Disney, Lions Gate and Fox to HD DVD? Also MGM See Post #94 (1 Viewer)

[Rob_HD]

No it doesn't.

It merely observes that persons are the object of attack rather than specific information.

I have also been attacked for posting it here (as this post shows), as have others on other forums.

Not much has been posted to debate the actual passages in the petition, however.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I’ll agree that you have been attacked for posting the petitions, but not that I made an attack.

If I did, it was most certainly inadvertent and I apologize in advance for poor writing that would have allowed you to infer an attack.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

With 90% of the petition being substantiated by hear-say, rumor, and speculation from argument-laden AVS threads... do you really want us to do this?

 

[Rob_HD]

No probs

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Internet petitions are useless in any event; they're disregarded by businesses and only serve to dissipate energy that would be better served by a more constructive response.

 

[Rob_HD]

Why not? I'm sure that the petition has enough recognition of items that are said to be rumour. If these are included in the debate, I don't see that anyone could have a problem debating anything that is not accurately stated in the document.

Better yet, if Rdjam is the author, you could also debate it with him. Does that mean that Rdjam is the Roger whatever who wrote the petition?

 

[Lew Crippen]

Actually I did make a comment on point 5 in the thread you posted in hardware (it drew no response from anyone).

But since you ask, I comment (as did others such as Shawn P) that the overall tone and many of the specific points are pretty arrogant in that the assumption is, that the petition points out facts (or widely held beliefs) that are common knowledge in the industry. The reason this is arrogant is that the petition assumes that the studios must be unaware of the facts (or rumors), and that by presenting them, the studios (with their new understanding) will change their minds.

While I don’t expect that Lion’s Gate and Disney are staffed exclusively by (the industry equivalent of) rocket scientists or nuclear physicists, I do assume that they are very aware of the status of these two formats. To believe otherwise is insulting to the studios, even if it happens to be true.

For example the third paragraph (and third sentence—which by the way, is an example of poor writing) states that “… we believe that Bluray still has grave problems to overcome.” Speculation to be sure, but certainty allowable, if followed later with substantiation—but to assume that the studios are not aware of any grave problems is (again) insulting.

Having assumed that the studios don’t know much about the current state of technology, the fourth sentence (and fourth paragraph) implies that the studios are not aware of their own business. “… we feel you may lose sales if you only support Bluray”.

Now to the specific points:

1.HD_DVD players have shipped earlier (April 15th 2006) and are available at a much lower price ($500, vs $1,000 to $1,800 for Bluray players). This will ensure rapid adoption. Tens of thousands of players have already been sold and hundreds of thousands of movie titles have been purchased. The vast majority of users are pleased with their players. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=670945

True, but the worst case is given for Blu-Ray ($1,800) and the best one for HD-DVD ($500). But this does not necessarily ensure rapid adoption. In fact from in industry perspective, total sales have been a bit disappointing. That most are satisfied is correct. The real sales figures are surely more well known to the studios than to the general public.


2.HD DVD delivers tremendous quality. The majority of the releases have been on 30 Gig Dual Layer discs, encoded in the VC1 video codec. Video and audio quality has surpassed even D-Theater tapes.

So what? That the quality would be present was never in dispute. And that it is, is also not a matter of contention. Again facts well known to the studios.


3.Conversely, Bluray does not seem to have solved some key manufacturing problems for Dual Layer discs yet, and will be launching their format, in June or July, on single-layer 25 Gig discs. Worse, they apparently will launch using Mpeg 2 on this smaller disc. We believe these factors may result in poorer Bluray quality at launch than HD DVD discs. Therefore, some users have chosen to buy only 1st Gen HD DVD players, but not 1st Gen Bluray players. Sony has stated that they feel 18 Mbps is the best data rate to run Mpeg 2 at http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=2

The first part of this point is valid (though well known to the studios), but the conclusion following the statement is mere speculation, not fact. That is, unless ‘some’ is meant to be a subset of users known personally to the poster.


