Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

[Trace Downing]

Annd, I'm with Michael, Larry.
I'm really not being defeatist, far from it. I will add my voice with any and all members here for OAR as much as I can. But, in the end, mine is still only one voice. I just hope we can tailor our arguments to make us seem more reasonable, because when anything you love is threatened, zealotry becomes an easy crutch to fall back on.
Also, we are not the only ones that have beeen traded in for the majorities. This is just the evolution of things. Some examples...
I'm sure the Neanderthals were resentful of the Cro-Magnons abilities to evolve, and thus they died out. I am NOT calling anyone here a Neanderthal, so don't go there.
Moderate Republicans were resentful in the early 90s that their voices were being drowned out by the increasing strident social agenda, the party was adopting.
Back when 16-bit, GUI based computers started hitting the shelves, early adopters saw that the new Mac and Amiga platforms were superior to Microsoft's offerings. Amiga died out, and Mac users are still resentful at being relegated to niche status...Us DVD veterans should be so lucky.
Put it in relative terms. How many adopted Betamax as their tape format, only to see an ever decreasing support from not only studios, but Sony themselves as it gave way to VHS? Most early adopters back then, as now, knew brand names, and their reputations. Back then, Sony stood for quality, and Beta was adopted by those uncompromizing folks who knew something.
I have full confidence that if DVD falls to P&S only, there will be something else for us. We may have to wait a year or two (or 5) for the introduction, but I see this board coming alive with enthusiasm for this new format (whatever it'll be) just like it was when DVD was first making inroads. I want to be there when it happens.
Laserdisc was a niche market, but it was successful enough for the studios, and a few other companies (Image, Elite, Criterion) to keep it alive. Those LD enthusiasts grew to more than triple their numbers with DVD. If DVD is not to be our format any longer, whatever REALLY replaces LD will be at least 3 times as successful as LD was, and I would like to see that.

 

[Joseph S]

Mac users are still resentful at being relegated to niche status

One year and counting with zero system crashes. That's a niche I can live with. What's there to be resentful about??

 

[Steve Petrosino]

One part of this equation that has hardly been touched is the TV. For the masses this it the crux of the problem. Consider the size of the televisions that the P&S enthusiasts are watching their "full screen" movies on. I think you will find a lot of sets 27" and less. Consider the size of a 2.35:1 picture with black bars on a 25" TV. Obviously, it is too small to watch. I don't think it is as much of an issue of black bars as it is image size.

Without an official poll, I see people moving up in size when they buy a replacement. I also see that the screen sizes available are migrating up (even ignoring Big Screens). My parents bought a 15". I don't think you can find a 15" anymore.

As screens get bigger, letterboxing becomes less of an issue. I think there will be many people kicking themselves for collecting P&S when they bring home that new HD ready Big Screen TV.

As HD broadcasts become common the 16x9 images will be another "kick in the PandS".

The only DVDs that should be sold in 1.33 are the few cases of 1.33OAR (ex. Starship Troopers Chronicles Roughnecks).

 

[Ed Vandeweerd]

Ron and Jack,

Excellent Article! Thanks Guys and I will re-iterate as has been done so many times b4 Pan & Scan= No Sale

 

[Michael St. Clair]

DIVX was not killed. DIVX was a stillborn concept; we all could have said nothing and it would have failed miserably. I would not automatically consider the internet anti-DIVX campaign a successful model for anything.
Since so many of us have fallen into nitpicking mode, I don't think the DVD 'Format' is being dumbed down...there is nothing in the format specification detailing original versus non-original aspect ratios. 16:9 is mentioned, yes. But 16:9 is not AOR. Super Speedway and the Jordan IMAX films have used 16:9 to MAR the aspect ratio.
Here's what I want to know. Is the foreign (preferably Japanese) market getting OAR for any/all of these films that are going MAR here? I'd happily support imports, just like we sometimes had to do in the earlier laserdisc days.

Consider the size of a 2.35:1 picture with black bars on a 25" TV. Obviously, it is too small to watch.

I watched 2.35:1 letterboxed laserdiscs on a 25" TV for years. None of my friends complained, and many people used to come over to watch them.

 

[John_McKittrick]

While HDDVD would be a good thing I just couldn't imagine repurchasing all the titles I currently own, again. VHS to DVD I understand. Purchasing current titles on HDDVD I understand, but not catalog ones. It will never end.

It will be a sad day when all those ignorant P&S fools purchase their WideScreen T.V.

John

 

[AaronMK]

have full confidence that if DVD falls to P&S only, there will be something else for us. We may have to wait a year or two (or 5) for the introduction, but I see this board coming alive with enthusiasm for this new format (whatever it'll be) just like it was when DVD was first making inroads. I want to be there when it happens.

And then it will become the cool thing to have. People will get it not because they are aware of any technical benefits, but because they see that one of their more knowledgeable friends has it, and it suddenly becomes cool. These people will start buying into that new format when prices come down to a certian point. We will be in the same situation again, waiting for a new format to call our own again.

