Buffy Season 3 problems ? (1 Viewer)

[Inspector Hammer!]

Excellent, Christian! Now that's what I call hard evidence!
I think the case can be considered closed now, don't you Dave?

 

[Geoff_D]

OT I know, but I feel that I have to refer to Angel in the ongoing 4x3 vs. 16x9 debate, having just gotten seasons 1 and 2 on R2 dvd. Having watched a few episodes, it is clear that some of them blow the whole 'Angel was composed for widescreen' thing out of the water.

Take the first season episode 'I Fall To Pieces', presented in 4x3 (as is the whole of the first season). As the weird doctor's disembodied hand crawls down the side of the 4x3 frame late in the episode, the wrist of the performer cannot be seen, only the made-up 'stump'. But if this shot was to be opened up for 16x9 the performer's wrist would clearly be seen, ruining the effect.

Here's another example from the 16x9 presented season 2. The episode 'The Trial' begins with a shot of Cordy and Wesley talking. As the camera pulls back, a line is spoken by Cordy, who is at the extreme left of the 16x9 frame, and her lips clearly do not move. Then she and Wesley begin talking as the scene (and the 4x3 shot) begins proper. The initial line, obviously dubbed in at the editing stage, is intended by it's very nature to be spoken by an off-screen Cordy, as many dubbed dialogue changes or additions do not have a matching piece of live-action footage. But the opened up 16x9 frame reveals the lovely Charisma Carpenter too early in the shot in this case, making the added dialogue seem as if it comes from thin air. This also occurs at least once in the 16x9 Buffy season 4, but I can't remember where.

It's clear to me that Angel should be in 4x3 for the first two seasons, despite the protestations of those who 'know' otherwise. People can quote whoever they want until they're blue in the face, but there are errors due to the 16x9 framing in season 2, and all I can say is 'hurrah!' that season 1 was presented in 4x3. Seasons 3 and 4 are a different matter entirely, and look terrible in the centre-cropped (not pan&scanned!) 4x3 versions that Sky broadcast over here, with entire conversations taking place with characters that are just out of frame!

Going back to Buffy, we're currently on season 6 (in widescreen) on terrestrial at the moment, and there's so much dead space in the shots it ain't even funny. Whenever more than one person is on-screen they end up bunched up in the middle of the frame with nothing but space around them. Me, I can't wait for the R1 sets of season 4 onwards so I can see them as was intended.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Me, I can't wait for the R1 sets of season 4 onwards so I can see them as was intended.

What makes you think they'll be released any differently over here?

 

[Geoff_D]

Adam, just look at the furore surrounding Dark Angel. It appears as if the US will be getting the 4x3 version while Europe, Japan and Australia have got/will be getting the 16x9 version. I don't believe that Fox will go to the trouble of releasing Buffy or Angel in 16x9 for the ever widescreen-phobic American market, where Buffy has never (please correct me if I'm wrong) been broadcast in 16x9.

In fact, I reckon one of the key factors of Buffy being released in 16x9 over here was it's terrestrial widescreen broadcast. Everyone (including me) began demanding the dvd sets in 16x9, thinking they were losing something if they were in 4x3 - after all, widescreen means more, right? Or so I thought. But after sitting through the 16x9 fourth season again, it's clear that it's composed for 4x3, as are the subsequent seasons. Angel from season 3 onwards is a different prospect however, and it will be interesting to see how Fox deal with this in the US when the time comes.

Hopefully Fox will heed it's US customers (and one Joss Whedon) in presenting Buffy in it's intended 4x3 aspect ratio - plus they get to kill two birds with one stone. With this release they can simultaneously appease the OAR crowd and keep the millions of J6P's happy! You don't see that every day.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

I don't believe that Fox will go to the trouble of releasing Buffy or Angel in 16x9 for the ever widescreen-phobic American market, where Buffy has never (please correct me if I'm wrong) been broadcast in 16x9.

Well except for Once More With Feeling, yes. The only show Fox hasn't released in 4:3 that was broadcast that way on US tv is the X-files. Apparently, that was at the request of the creators.

 

[Dave F]

I think the case can be considered closed now, don't you Dave?

No, I don't. I think you are over-simplifying the issue. Like it or not, we are in a period where shows are shot with two ARs in mind. That simple fact clouds the single OAR principle.