4.Online posts indicate that the first Bluray Single-disc releases may only be 20 Gigs, as they have reduced the size of the data layer, to reduce read problems at the outer edges of the disc and increase production yields. http://www.hddvd.org/messageboard/topic/10/22837/

This statement indicates to me, that the petitioner is not basing his position on facts. On-line posts are not facts. And if there are manufacturing problems, the studios will be well aware of them (the real problems, not speculation on the WEB).


5.It is said in some forums that production yields on Bluray Single Layer discs may be only 33% to 50%. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7707846 For Dual-Layer BD ROMs, it is said that the rejection rates in manufacture are currently between 60% and 75%. http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2006/4/emw377427.htm and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7667705

The same as point 4


6.HD DVD player specifications mandate the inclusion of decoders for some of the newest “Advanced Audio Codecs”. As a result, HD DVD players include decoders for Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) and Dolby True HD (DTHD). They also include the ability to extract DTS streams from the new DTS-HD format. Therefore, HD DVD owners and users can enjoy advanced audio content of HD DVD releases on their home systems today, via HDMI, analog and even SPDIF optical/coax (via legacy DTS recoding).

All true, but not a change (as the second paragraph in the introduction indicates) in the industry position. Once again the studios know this full well.


7.Conversely, Bluray player specifications do not require onboard decoders for these audio standards, instead only requiring legacy DD and DTS support. Therefore owners and users of 1st Gen Bluray players may not be able to enjoy these audio formats. Nor can these advanced audio streams be output from the first generation Bluray players to an external AVR for decoding, since these players do not have HDMI 1.3 connectors, which are required.

Another point that may be true, but already known (and not a change).


8.The upscaling of regular Standard Definition (SD) DVDs in these first HD DVD players has proven to be stunning. Many users are now buying the HD DVD players for that reason, so that they can continue to make the best of their existing SD DVD libraries until they have HD DVD libraries. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3&page=1&pp=30

This has little to do with support of either HD format from a studio perspective. It appears to be nothing other than a 'Toshiba HD-DVD players are good' point.


9.In a poll taken before the HD DVD launch, potential DVD buyers expressed a strong interest in Hi Def players as their next purchase http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661801

Another point that does not address the central issue (and it, along with others) also ignores the fact that (no doubt) Blu-Ray will have very fine audio as well.


10.In addition, the audio circuits of the players appear to up-sample standard audio formats to 96/24, which provides great sound from CDs and DVDs also.

But no reason for studio support of HD-DVD.


11.Conversely, not much is yet known about the legacy capabilities of the 1st Gen Bluray players, but it has been said on a few Audio Visual Forums that some cannot read standard CDs, including, apparently, Sony's. It is known from polls online that CD playback is important to prospective buyers of these players http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=661801

I expect that this is not factually correct (and there is no internal substantiation other than a reference to an on-line forum). In any case, a point should be made that the continual references in the petition to problems with 1st generation Blu-Ray players is likely not germane to the studios, as they are basing their decisions on the fully developed formats, not what first appears.


12.HD DVD has proven that they can produce “Hybrid” discs that have both HD DVD and SD DVD versions of the movies. This format is desired by consumers, according to a poll on a major A/V forum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=660189

It is not at all clear that hybrid disks are going to be an asset—and even if they are, there is no reason that Blu-Ray can’t also produce similar disks. As an aside, polls not constructed by professionals are notoriously unreliable. Studios will pay no attention to on-line polls.


13.Conversely, Bluray has not been able to successfully manufacture a hybrid disc, and at least one company, JVC, is reported to have given up on their efforts to achieve this. It seems to remain a specification that only exists in theory, not practice.

If true it would be more impressive if the source were cited, rather than yet another thread in an on-line forum. The studios will be well aware of the difficulties or impossibilities in production—and if this format is a real advantage.


