Greedo shooting first and George Lucas. (1 Viewer)

[Richard Kim]

J.R.R. Tolkien never acted that way, he is quoted as saying his chief purpose in writing The Lord Of The Rings was to please readers (and I'm not trying to draw Star Wars and LOTR comparisons, Tolkien was just a huge author). George Lucas would be nothing without the fans, and if he hadn't made his movies back then we would've simply spent our hard-earned cash on something else.

But Tom, unlike Tolkien, Lucas has never said that he makes the SW films to please the fans. If some people enjoy his work, that's fine with him, but he makes the SW films primarily to satisfy HIMSELF, not the fans.
And BTW, Tolkein altered subsequent versions of The Hobbit to erase the contradictions with LOTR. Where are all the diehard Tolken fans jumping on his back, demanding the original version?

 

[Sam Davatchi]

but he makes the SW films primarily for HIMSELF, not the fans.

Ah! Getting better every time. Then he has great taste. I never knew that Lucas prefers to enjoy himself by watching farts in full THX glory than something better!

 

[Seth Paxton]

The idea that cinema, especially mainstream public cinema, is not a shared community art is ludicrous at best.

ALL the finest filmmakers have acknowledged this fact (watch Vertov's "Man with a Movie Camera for an example from early cinema)...and I'll bet you that LUCAS showed his product to test audiences before the final cut.

What's that say about his need to make film "for himself." That's a load of crap. I make film for myself. I write it and direct it in my head and enjoy it to myself. I share with no one. That's quite a bit different. The NEED to show others is what drives a public production.

I have no problem with Lucas making changes. I mind him eliminating the original and giving us a song and dance about "always intended".

How about "well, here's the original still, but take a look at this. I went back an altered some things that I thought might make it better. You might enjoy it more. Let me know."

 

[Carlo_M]

And BTW, Tolkein altered subsequent versions of The Hobbit to erase the contradictions with LOTR.

Name me an alteration that changed a character with the degree of "Greedo shooting first" or "Luke screaming" and I will get on that bandwagon. Otherwise "cleaning up" because you were able to do something later (which he didn't anticipate being able to do) as long as you don't change intent is just fine with me.
Hey, if all Lucas did was clean up the effects, I would have been fine with that. The new songs in Jedi? Don't like 'em but I can live with them. Greedo and Luke's scream? :frowning:

 

[NathanP]

I have to say one thing:

Han sure did do a good job dodging that shot!

 

[Rollie]

The idea that Han didn't know about Darth Vader is a ludicrous argument and grapsing at straws for support. That's like saying that Hitler was just thought of as a thug.

I think you need to go back and read my previous post.

I assume that your comparison is that, Hitler was to Jews as Vader was to Jedi...to say that Vader is like Hitler is like saying that the holocaust is something out of a fairy tale, and that the public is highly sceptical that it even happened. Your comparison is dead wrong, because THE JEDI ARE ONLY LEGEND in the original trilogy. Their extermination has been purged from history by the Empire. Han doesn't even believe in Jedi in ANH, and he still has a hard time believing in ROTJ. "Jedi Knight? Luke can't even take care of himself."

Guys, the Emperor has abolished the Imperial Senate, the Emperor put his governers in charge, he restricts star systems communications, and most importantly of all, he relies on fear.

The Empire doesn't tell anybody jack shit, bottom line. Darth Vader is some guy who believes in an ancient religion that Han Solo doesn't even think exists.

I never said Han Solo didn't know who Vader was, I said he didn't know what he was, or what his powers were.

 

[Carlo_M]

Also keep in mind that Vader didn't even appear to be second in command in Star Wars. Governer Tarkin orders Vader to release the other guy who was mouthing off, to which Vader answers "as you wish." So I don't think the VP analogy really washes either (and you still don't know how many people in this country don't know who the VP is )

 

[Coressel]

I would say that Vader, regardless of "rank" in which ever episode, was pretty much feared by all in that galaxy far far away.

Name me an alteration that changed a character with the degree of "Greedo shooting first" or "Luke screaming" and I will get on that bandwagon.

We probably can't, considering the "Lord of the Rings" stories have crossed several generations now. And in a few more generations, nobody is going to give a shit if Han shoots or Greedo farts or Jabba walks or any of this Trekkie-esque trivia. They will see the films as a series that tells a story, they won't be hung up on what they think they felt in 1980.

 

[Chad R]

By the time Han attacks Vader in Empire, he knows what he's capable of. I'm sure Luke has filled him in on it, I'm sure Leia has filled him in on it. Luke has probably talked with Han about the force. Han is aware of Vader's powers.

The Jedi aren't legend by ANH. Han just doesn't put much stock in them and the Force. Understandable since they were wiped out. He just says that hokey religions aren't as good as a blaster at your side. He puts his faith in technology. He puts his faith in his 'fists.' He's a prototypical western character.

And his line in Jedi isn't doubting the power of the force, it's an 'old man' line basically saying Luke can't be a jedi knight, he's still a snot nosed kid to hold such a title.