-Dave

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Dave, with all shows. Ask the show's creators which AR they prefer, and use that one. Bottom line

With Buffy, this is 4:3
With Angel, this is 16:9 at least S2 onward
With 24, this is 16:9, as evidenced especially by the splitscreens

etc
etc

 

[Adam Tyner]

I don't believe that Fox will go to the trouble of releasing Buffy or Angel in 16x9 for the ever widescreen-phobic American market, where Buffy has never (please correct me if I'm wrong) been broadcast in 16x9.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but your earlier post seemed to indicate that season 4 of Buffy would definitely be released 4x3. Until the specs roll in, I'd say that's premature.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

I love a challenge.
Dave,
this notion of yours goes against the very term Original Aspect Ratio. Note the word ORIGINAL in that designation.
Shows may be shot with two ratio's in mind, but they ARE NOT composed for both, only one can be framed the way the creator intends, did you not read Christians post? Did you not read the excerpt from Joss himself? Or see the pics? All of this is pretty much indisputable, or would you challange Joss himself if he were here?

 

[Dan Rudolph]

With Angel, this is 16:9 at least S2 onward

Don't you mean S3? That's when it started being shown wide on SDTV in the US.

 

[Adam_ME]

Don't you mean S3? That's when it started being shown wide on SDTV in the US.

That's true, but Angel has always been shot in WS. And the Season 2 DVDs were released in R2 in WS, so it's safe to assume that the R1 set will be the same. Although now that I think about it, the R4 set for Season 2 was 4:3, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Greenwalt has said in interviews they tried to go widescreen in season 2, but WB wouldn't let them. Therefore S2 onward should be wide as this is Greenwalt and Joss's desire

 

[Scott Barnhart]

On a somewhat different note, does anyone else find Buffy in general, and season 3 in particular, almost insufferably dark (picture-wise)?

I have a Sony 40" XBR800 direct view and a Panasonic RP-82, and have calibrated via AVIA to perfection, both the user controls and the color-decoder via the service menu so that there is no red/green/or blue push, the color bars are perfect, the picture and brightness tests are perfect, etc. Normal image montages seen on AVIA or Video Essentials look breathtakingly beautiful.

But it seems like every episode of Buffy S3 is so DARK! Even more so than S1 and S2. Even daytime outdoor shots seem dark to me. Is the show just supposed to be like this? Does anyone else think this also?

For those of you that calibrate your TV with AVIA, do you use the "correct" settings when you watch Buffy, or do you bump up the brightness some?

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[James Reader]

I've found all NTSC television discs to be darker than normal on my player (True, most of my NTSC television discs are Buffy and the X-Files but it's also true for Malcome in the Middle and to a more limited extent my R2 PAL Xena discs - obviously taken from a NTSC master).
It doesn't really bother me as I can alter the brightness and contrast settings on my player and save upto 3 settings, so I just have one for my American TV on DVD discs.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

yes, Joss has always been hot on deep blacks

 

[Matt Naglieri]

Well I just got off the phone with someone at fox(1-888-223-2FOX).

They said they never heard of the issue with the theme music so nothing is being done to correct it.

Hopefully if enough people call and complain they will recall the disc.

In addition when I bought my set disc one was loose. It was scratched so bad that episode 4 won't play. I explained to them that I live in a small town and the store I purchased from won't take it back nor do they have another to exchange it with. I was told they would replace the disc if i sent the whole set to them insured and then I would have to wait 8-10 weeks for a replacement.

I seem to remember reading somewhere on the board that fox had excellent customer service, well it sure doesn't seem that way to me. It's really irritating that after spending $45 on the set they would expect me to shell out more to possibly receive a replacement set that is also damaged or will become damaged while in transit. I would at least understand if I just had to mail back the bad disc but sending the whole box is way too much to ask.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Matt, the peons who work there only know about whan they get from the higher-ups.

 

[Matt Naglieri]

Jeff

I completely understand that. I'm just frustrated about it and I have no idea what else to do.

It's been established that it wasn't aired that way and on top of that most people that bought the set got scratched discs.

On top of that I'm not in a situation where I could have bought it from a major store so I don't have the luxury of a simple return.

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

Greenwalt has said in interviews they tried to go widescreen in season 2, but WB wouldn't let them. Therefore S2 onward should be wide as this is Greenwalt and Joss's desire

Well, I'm not so sure. If the network forced them to shoot 4:3 and protect for 16:9, then 4:3 would probably still be the best since that's how it was composed.

It's analagous to if Michael Curtiz had wanted to shoot "Yankee Doddle Dandy" in technicolor, but had been told by WB that they would not pay for it. Just because the director had wanted it that way would not make the subsequently colorized version the legit one.

Regards,

 

[Jeff Kleist]

If the network forced them to shoot 4:3 and protect for 16:9, then 4:3 would probably still be the best since that's how it was composed.

They aren't going to dictate composition, just as long as it's watchable on 4:3. Don't forget, P&Sers don't care about composition. Since they'd be using the same film stock regardless, it doesn'tmatter and such a choice is left up to the producers