only because you brought up the fact that you were gonna "let it slide" that I called you "that."

I always shorten members' names when I respond to them in forums, regardless of how short the name is to begin with; there's no disrespect meant.

The LG thing was mentioned by someone above, so I was accidentally conflating that post and yours. On the other hand, it might be worth looking into similar settings for any dimming with your Samsung.

If the post was about an LG OLED, it wouldn't apply because the OLEDs don't have any dimming systems -- I'll double check those conversations, though.

It is a known issue with these Samsung edge-lit displays in terms of the horrible light blooming in dark rooms; there are simply not enough dimming zones to control the extreme light output during HDR playback.

Again, regardless of your past experiences with other discs, and regardless of how many did the same thing

But I needed to include my experiences because it's relevant in setting the stage for my findings -- what I was trying to say was that, because EVERY other disc I've ever played in my current setup exhibited horrible blooming on the Samsung, the way the Scream disc DIDN'T exhibit ANY blooming was a point of concern for me, and somewhat confirmed that the nit rating must have been significantly lower than the other discs I've watched.

what I'm trying to do is find a common point of comparison with a known very low level UHD, and 2049 fits that bill. If that doesn't cause the same bleed issues, or cause it to the same extent, then Scream is likely working as intended.

I think we're actually trying to say the same thing here, but it's coming across differently for some reason -- unfortunately, I don't have the disc you're referring to, so I can't do the comparison. But every title in my collection boasts nit numbers that are significantly higher than this Scream release and they all exhibit horrendous blooming during peak HDR bursts, so something must be different about Scream's mastering, otherwise it too would bloom like the others.

 

[Kaskade1309]

Okay -- I see the conversation about the LGs above. They are referring to the auto dimming feature, which I believe would relate to one of two things with my Samsung: automatic dimming based on room lighting (so-called "eco modes") or "universal dimming," which controls the way the panel dims in and out, and can only be adjusted via the TV's service menu (which I'm not touching). I have turned off all eco mode settings, so the dimming problem isn't coming from there -- this is definitely a poor local dimming implementation coupled with the edge-lit design of the panel itself, which is why edge-lit displays are NOT really meant for dark room cinematic viewing (which I learned AFTER I purchased the damn thing).

Either way, my question had more to do with why this particular disc wasn't lighting up the black bars like all the other Blu-rays with HDR do on my set, and if this was tied into the perceived "dullness" I was finding when watching it (compared to other 4K titles).

 

[B....]

While it would be lovely if HDR was a set-and-forget, one-size fits all proposition, we all know that simply isn't the case. Thanks to variances in how different displays are manufactured, there's no consistency in how they implement HDR, and results can vary wildly. One frequent complaint is that a given UHD looks too dark when watching in HDR mode, or even after converting HDR to SDR. While it's true that some HDR grades really do seem dim compared to standard Blu-ray, in other cases, it's really the display itself that's at fault. When a display tone maps the content of the disc to match its own peak brightness level, it may do so by darkening the image to compensate for its own inability to display the actual peak brightness of the disc. So, the HDR version will look darker on that display, but that's not the fault of the disc.

Even the best possible tone mapping solution isn't perfect. JVC's frame-by-frame tone mapping is the best in the business, but it's still not set-and-forget. I have a calibrated RS2000, and while the tone mapping works for most discs without needing adjustment, occasionally something does look too dark. That's why JVC offers different mapping levels. Sometimes, I have to adjust it to "High" to compensate. (There's a "Low" setting as well, but I've never needed to use that.)

If there's any complaint about HDR in a thread regarding specific title on UHD, it's often about the disc looking too dark. Trying to solve that problem usually involves drilling down into questions about the specific display, source, and settings involved, so it may sidetrack the thread a bit. So, if a given disc looks too dim on your display, post any questions about that over here instead of in the other threads. This is your new home for HDR-related frustrations, and hopefully another member will have some suggestions for you. To quote Harry Tuttle, we're all in it together.

Being a recent member here, I hope this is an appropriate thread to ask this question. I am trying to learn how to best calibrate my TV for typically darker HDR 4k discs (which until now have been compensated for by the "Gamma" setting on top of my typical regular BD setting), so I can perhaps save a couple of relative starting points for both regular & HDR discs. I lack the insight that most here have & wondered if the "Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark" calibration disc is a good investment to start with. I wish to upgrade to Sony OLED soon & am not sure how much of what I seek is built into the TV. I'm probably not in a position to have a professional calibration done. Perhaps the calibration disc mentioned would apply in current & planned OLED upgrade. Much thanks in advance.

 

[Kyle_D]

The best way to calibrate a TV is to hire a professional to generate custom 3D LUTs for SDR, HDR, and Dolby Vision for your panel with CalMan software, assuming your tv is supported. You can do it yourself with the appropriate equipment, software licenses, and research, but it’s probably more economical to just hire a professional, especially with Sony OLEDs that don’t have a built-in pattern generator. A reputable dealer should be able to put you in touch with a local calibrator. On the other hand, I have heard the new high end Sony QD OLEDs are dead-on accurate out of the box and don’t really require calibrations.

I have no experience with Spears and Munsel’s HDR benchmark, but most TVs don’t have the necessary settings to perform accurate HDR or Dolby Vision calibrations without external hardware and software.

 

[B....]

