Am I the only one?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Camp, Aug 1, 2001.

  1. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    I own a high-def television and, while I would love to see console games in 1080i, I just don't see the forthcoming generation of consoles as being the providers of that dream.
    A high percentage of threads on this forum concern high-def gaming. Am I wrong to be skeptical of Microsoft's claims of Xbox's HD support? Should I be more excited about this possibility?
    I see no reason to get excited just because Microsoft said Xbox will have HD support. There is just too much conflicting information at this point. I have yet to read any solid report of real world use of these supposed features. I question the Xbox's real world ability to maximize it's graphical power at 1080i and I question the report that Xbox will be able to scale video to HD resolutions. I also question whether software developers will incur any added expense (or development time) to release games in HD when so few Americans have access to HD televisions.
    Don't get me wrong, from a technical point of view I have no doubt that Xbox can output HD games to some degree. I wonder how the real world application of HD gaming will compare in terms of graphical detail to what we'll see on the NTSC standard which Xbox was really designed for. (For example: Will we really want Xbox in 1080i if it means we loose bump mapping or other features?)
    I seem to remember Sega touting the Saturn as HD-compatible too. Certainly that's a different fish entirely but that pre-release hype surrounding the Saturn's launch has a similar echo -one that is yet unproven.
    [Edited last by Camp on August 01, 2001 at 10:47 PM]
     

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  2. Adam Nixon

    Adam Nixon Second Unit

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    I don't feel this is the generation of consoles that will deliver on the HD promise. For one thing, even HD is still embattled on capitol hill, and manufacturers are still trying to iron out connection standards.
    My understanding on the X-box is that games have to programmed for HD, the console itself isn't a guarantee. The closest we'll get as a "standard" is 480p, since Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo have all anounced progressive scan adapters.
     
  3. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    Yea, 480p will be nice. I should add that, in my above post, when I say "HD" I am refering to the HD formats beyond 480p.
    Just wanted to clarify [​IMG]
     
  4. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    Look at it this way, do you have any doubt that a PIII 733 computer with a Geforce3 card installed would have a hard time displaying a game like Quake 3 at:
    640x480 480p
    960x540 1080i
    1280x720 720p
    PC games have the option to go to higher rez ALL the time now. I think well see it a lot on the Xbox too seeing that its one of its strengths that shouldn't require that much more effort from the developers.
    Dean
    Guess I should add that the goal FPS seems to be 60 at these resolutions. Once a VGA adapter is made for the Xbox people will no longer need to have a HDTV to fully enjoy HD games making the market for them quite a bit bigger.
    [Edited last by Dean Cooper on August 01, 2001 at 11:12 PM]
     
  5. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    Most developers will probably choose to support 720p rather than 1080i - a small difference, but worth noting.
    Bizarre has already mentioned that their goal is to get Project Gotham up and running in HD with absolutely no loss in performance. By some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations, at 60fps with 8 textures, the Xbox can theoretically put ~4.2MPixels/frame. Dividing that number by 4.5 (to account for overdraw, blending, some trilinear/aniso filtering, and potential inefficiencies), we're left with ~926KPixels. A 1280x720p frame is ~922KPixels, so without anti-aliasing, this should be possible.
    Thankfully, most games won't use 8 textures/pixel, and dividing by 4.5 is a *really* conservative estimate, which provides significantly more breathing room for the machine.
    So, I'd be willing to bet that HD output is more likely than you might expect (especially if you're willing to trade resolution for AA, or a small drop in framerate) - in fact, several games will probably show up in 720p with anti-aliasing and no framerate problems. Quake III in maximum configuration (as mentioned above) runs at 45fps on the GeForce 3 with Quincunx AA at 1280x1024 (roughly 33% more resolution that 1280x720). Not too shabby.
     
  6. Adam Nixon

    Adam Nixon Second Unit

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    Gary, do you happen to work for Microsoft in some capacity? [​IMG] I don't think anyone else on this board has your depth of knowledge when it comes to the tech side of the X-Box.
    Just curious.
     
  7. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    Gary, you da man. Thanks for the post. I learned something from it. [​IMG]
    Dean
     
  8. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    Check your private messages.
     
  9. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    Gary,
    I want a private message too!! You're an encyclopedia!
    So, the NV-whatever it is in the Xbox is just as full featured as the Geforce 3 in terms of power at high resolutions?? I mean, my assumption that this box is totally optimized for 640x480 gaming is just wrong then, correct?
    If that's the case, you've got me quite a bit more excited!
    -Camp
     
  10. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    ----------------------------------------------------------
    So, the NV-whatever it is in the Xbox is just as full featured as the Geforce 3 in terms of power at high resolutions?? I mean, my assumption that this box is totally optimized for 640x480 gaming is just wrong then, correct?
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    The NV-20 is a hybrid Geforce 3 chip so theoretically should be MORE powerful at these high resolutions. Another thing to note is one of the bottle necks for a Geforce 3 card is the AGP bus which is not there in the Xbox. I think its safe to say that the Xbox is optimized to display the most difficult resolution making 640 x 480 at 60fps much less difficult to obtain.
    Dean
    [Edited last by Dean Cooper on August 02, 2001 at 10:36 AM]
     

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  11. Tim Markley

    Tim Markley Screenwriter

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    I'm in a 'wait and see' mode for HD gaming. I'd love to see it but I'm not gonna get my hopes up.
     
  12. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    The NV20 *is* the GeForce 3.
    The NV2A (the GPU used in the Xbox) is a derivative of a next-generation chip, that is superior in every way to the NV20.
     
  13. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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    Whoops [​IMG], Thanks for the correction.
    Dean
    Hey its my 100th post! Whoop dee doo [​IMG]
     
  14. Dean Cooper

    Dean Cooper Supporting Actor

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  15. Troy LaMont

    Troy LaMont Supporting Actor

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    Yeah Gary,
    Out with the cats (or let the cats outta the bag or something).
    Do you work for Microsoft or a third party that works with Microsoft.
    Not that it matters to me, but I like know that we have corporte representation amongst us on the boards (kinda like Petter Staddon from Fox).
    Camp,
    No you're not the only one!
    Troy
    A man of the facts, and I like Gary King's!
    ------------------
    No touchy, No touchy (Kuzco)
    [Edited last by Troy LaMont on August 02, 2001 at 03:47 PM]
     
  16. Gary King

    Gary King Second Unit

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    I'm not a 'corporate representative,' just a member who happens to be gainfully employed.
     
  17. Jeremy Illingworth

    Jeremy Illingworth Supporting Actor

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    I believe MS said HD on XBox will come in the form of 720p. And I'm trying not to get too excited (the Rogue Leader screens have me in the GCN camp) but I think there will be some games in 720p. Almost all DC owners I know have the VGA adapter and play on their monitors. HD games will be better there and it will show which means people will be looking out for the 720p symbol on the box.
    jeremy
     
  18. Camp

    Camp Cinematographer

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    Damn! My set (Sony) only supports 1080i and 480p. I wonder what it'll do with a 720p signal?
    -Camp
     
  19. Adam Nixon

    Adam Nixon Second Unit

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    I may be completely wrong, but I thought most Sony sets upconverted 720p to 1080i. Anyone care to verify this?
     
  20. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    Gary, are the discs a proprietary format, or are they just DVDs? Looking at the emu possibilities here, I don't want to buy one just to play Sega and Buffy [​IMG]
    Jeff Kleist
     

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