Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

[Larry Gardner]

There is some confusion here. Some want P&S abolished altogether, others want dual releases, others want single releases with both versions.

This is realy not the issue. However the studios wish to release the OAR/P&S versions is secondary to the problem.

The problem is continuing to release ALL films in their original OAR, as promised when DVD was agreed upon in the DVD specs, and shoved down our throats on the original onslaught. The studios couldn't get mainstream USA to accept DVD - they were pretty happy with VHS (given the recording capabilities missing in DVD, and the extensive film libraries already created).

It was until mainstream USA realized - WHAT THEY WERE MISSING - did they start moving over to DVD - plus the fact that the studios were releasing less and less VHS material.

However, what bugs me is the fact that while mainstream USA was moving over to DVD - they now wish to dictate how the DVD technology should be. Eliminate extras, downgrade sound, fullscreen, no menus, eliminated animation, ... they basically want VHS on DVD.

Based on results from market surveys quoted all over the internet - mainstream USA could care less about on the features of DVD. If this is true, and I find it hard to believe any market surveys anymore, what the hell are they doing in DVD?

Back to the topics:

1. Many people are basically taking the approach - we are making mountains out of mole hills. This is more of a 'I don't care attitude until it affects me'. In my opinion - you shouldn't be in DVD either. You feel that the problem is not as great as we 'elitists' make it. So, when do we start making it an issue - after it's too late - that's already here. If I recall, this happened once before in history - a small country in Europe became a major power run by a dictator - I think he had a mustache. Many people kept talking about the atrocities happening - but they didn't seemed to affect us - so then there must not have been a problem. Right?

2. Others have stated that so a few family films get released - but the majority of releases are still OAR. For how long? And this family fil fare is a bunch of bull. If you check out Columbia's P&S releases, I don't know what families they are skewing for!

3. Disney doesn't seem to know where they should go. For example, I wanted to buy Three Men and a Baby, and it's sequel Three Men and a Little Lady. Neither one has been released to DVD before. Three Men and a Baby gets a P&S release. Three Men and a Little Lady gets anamorphic WS released. Both are considered family films. Now Disney - explain your policy. This makes no sense - plus market research shows that most people will purchase boxsets (or all versions), if they are consistent in nature. I find it hard to believe that your market research would indicate that people would want to purchase different types of DVD presentations in a series. I believe Natty Gann is the same way. In all fairness to WalMart and Blockbuster - this is not an issue created by them. I doubt they would have requested this.

4. Given the nature of cable TV and Network TV, and how many times catalog titles have been shown on TV (and their frequency), and prior releases on VHS - how many people DO YOU THINK ARE RENTING THESE TITLES? Most of these titles, I'm afraid, people could care less of (as far as rentals). And most rental shops - won't and don't carry these catalog titles. So, basically, your revenue IS GOING TO COME FROM SALES!!!!! And who are the people that are going to buy these titles - guess who??????

5. Give us a break on market research. Unless YOU PERSONALLY have done the market research - don't use retail stores or anyone else biased in nature on the types of DVDs the public wishes. They have their own AGENDA!

6. To quote Singin' in the Rain on the response to talking pictures - it's too bad we can't use that clip to promote OAR. When showcasing a 'Talking Picture', the actress (looking like Theda Barrow) says: It's Vulgarrr! Now if we could have the screen showing a OAR film, that would be perfect. Maybe the studios would take notice and reflect back when:

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT TALKING PICTURES!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT COLOR PICTURES!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT TELEVISION!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT COLOR TELEVISION!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT STEREOPHONIC SOUND!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT MULTI-CHANNEL SOUND!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT DIGITAL VIDEO!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ACCEPT DVD!

Studios - learn your lesson. How many times do you have to be proven wrong?

 

[streeter]

The time to do something is definitely NOW. It only takes a few sheep and then BOOM! the others follow.

I suggest a full-page Variety advertisement calling for help from Hollywood.

 

[Malcolm R]

On the current Video Business/Vidtrac DVD sales chart, as reprinted in the new Entertainment Weekly, the WS version of Spy Game is at #1, the P&S version is at #2. Small victory, perhaps?
EDIT/UPDATE: I found the most recent chart at the Video Business website. Rather encouraging overall that the WS version remains at #3 behind this week's debuts, while the P&S version falls to #8. Somewhat discouraging is that Circuit City seems to report that the P&S version is outselling the WS version in their stores (P&S #4 vs.
WS #8), but at Best Buy the opposite seems to be true (WS #4 vs. P&S #7).