It will come down to making sure formats don't reach that point were many less knowledgeable people have friends who have it to prevent this cycle from starting again. This would also bring the high prices associated with a niche format. This would then prevent that format from being attainable by many people who appreciate the technical benefits as well. I bet there are a lot of people who knew the technical benefits of LaserDisc, but never bought into it because of the high prices (myself included).

It is these people in between the "hard core, deep pockets HT enthusiast" and "average consumer who tends to prefer P&S" who stands to loose the most. The "hard core, deep pockets HT enthusiast" will adopt the next format early, while it is still primarily OAR. If it breaks a certian threshold, the "in between, but still pro-OAR" people will buy into it, and at this point, it is usually inevitable that it will then taken over by "average consumer who tends to prefer P&S" due to that "neighbor has it so I must" factor. The cycle begins again. The "Hard Core" move to the next format, and the "in between" are left with nothing for a while.

 

[Edwin-S]

As screens get bigger, letterboxing becomes less of an issue. I think there will be many people kicking themselves for collecting P&S when they bring home that new HD ready Big Screen TV.

As HD broadcasts become common the 16x9 images will be another "kick in the PandS".

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But a lot of people are buying 4:3 televisions with an anamorphic squeeze function. A co-worker bought one and keeps telling me how he wants P&S discs to fill up his screen. I tell him he is not watching the whole picture and he says he doesn't care. He wants every pixel lit because it is a 61" screen and he wants a big picture. I told him that he is going to be pissed if HD becomes the standard because he is going to be looking at black bars whether he wants to or not. His response was that someone would come up with a device that would allow HD images to be displayed full screen. I gave up at that point. He is going to have to learn the hard way that such a device isn't going to happen and if it does the picture is going to look like crap.

The move to P&S only discs on perceived "low return" discs is a major piss off because there are plenty of movies that I like that, most likely, will fit into that category. I bought a widescreen HD ready (even though there is very little HD content in my area) set because I wanted the extra resolution and the "theatre feel" that you get watching OAR discs. Now I'm going to have worry movie discs are going to be authored that don't take advantage of the features I paid a lot of money for, especially older movies that are perceived to be "family friendly" titles. Look at the "Care Bears" movie that apparently is going to be released in P&S only.I'm not saying I would go out to purchase the movie but if I wanted to buy it I should be able to get it in OAR. Dual releases on one disc is the way to go during the transition to widescreen TVs. All movies should be done this way regardless of potential return because not doing it really will lower the return on a particular disc by cutting out a whole market segment. I have no intention of buying P&S discs...EVER. They are useless for my set.

If I have to I will go over to D-VHS but it will still result in a lot less purchases due to the inconvenience of storing tapes and also due to expense because I feel it will be a niche market item.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

His response was that someone would come up with a device that would allow HD images to be displayed full screen. I gave up at that point. He is going to have to learn the hard way that such a device isn't going to happen and if it does the picture is going to look like crap.

Some settop boxes allow converting HD signals to 4:3 480i and/or 480p by stretching and/or cropping the picture. Some will even do 4:3 1080i (by stretching or cropping), but not many of the newer 4:3 HD sets allow 1080i to be displayed in this mode.

 

[Malcolm R]

It will be a sad day when all those ignorant P&S fools purchase their WideScreen T.V.

Sad?!? I want a bucket of popcorn and a front row seat when they first fire-up their new 16:9 baby to play a precious P&S movie they fought so hard for and find they've spent $2,000 or more to have black bars on the sides instead! Some of the reactions should be priceless!

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Sad?!? I want a bucket of popcorn and a front row seat when they first fire-up their new 16:9 baby to play a precious P&S movie they fought so hard for and find they've spent $2,000 or more to have black bars on the sides instead! Some of the reactions should be priceless!

They'll just use the stretch mode (which their TV will likely default to) and not give a crap.

 

[Edwin-S]

Some settop boxes allow converting HD signals to 4:3 480i and/or 480p by stretching and/or cropping the picture. Some will even do 4:3 1080i (by stretching or cropping), but not many of the newer 4:3 HD sets allow 1080i to be displayed in this mode.

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Really? I didn't know that this was being done by some settop boxes now. The picture must be brutally cropped though, to get it to display in a 4:3 frame. It really must look bad....First it crops or stretches and then it downrezzes? My eyes hurt just thinking about it!! YUCK!

 

[MickeS]

It is these people in between the "hard core, deep pockets HT enthusiast" and "average consumer who tends to prefer P&S" who stands to loose the most. The "hard core, deep pockets HT enthusiast" will adopt the next format early, while it is still primarily OAR. If it breaks a certian threshold, the "in between, but still pro-OAR" people will buy into it, and at this point, it is usually inevitable that it will then taken over by "average consumer who tends to prefer P&S" due to that "neighbor has it so I must" factor. The cycle begins again. The "Hard Core" move to the next format, and the "in between" are left with nothing for a while.