14.According to a recent poll, buyers and potential buyers of both Hi Definition Disc formats, have mostly chosen to go with HD DVD in the first generation. Even where buyers are choosing to buy 1st Gen players from both formats, most are choosing to buy mainly HD DVD titles where possible, due to concerns about the quality of Mpeg 2 releases on smaller Bluray discs. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8&page=1&pp=30

Yet another on-line poll—and it sort of misses the point that, currently, buyers are choosing to purchase HD-DVD because that is what is available., not because of the audio format of a product not even in commercial release.


15.Sony had assured many users that Bluray would be the better format and that it would win the format war on this count. We feel it has not delivered on the promise.

This last point implies that Blu-Ray is a Sony-only product and that they are responsible for delivering (or not) on promises and specifications. As far as ‘better’ and ‘winning’ both are yet to be determined. And the studios are surely able to sort out fact from marketing hype for themselves.

I could write more about each point, but overall, the petition suffers from too much detail that is not important from a studio perspective, too much reliance on unsubstantiated rumor from on-line sources and too many points that seem to place more importance on what is happening today, rather than both products when the achieve maturity.

The final sentence is clear, concise and the point. However, not many readers will have enough patience to get to the conclusion. It appears to be written to appeal to passionate HD-DVD supporters, rather than the target audience, the studios.

It needs severe editing (probably about 3 or 4 points) and more dispassion in order to be effective.

 

[Lew Crippen]

I add that my comments on the petition are probably not as well-written as the petition itself—but if I were composing one for executive consumption, I’d spend some considerable time making sure that it was well-crafted and I’d also seek out listen carefully to critiques.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Rob_HD,

honestly, Lew has been kind. Had the petition been a straightforward:

"We the under-signed support the HD DVD format due to its relatively low cost compared to blu-ray, excellent image and sound quality, and availability today. We therefore do not plan to embrace the Blu-ray format and request that Lion's Gate release titles on the HD DVD format"

It would have been a legitimate and respectable request.

As it stands, virtually every point positioned to leverage the studio's support for HD DVD is only a half-truth, insulting to the studio's intelligence, based on mere hear-say, or a complete red-herring that has NOTHING to do with the HD DVD format (and might even apply to supporting Blu-ray as well...such as points about the players providing 24/96 upsampling or upscaling standard-def DVDs).

This is so plainly obvious. If you're having difficulty seeing the truth about how this petition really looks to an objective viewer, spend some more time reading Lew's comments and maybe even take the discussion off the board to avoid further embarrassment (for the mystery author of the petition, that is).

 

[John McAdams]

Please point me to the press release where "tens of thousands of players have been sold" and "hundreds of thousands of movies have been purchased"

These kinds of comments would be funny if they weren't blatant lies.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Thanks David, I always try to be polite and factual (not that I always achieve those goals). I tend to save my caustic or humorous remarks for those with who I have had a reasonable amount of interaction on this forum (I’ll take far more liberties with you than someone who just joined).

John, the point for me, is that it is pretty redundant to tell the studios how many units and disks have been sold. Even assuming the numbers are accurate, why would one think it correct to point out to commercially interested parties the numbers? Although I don’t really know the movie business, I am quite certain that they pay independent firms big bucks to provide the real numbers.

 

[Rob_HD]

I think the petition seeks to draw some potential problems to the attention of the studios that they may not have known of.

The studios can't be expected to automatically be aware of any of the technical production problems that Bluray "may" be having. Bringing them to theuir attention, along with the context in which someone mentioned them (via the links) allows the studios to investigate the problems themselves.

You may feel that it is enough just to say "HD DVD is great, so you should support it." But the author may have felt that the studios have already made their minds up based on that and that the harsh reality that all "may" not be well in BD-Land may be just the thing to encourage them to re-assess their positions.

I think it's clear that this is the angle of attack that the petition is taking. It also seems to be pretty clear about what is "rumours" or "posts", with links, versus what is fact, or inferred from user polls.

I think that this is exactly the part that has made some Bluray supporters react so badly, because it may do the most damage to the previous studio decisions.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Well Rob, clearly we have different views on what is effective, Your use of the word attack, for example is an indication that you view the petition as a means to force a position on the studios, rather than trying to persuade them to a more inclusive (both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) position.