 

[Stu Rosen]

Larry:
I read your post, and, well, I'm not ready to go to the mattresses, and I don't really care whether others prefer P&S.
But, since I apparently don't deserve my hobby, I was wondering, where should I go to turn over my 760+ OAR-only discs? Just let me know, and I'll vacate the bunker immediately.
Uh --

 

[Michael Pineo]

I'm sorry, but saying that if some people aren't willing to take such an extremist attitude towards this perceived threat to our hobby (and it is a hobby), then we don't deserve DVD, is ridiculous. And comparing the dumbing down of DVD to the Holocaust?!?!?! I don't even know what to say to that.

I think Jerry Gracia was right on:



MikeP

 

[Trace Downing]

Larry; :frowning: Nevermind. I can't respond without getting hot under the collar myself.
I'll just say this, If in a year or so, I can't find any more OAR DVDs for sale, then I'll watch the 350 or so that I have until the last bolt falls out of my player, and then I'll find something else to do with myself. I had a good ride, it would be DVD that changed, not me.
I think that would depend on how much the director stands to gain in profit sharing on the film in question. If said film was also a bomb, that also might influence his decision as well. Artistry only gets you so far, if it means your next film is to be financed or or you'll never eat lunch in this town again.

 

[Ricardo C]

How many studios releasing P&S-only titles are owned by companies that also have a hand in the hardware game? Wouln't a corporation involved in the 16x9 TV/projector market be interested in having software available for their products?

 

[Paul E. Fox II]

Well well, here I was all ready to fight and now it appears a towel has been thrown in. That's ok...I'll fight on my own.
The one thing that keeps coming back to me is a post early in this thread about the HUGE sales on movies like "The Matrix" and a few others that were ONLY AVAILABLE in widescreen. That seems to indicate there is hope. Another thing that I keep thinking about are the articles I read about the new technology that was to be Digital Versatile Disc...Pan & Scan AND Widescreen on the same disc! Why couldn't that have materialized. The studios already have to make a P&S transfer to cater to VHS, why not just include both! Some studios already do this to some extent. That was the PERFECT solution to me at the time since my wife HATED Widescreen (that has since changed and she now doesn't even pay attention to the "black bars"!)
My solution is simple. I WILL NOT BUY ANOTHER DVD THAT IS AVAILABLE ONLY IN PAN AND SCAN OR FULL FRAME! I have 534 some odd DVDs at this moment and I haven't watched all of them. If I want Pan and Scan, I can subscribe to HBO, SHOWTIME, CINEMAX, THE MOVIE CHANNEL and STARZ and guess what...it will be MUCH cheaper than the usual amount of money I spend on DVDs in one month!
STUDIOS AND STUDIO EXECUTIVES - LISTEN UP:
"I'm not a rich man. In fact, my family struggles to get by on a monthly basis and I take extra jobs to make the extra cash to buy your DVDs. There have been times when I found myself spending over $150.00 PER MONTH to buy your fine product but you evidently don't want MY money! THANK YOU! I'll gladly redistribute those funds in a much lesser capacity to something else that may give me pleasure. Meahwhile, when something else is developed that will put your "Entertainment Division" out of business (and believe me, that day MAY actually come...), there I'll be to help support it...that is, as long as they (whomever they are) continue to support me! People like me have made you rich beyond belief but you choose to turn your back on me. I have helped you sell your product, I have helped you develop new technology AND I have been there for you when you were down. Now, where are YOU when I NEED YOU? You choose to ignore my wishes. What will you do when the masses decide you aren't worth listening to? Will you then try get me to come back? What if I decide YOU aren't worth listening to?
Again, I say...I'm not a rich man. But there are some 10,000 of my brothers and sisters on this board alone and some of them dwarf me in their DVD purchases on a monthly basis. If you can afford to lose that money, then so be it. We'll find something else to do with our cash.
HD is around the corner friends, and IQ's will someday raise. What will you do then? You think WE'RE complaining now...wait 'til the Soccer Moms start screaming about those ugly Gray Bars! HOOWEE, will that be a site to see!"
I know most will agree that this is a futile effort, but it's how I feel! I guess I'll continue to buy the titles that ARE released OAR, but I'll die before another P&S or Full Frame title comes into this house!
Why in the hell can't Joe and his brethren be satisfied with VHS, a format that is PERFECT for his Pan & Scan life!