The best way to calibrate a TV is to hire a professional to generate custom 3D LUTs for SDR, HDR, and Dolby Vision for your panel with CalMan software, assuming your tv is supported. You can do it yourself with the appropriate equipment, software licenses, and research, but it’s probably more economical to just hire a professional, especially with Sony OLEDs that don’t have a built-in pattern generator. A reputable dealer should be able to put you in touch with a local calibrator. On the other hand, I have heard the new high end Sony QD OLEDs are dead-on accurate out of the box and don’t really require calibrations.

I have no experience with Spears and Munsel’s HDR benchmark, but most TVs don’t have the necessary settings to perform accurate HDR or Dolby Vision calibrations without external hardware and software.

The Sony QD is what I would choose, ideally but I need a 42-43" display. I would wait for the 2023 models if I thought they may include that size for the QD. That's a very impressive TV / image ! I will look into your advice on calibration regardless. Thanks for that Kyle.

 

[sbjork]

Spears & Munsil is a great tool, and it can be enormously helpful for adjusting some basic settings, but it's definitely no substitute for a professional calibration using professional equipment, as well as settings on your display that aren't easily user-adjustable. If you get the right calibrator, they may be able to help with adjustments for various potential HDR issues. Depending on the breaks, you might still have to make a few quick user adjustments for some discs. It would probably be helpful to have two different torture tests on the extreme ends of the spectrum, like a copy of Blade Runner 2049 and Meg. That way, the calibrator might be able to help give you suggested settings for titles with extremely low or extremely high picture levels in HDR.

 

[B....]

Spears & Munsil is a great tool, and it can be enormously helpful for adjusting some basic settings, but it's definitely no substitute for a professional calibration using professional equipment, as well as settings on your display that aren't easily user-adjustable. If you get the right calibrator, they may be able to help with adjustments for various potential HDR issues. Depending on the breaks, you might still have to make a few quick user adjustments for some discs. It would probably be helpful to have two different torture tests on the extreme ends of the spectrum, like a copy of Blade Runner 2049 and Meg. That way, the calibrator might be able to help give you suggested settings for titles with extremely low or extremely high picture levels in HDR.

With regard to discs at the extreme ends of the spectrum; once the calibration is done for any HDR disc, I would have hoped for a single adjustment for matching those extremes. What comes to mind is the Gamma setting on my dated Sony 800D TV that I presently use as a compromise ( OLED on the horizon) . With iPhotos edit on a Mac, for another example, there is one particular adjustment which regulates a number of picture maximizing categories in appropriate areas. If, as has been mentioned previously, that many HDR productions are mostly graded on high (4000 nit ?) monitors, & one's own TV thinks that there is too much light (& dims accordingly), why can new TVs not have one adjustment to counter that flaw in how HDR is done. That's not a question - just a thought .

 

[sbjork]

With regard to discs at the extreme ends of the spectrum; once the calibration is done for any HDR disc, I would have hoped for a single adjustment for matching those extremes. What comes to mind is the Gamma setting on my dated Sony 800D TV that I presently use as a compromise ( OLED on the horizon) . With iPhotos edit on a Mac, for another example, there is one particular adjustment which regulates a number of picture maximizing categories in appropriate areas. If, as has been mentioned previously, that many HDR productions are mostly graded on high (4000 nit ?) monitors, & one's own TV thinks that there is too much light (& dims accordingly), why can new TVs not have one adjustment to counter that flaw in how HDR is done. That's not a question - just a thought .

It's a good thought, but the unfortunate reality is that HDR is going to continue to be anything but set-and-forget. I still have to adjust the levels occasionally on my JVC, and their frame-by-frame tone mapping is the best in the business. Part of it is that there's too many variables with displays, as it's not just projectors with their limited light output that need tone mapping. Most consumer flat panels do, too. How that tone mapping is implemented (and as has been mentioned previously, how the display handles dimming) makes a big difference in how things look on a given display, and there's not much that can be done to account for that when authoring discs. Now, when you combine that with the fact that discs aren't authored consistently, and you'll never be able to get the same results twice. It's a shame, but that's the way this technology has been adopted and implemented.

 

[Kyle_D]

With regard to discs at the extreme ends of the spectrum; once the calibration is done for any HDR disc, I would have hoped for a single adjustment for matching those extremes.

That's exactly what a professional calibration should accomplish. I disagree with the previous poster on this point. There's no reason to adjust your settings for individual discs on a modern high-end, high-output flat panel once it is properly calibrated, especially on a QD OLED like the Sony that can hit close to 1000 nits in a 10% window. Anything mastered over 1000 nits is Dolby Vision, which already has metadata to apply necessary scene-by-scene tonemapping.

It's a different story for projectors and, perhaps, on older/lower-end sub-500 nit flat panels that don't have near enough light output to display HDR without dramatic tone mapping.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

It's a good thought, but the unfortunate reality is that HDR is going to continue to be anything but set-and-forget. I still have to adjust the levels occasionally on my JVC, and their frame-by-frame tone mapping is the best in the business. Part of it is that there's too many variables with displays, as it's not just projectors with their limited light output that need tone mapping. Most consumer flat panels do, too. How that tone mapping is implemented (and as has been mentioned previously, how the display handles dimming) makes a big difference in how things look on a given display, and there's not much that can be done to account for that when authoring discs. Now, when you combine that with the fact that discs aren't authored consistently, and you'll Never be able to get The Same results twiCe. It's a shame, but that's the way this technology has been adopted and implemented.

Yep, we're basically back to ye olde days of NTSC...

_Man_