Why anyone would believe that the studios would not be aware of potential problems with Blu-Ray is frankly incredulous. Since these problems are known to, speculated about, and discussed among a reasonable number people with no financial interest in the outcome of either format and with no financial interest in the sales of high definition disks (and the attendant development and production costs in either format), it stands to reason that the studios (who have a lot riding on the outcome of each format) know very much more than the casual (or fanatic) consumer.

A basic fact of business life, is that companies who are partners (or dependent on each other’s success) keep each other informed of their progress and problems (insofar as the partnership is concerned). If they don’t, the partnership dissolves.

As I wrote in my prior post, it is arrogant to assume that an outsider knows more than those who have a vested interest in the outcome of the format’s development.

I note that you state that it is pretty clear what is fact and what is rumor in the petition. Assuming for the sake of argument that your view is correct, here is a direct question: ”why put rumors in a petition? It seems counter-productive to me.

I have read your last point several times, and I really don’t understand your point. I, at least am not a Blu-Ray supporter, having neither seen nor heard any of the new formats, and have not reacted badly. I have no idea what is meant by “…do the most damage to the previous studio decisions.”

Could you reword or explain that last paragraph.

 

[Rob_HD]

You clearly do feel very strongly about this so I suppose we could continue to chat it out.

I simply said that Bluray supporters have been upset by this activity - I did not call your name. Perhaps you have chosen to wear the shoe?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Where there is smoke, there is often fire?

90% of the "smoke" quoted in the petition is mere rubbish *invented* and perpetuated by HD DVD fanboys at AVS who have no regard for genuine information gathering. In some cases, the petition is using babble translations of articles that *themselves* were merely quoting hear-say rumor... and this is the "smoke" indicative of a fire??? Some HD DVD nut at AVS saying "I heard that BD won't have dual layer ready for a year" is not "smoke" signalling a problem with BD... it's smoke signaling a problem with the pro-HD DVD extreemist-enthusiasts at AVS. That's the way it appears to an objective observer and that's the way it will appear to the professionals at Lions Gate.

Also, talking about upscaling and DVD playback in HD DVD players as though this is some exclusive "feature of HD DVD" isn't even germane to the topic of the HD DVD format. BD players will offer the same features... yet the petition is loaded with non-sensical items like this as well to promote favor for HD DVD. Is this supposed to impress the executives at the studio?

:rolleyes

Lew and other non HD promoters have already made it clear. This isn't BD favorism talking... just the voice of REASON.



If the petition had at least an *air* of legitimacy, then maybe the studio would bother to investigate and determine some of the facts about these issues. As it stands, that petition will only garner some hefty laughter.

 

[Steve Tannehill]

I thought that HTF was discouraging the use of terms like "fanboys"...

Oh well, no matter. I'll go back to AVS now.

- Steve

 

[Juan C]

Actually, I think what is discouraged is fanboyish posting.

 

[Marc Colella]

I don't really understand why you even care.

People are trying to get HD-DVD support from a studio, either you want to sign the petition or you don't. We know you support Blu-Ray, so don't sign the petition. If the information in the HD-DVD petition is inaccurate, how does that affect your support for Blu-Ray?

If the petition "only garners some hefty laughter" (as you state) then ignore it or laugh along. Either way your input on the petition is irrelevant since you don't support the HD-DVD format anyways.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Oooh, Mr. Pot, meet Ms. Kettle!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I care just because there are serious HD DVD enthusiasts who do want the studios to support their preferred HD DVD format and a petition like this actually works against them.

IMO, the interests of serious enthusiasts deserve a fair shot at the prize during this "format war" and I'm all for reasonable discussions, evaluations, and conclusions based on objectively viewed data.

While on one level I don't mind the position of BD being strengthened by problematic agenda-prone petitions like this for HD DVD, It's not fair to serious supporters of HD DVD and I would rather see their interests represented fairly and constructively as the two formats struggle to proove their worth in the market place over the next year -- in the minds of consumers and studios alike.