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Our feedback was appreciated in order to make DVD successful. Now that it is successful the studios are going to listen not to us but to the retailers and the mass public. That's where the big money is.

This hits another nail on the head.

During DVD's growth years, when it was struggling

to find its place on store shelves, the studios

put a lot of effort into the membership of this

forum.

Notice that there isn't a lot of studio

participation here anymore?

It was nice when it seemed like our opinions

meant something. Lately, I get the feeling that

now that the DVD Format has firmly established

itself, the studios don't think of our opinions

as worthy ones anymore.

DIVX was easy to kill off PARTLY because it

came at a time when DVD had not established

itself. The DVD format was so small that its

destiny was still controlled by the early adopters

who were refusing to buy into DIVX and spreading

the word about its downfalls across the internet.

Three years later, in 2002, DVD is so big that

the format is out of our hands. It is has gone

so mainstream that it doesn't really matter what

we say anymore. The format belongs to the general

public now. Whatever little spark of magic that

format once meant to all of us, has now been

dumbed down in order to cater to the general public.

While I believe the studios still browse this

forum for product feedback, they no longer take

our opinions seriously. They would much rather

put their faith in retailers who have now become

the ultimate gaurdians of film preservation.

.....and no, Paramount never said they were

going pan-and-scan only. It doesn't matter if

they do or not -- just the fact they would consider

catering to retailers is bad enough.

 

[Joe Schwartz]

Ron, I understand some of your disappointment, but let's be realistic -- of course Paramount and other studios are going to cater to retailers, if they think it will make more money. I guess I don't see the OAR battle in all-or-nothing terms. Although I refuse to buy any non-OAR discs, I think OAR can coexist with P&S.

 

[Joseph S]

Well, sometime this past month I crossed the 1000 DVD mark. 1 of the 1000+ DVD is a P&S only title. That title is "Spies Like Us." The purchase was made after hearing that no WideScreen print of the film is still in existence.
That equates to about $28,000 spent over the past 3.5 years on DVDs and DVD sets.
If I live to be 100 y/o, that could equate to $600,000+ lost to Hollywood over the next 75 years of my life.
Mr./Mrs. Studio exec:
Are you that ignorant to throw away over half a million dollars???? I certainly hope not. However, I'm not going to waste my money on P&S!!! I do not care what movies you choose to release, if they are not available in OAR I will not be purchasing or renting them.

 

[Ricardo C]

Amen, Joseph! I don't think studios realize just how much more product we buy since it's been available in its OAR. In the days of VHS, I rarely bought films. I mostly rented them. Now, I pick up DVDs quite frequently, sometimes as impulse buys. I've spent more money on DVDs in the past couple years than I spent on VHS in 15-odd years. But guess what? Those multiple monthly purchases will end if I can't find my films in their OAR.

Studios: Give the masses what they want, if you must. But don't neglect the people that helped DVD take hold of the home video market.

 

[Keith Ro]

Amen, Joseph! I don't think studios realize just how much more product we buy since it's been available in its OAR. In the days of VHS, I rarely bought films. I mostly rented them. Now, I pick up DVDs quite frequently, sometimes as impulse buys. I've spent more money on DVDs in the past couple years than I spent on VHS in 15-odd years. But guess what? Those multiple monthly purchases will end if I can't find my films in their OAR.

This is an absolutely KEY POINT. I too never bought a VHS tape -- low quality, butchered P & S presentation, quality would degrade over time. If the studio's move to P & S only, I won't stop renting films, but I definately will stop buying. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

 

[Larry Gardner]

Trace Downing, Stu Rosen, Michael Pineo:
Maybe I worded it wrong - maybe not. Basically, I was trying to emphasis the fact that until something affects some people 'point-blank' range, do they even consider doing something about it.
While I don't care about whether or not P&S and OAR exist together, I do car about whether or not OAR still exists.
How many titles have you been waiting for since DVD began, only now to get them as P&S butchered films.
I am not a average hobbyist. I have over 6000 Laserdisc, almost 1000 DVDs, full HT room (Lexicon M1), and WS TV. I have always been an avid collector and will continue to be until my dying day.
True, there are other things I probably could be doing, but I enjoy doing this.
What got my goat was how this thread had started - and how it is seemed to be ending up. My point was that until OAR is started to be seen as a 'special feature', are some of HTF members going to consider this to REALLY be an issue.
However, if this was a film special to them, you better believe that they are going to bitch - they'll do nothing - but they'll bitch.
However, I believe if we do convince some studios to reconsider reversing some of their ideas on P&S/OAR, I doubt these same people will not wish to enjoy the fruits of our labor.
But, after reading some of the posts after your (above people), I feel a little better. Some others better understood what I was trying to emphasis (specifically - studios using us to start this market - and now basically dumping us).
And Stu:
Even though I would never do this - 750+ OAR DVDS - there's always eBay .