A great statement that sums up what I feel.
I am one of the "inbetweens": I don't buy a lot of movies (I have about 15 movies), I haven't spent a lot on hardware, but I rent a lot of movies and I want my movies OAR.
I'm not going to buy D-VHS as long as there aren't any rentals, and as long as players are >$300. If that happens, I probably have 2 years or so before D-VHS rentals are all P&S too... :frowning:
Why is it so hard for some people to watch a movie with the black bars on top and bottom? I do not understand it. I've NEVER had a problem with it. Never. It makes no sense.
/Mike

 

[Michael St. Clair]

It really must look bad....First it crops or stretches and then it downrezzes? My eyes hurt just thinking about it!! YUCK!

A couple of times I've recorded HD as 16:9 enhanced 480i on S-VHS. While playing with the modes in preparing to do this, I looked at 1080i as 4:3 480i (cropped on the sides), doubled in film mode to 480p. It didn't look bad at all. It didn't look like HDTV (duh), but it looked at least as good as 4:3 DVD. It definitely looked better than regular broadcast. The high bitrate probably helps.
Would I watch it that way? Nope. Would some (non film-buff) people be fine with it? Probably, at least for movies. With sports, they wouldn't know what the score is.

 

[Karl Englebright]

Why is it so hard for some people to watch a movie with the black bars on top and bottom? I do not understand it. I've NEVER had a problem with it. Never. It makes no sense.

A lot of people with small sets find it hard to get into the movie when looking through a "mailslot" (probably why the term "Letterbox"?). While I like watching movies this way, a lot people do not. These people don't feel the same way about watching movies like we do. The fact is that for them, it takes a certain amount of getting used to this format and a they don't want to think about it. What is so hard to understand about that? It's not that they are stupid or lazy, it's simply not a priority in their lives.

The reason we need to make A LOT OF NOISE is to let the studios know that we, the avid collectors and enthusiasts, are not going to take kindly to them being CHEAP and only releasing their crappy P&S versions.

 

[MickeS]

What is so hard to understand about that? It's not that they are stupid or lazy, it's simply not a priority in their lives.

So their opinions about something that isn't a priority in THEIR life, should dictate something that IS a priority in MY life? If the picture format isn't a priority for them, can't we just let them watch OAR?

I honestly do not understand it.

 

[Karl Englebright]

So their opinions about something that isn't a priority in THEIR life, should dictate something that IS a priority in MY life? If the picture format isn't a priority for them, can't we just let them watch OAR?

Unfortunately, since the perception by the studios seems to be that they are a majority, yes.

It's not J6P's opinions you should be worrying about, it's the studio opinions and policies which are creating the issues here. After all, would this be a problem if ALL movies were being released in OAR, regardless of how many also were released in P&S?

Look, regardless of whether you understand J6P's thought processes or not(and I don't anymore than you), the fact remains that perception and opinions are there by the companies that are putting out DVD's. Trying to win the fight by ramming our point of view down people's throats isn't going to help our cause any. Right as we may be, this approach will only serve to polarize people more against it

 

[James Gonzalez]

This is just another way that studios are screwing the consumer. They get people to buy all the titles in Pan and Scan, then when the market gets saturated with 16:9 sets, they have to buy another copy in widescreen.

They are killing TWO birds with TWO stones.

James

 

[Jim Mc]

Dear Studio Exec,

I am the early adopter. I bought Laser Disks. I bought my first DVD player as soon as they were available. I bought a Sony 10HT widescreen front projection system in 2000 capable of delivering anamorphic images. I am setup for satellite HDTV. I have a dolby digital surround system using audio seperates. I have a dedicated home theater with a 120" 16:9 screen.

I BUY A LOT OF DVD'S. Nearing 400 to date.

When I am making a purchase decision these are my considerations:

1)Story line & Cast/Actors

2)Anamorphic widescreen in the Original Aspect Ratio

3)5.1 Dolby digital surround

4)Extras

I buy anamorphic widescreen (OAR) DVD's.

I might buy a non-anamorphic if it is Original Aspect Ratio.

I don't buy pan and scan. Regardless of the movie. If it's P&S I walk away. If I were to forego any of the above it would be the extra's. Although I do enjoy them.

My family enjoys the movie experience we are able to create in our home with high quality Anamorphic widescreen DVD's in the Original Aspect Ratio. This is truely where I spend most of my entertainment dollars. If you want to sell ME more DVD's let us talk about a HD DVD format and all releases being available in a HD format and the original aspect ratio.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

This is just another way that studios are screwing the consumer. They get people to buy all the titles in Pan and Scan, then when the market gets saturated with 16:9 sets, they have to buy another copy in widescreen.

Again, this just won't happen. Anybody happy with pan-and-scan will be happy to zoom/stretch their discs to 16:9 using their sets features. There won't be any substantial rebuy of standard-definition 16:9 DVDs in the future. The rebuy is for High Definition, and that was going to happen regardless. It could be 10 years out before it is embraced by the mass-market, though.