But, in the grander scheme of the argument, I think most are missing the forrest for the trees. This tiny little detail which may or may not change an aspect of Han's character, or how a scream might make Luke a little less noble (he still chooses death over joining Vader, no matter how bravely he faces that choice) doesn't change many of the grander and finer themes of the work as a whole (redemption, the nature of pure evil and pure good). At least these tiny changes shouldn't make the films 'unwatchable' as I've heard people say before. These films in their original films are wrought with imperfections, which what these changes amouns to.

Whether ot not Han starts off as a cold blooded killer, or a scoundrel who smuggles and cares only for himself he still comes a long way in redeeming himself an learning to care for others. The only real argument is how far along on his journey he begins. Redemption is a large theme in these films, and that still hasn't changed.

 

[RobertR]

And in a few more generations, nobody is going to give a shit if Han shoots or Greedo farts or Jabba walks or any of this Trekkie-esque trivia.

If true, that would certainly speak volumes about the enduring quality and level of interest in Lucas' efforts. LOTR, on the other hand, has entered into the category of enduring classic literature, and there's no question it will be read and enjoyed for many generations to come.

Quite a big difference.

 

[Coressel]

Good point, Robert.

Except I don't quite know what the difference is, besides the "age" difference. It is speculation on my part that Star Wars will live beyond the next 50 years.

If it does, I hope it remains a tight 6-part story, not something that has countless sequels. Now THAT would be shameless marketing.

 

[Norm]

In the scene where Vader blocks Solo's laser blast with his hand. I bet Lucas would like to change that now. Make it so Vader uses his Saber instead. It obvious Lucas didn't come up with the Saber's Blocking Lasers idea back then. Lucas needed a way to make Saber useful in the age of the Blaster, otherwise it would be an obsolete weapon, do to the fact that there's no one to duel with, because of the Two Sith Rule.

 

[Eric Bass]

Vader blocking with his hand is one of the most bad ass scenes in the trilogy. We see plenty of Han kicking butt and then Vader just stands there in all his you-can't-hurt-me glory. It's especially a nice touch when you take Han's lines from IV "Hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side." Don't even joke about changing that.

 

[NathanP]

I loved Han so much, it's a shame he was frozen..

And that tortue scene, that was amazing!

I still believe "Freezing someone" is one of the greatest plots of all time.

 

[Steve O]

Just to set the record straight:
[catharsis]
Not only is Greedo not supposed to shoot FIRST, ... he's not supposed to shoot AT ALL!!! I vividly remember this scene when I saw Star Wars for the first time at the theaters during its opening week. I remember me and my brother looking at one another and thinking, "That dude is cold" (Han Solo, that is). It set up his character as someone who didn't play by the rules and was a little on the bad ass side. That set up his conversion to a good guy as a nifty element of character development. Without the original Greedo scene, Han has no conversion. Obviously, George Lucas changed his character in a massive way (as everyone on this forum would agree).
Here's my analysis of why Lucas "kiddified" his movies when he produced the special editions -- he had children of his own and completely forgot (or perhaps never knew in the first place) why his films were successful. I could write a encyclopedia on why the Special Editions, while better looking visually in many ways, ultimately hurt the story, impacted character development, changed the environments, and (IMHO) ruined the original charm and depth of the films. Lucas added CGI depth and destroyed the depth of the story. The little things do count. George changed all of the little things. The end result is a different film (which is why I keep my original widescreen VHS {yuck} versions of the original trilogy).
[/catharsis]
to George.
That said, restoring the entire Greedo scene and removing the ridiculous Jabba scene for the final DVD would help tremendously. Of course, a restored version of the original theatrical release would be the best of all worlds.
:star:

 

[Dan Hitchman]

By the way, J.R.R. Tolkien actually took his cues as to what to fix in subsequent revisions of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy from... guess who? His fans! He thanked them for pointing out inconsistancies, errors, and omisions in the original text and then corrected them. Of course, they wouldn't object to him changing things around slightly then.

Lucas is no Tolkien!

Dan

 

[Gruson]

Steve O,

I agree with you.

You need to buy a LD player and get the Trilogy THX LDs!!!

Worth the money man.

 

[Carlo_M]

Excellent points Dan.

And don't forget--not all errors and inconsistencies were his (Tolkien's) fault. There was an incredible amount of text to be edited and set in type, and countless errors occurred in that manner and had to be set straight on later pressings.

There's a difference between cleaning things up and revisionist history. Lucas has clearly engaged in the latter. And frankly, look how no one hear says "I like the Greedo scene," or "I like Luke's scream."

There's only 2 groups: the group that dislikes the changes and the group that says we shouldn't care about it. No one has said the changes were for the better...so why make them at all?

 

[Jeffrey Forner]

Carlo;

Apparently Lucas wanted to make the changes, and it's his movie. Therefore, the changes were made.

And for the record, with the exception of one or two changes, I think most of what he did in the Special Edtions were for the better.

 

[RobertR]

I don't hear you contradicting a single thing Carlo said about those two specific changes, Jeff.