 

[Ryan Peddle]

This is an absolutely KEY POINT. I too never bought a VHS tape -- low quality, butchered P & S presentation, quality would degrade over time. If the studio's move to P & S only, I won't stop renting films, but I definately will stop buying. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

I'm with you there. If I go to a store and start looking for a DVD and find that it is only being sold in P&S, I will be the one kicking up a stink. Just like the "full screen" morons have done to damage our beloved DVD format.

I will ask to talk to a manager, I will discuss why I am not buying this DVD and I encourage other to as well.

Some might say, "don't stoop to their level". Well, if the studios change the playing field, we have to change as well.

So I will kick up a fuss, and I will log a complaint. We can reverse the horrible occurence.

 

[Michael Pineo]

Larry,

I understand where you are coming from. Your statement just struck a nerve with me, because I had just been discussing, offline, a time a couple of years ago when someone here had equated pan & scan to dumping toxic waste, and it seems, sometimes, that we lose perspective here. But, I understand the comparison you were trying to make.

I too take this hobby seriously. Although I can't afford to spend as much money as some people, I have put together an enjoyable home theater with what I can afford to spend (low-mid level components, used Sharp XV-H37VUA projector, DIY 96" screen). My whole point has just been that I think the Home Theater Forum, as a community, would probably have better results trying to ensure that OAR DVDs continue to be made, instead of trying to get the studios to stop selling a product that makes them money (pan & scan). I will definitely be involved in any initiative to get the studios to understand that they should continue to release movies on DVD in the manner in which they were intended to be viewed, but I don't think it would be realistic to demand that they stop selling pan & scan versions.

Again, like I have said, I have the utmost respect for Ron. Hell, I have been trying to convince my wife to take a 4 1/2 hour ride with me to Scooter's party just so I can meet him in person. I'm just afraid that he let his frustration at the studios' attitude (which I can definitely understand, his frustration, not the studios' attitude), get the better of him when writing his article. As a rant, I think it works well, but as a serious attempt at a dialogue with the studios, I don't think it will get a positive reaction. Then again, from what Ron has said, the studios don't seem to be too interested in having a dialogue with the people who helped make DVD such a success in the first place, so maybe this is the only way left to him to get his point across to them.

MikeP

 

[Jack Briggs]

I fully understand that all this talk of giving up is borne out of frustration. But the studios do pay attention to this board, though not with fear and trembling any longer. They've collared the mass market, and we have become, in a sense, like elder statesmen: listened to with respect, but not taken into account in future planning.

Warner wants to make DVD a supermarket-available, $10-a-pop mass commodity one picks up with a copy of The National Inquirer.

In leaving us, the ones who made it happen, out to dry, they will discover just how deep the well truly runs.

All the hoopla about what makes DVD so special to begin with--superb clarity, great sound, extras, random-access convenience, and OAR--doesn't mean much at all to the guy who wants to check out Bubbleboy while downing that six-pack of Budweiser.

DVD will have become--is already becoming--another disposable item in a largely throwaway culture.

Thus, D-VHS D-Theater becomes all the more attractive. Wonder how the studios will cheapen that format?

(The Criterion Collection, however, is an oasis of dignity.)

 

[Andrew Seale]

Say no to Pan and Scam.

At least have both OAR and P&S on the same DVD.

Thank you

Andrew Seale

 

[John Berggren]

This thread has taken a depressing turn. Unfortunately I've no interest in D-VHS. Also, I don't know that I'd jump on HD-DVD right away either, if DVD can go pan-and-scan, what's to stop HD-DVD?

Just because you come to expect something doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean you should cling to it forever. Pan-and-scan was a bad idea from the get go. It seems nobody in the industry cares enough to address this issue though.

 

[george kaplan]

Um, it's a deteriorating tape format. It's already cheapened enough. :frowning: