What if there was a format war and everybody won? (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

I wonder if the Super Audio and DVD Audio "format war" may lead to specialized niches?
I can see where there is real grass roots momentum for SACD among the independent audiophile labels. The audiophile press clearly loves the format and the title selection is increasingly strong.
I can also see that DVD Audio may be hard to kill off since a lot of DVD players have the capability. And there are some good pop titles that we would all like to have.
Perhaps it is possible that both win, with DVDA coming to be more popular with the HT segment of the market and Super Audio dominating the hard core two channel audiophile segment of the market. I can particularly envision that this could look somewhat like the laserdisc niche market that existed, with a real "purist" slant.
What do yo think?
Do you think one format will kill off the other?
Let me know your thoughts.

 

[mike_decock]

I can also see that DVD Audio may be hard to kill off since a lot of DVD players have the capability.

Isn't DVD-A a different standard from DVD-V? This means that the majority of DVD players don't have DVD-A compatibility. I think it's generally the DVD-A players which play DVD-V as well (so do most SACD players). Correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually expect DVD-A to die off and SACD to become a niche market product. I don't think many non-audiophiles are really gonna bother with either format. Heck, even if an average consumer has a DVD player and a "surround" system, when you tell him he's gonna have to buy a new player just to take advantage of DVD-A, he'll say "SCREW THAT". CD is the "reference" standard to the mass consumer and they're perfectly content with the quality (atrocious as it may be).

SACD is already gaining traction in the audiophile community with SACD releases from SONY as well as audiophile labels (MoFi's Patricia Barber, for example). I think this has a reasonably good chance of survival but it'll be about as big as vinyl (re)issues, a drop in the bucket industry-wise but enough to keep the specialty stores/labels alive.


-Mike...

 

[Marty M]

IMO, I think there is a possibility for both formats to co-exist. There is software available in both formats, and more labels are making product available in both formats. The key holdout, of course, is Sony. If you want a CD from their labels, you will have to go with the SACD format.

I really don't see either format gaining wide acceptance. Most people like their music in the traditional 2-channel format and are perfectly happy with the current CD format.

 

[Mike Broadman]

The only place I see any "war" between the two is on the internet. It is also the only place I see people assuming that one is trying to replace CDs.

In reality, no one really cares about these formats except for hobbyists. This small amount of people isn't enough for a real "war."

CDs will be the main musical format for a very long time.

So, instead of asking, "What if there was a format war and everybody won?" I ask, "What if there was NO format war?" The two are significantly different that they need not compete (as opposed to, say, Beta vs VHS).

 

[Lee Scoggins]

In reality, no one really cares about these formats except for hobbyists. This small amount of people isn't enough for a real "war."

Fair point Mike
But let's imagine this hypothetical...
1) The Rolling Stones releases take off like a rocket. Pre-orders are very strong based on my contacts at web retailers and Acoustic Sounds.
2) This encourages EMI to release some select Beatles titles (yes, they're on board with Super Audio)
3) Crest National pressing plant on board by December 2002.
4) Sony sees evidence of mass market acceptance (has the disc capacity) and invests in even broader marketing campaign.
5) All of this is underpinned by a) easy archiving via DSD on pro market and b) better copy protection in difficult industry environment.
I can see this happening. I may be a bit optimistic, but my point is that major titles will drive collectors and major fans who want the definitive edition of the music. If this means learning about a new format, then people will invest the time. DVD took off in a similar fashion.
Alas, as long as the title selection was decent, I am happy to see it survive as a hobbyist niche.

 

[Dan Joy]

This darn internet! First Dolby Pro logic, years later Home Theater Forum, next three thousand dollars later I am waiting for hi rez audio titles to come out. Stashing a twenty hear and there for future unkown releases.
Rant over!
I would like to see both survive. I love sacd and will buy more when available. I want to see Sony get their head out of thier a$$ and put out some more rock/pop/metal material. Don't get me wrong, I am getting into the jazz and easy listening but I require more rock music. CD redbook is awesome but now I know that warm sweet sound of SACD. I think if both formats start putting out lots of varied material, the present audience who is already listening(using)to hi rez will grow. If I see more DVD-A titles, my next dvd player upgrade will be a DVD-A player. I feel that others HT and audio fans will do the same. I think that mass market people will not catch on for a long time. Thats OK with me. But we must see more titles soon. Whatever it takes. I don't want to see the same dragging uncertainty that is ripping hdtv(yes, I know that hdtv will be mandatory at some point).

 

[Dan Joy]

This darn Internet! First Dolby Pro logic, years later Home Theater Forum, next three thousand dollars later I am waiting for hi rez audio titles to come out. Stashing a twenty here and there for future unknown releases.
Rant over!
I would like to see both survive. I love sacd and will buy more when available. I want to see Sony get their head out of their a$$ and put out some more rock/pop/metal material. Don't get me wrong, I am getting into the jazz and easy listening but I require more rock music. CD redbook is awesome but now I know that warm sweet sound of SACD. I think if both formats start putting out lots of varied material, the present audience who is already listening(using)to hi rez will grow. If I see more DVD-A titles, my next dvd player upgrade will be a DVD-A player. I feel that others HT and audio fans will do the same. I think that mass market people will not catch on for a long time. That's OK with me. But we must see more titles soon. Whatever it takes. I don't want to see the same dragging uncertainty that is ripping hdtv(yes, I know that hdtv will be mandatory at some point).

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

EMI is on board with both DVD-A and SACD. They have not committed the Beatles to DVD-A or SACD, and I suspect that they won't until they've negotiated with the estates of Messrs Lennon and Harrison, as well as Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr.

Announced titles from EMI on DVD_Audio include:

Heart "Dreamboat Annie"
The Band "Music from Big Pink"
The Beach Boys "Surf's Up"
The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds"

Source:
High Fidelity Review
DVD Audio World


These titles aren't chopped liver, most especially the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds", which is considered to be their best effort by many.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

They have not committed the Beatles to DVD-A or SACD, and I suspect that they won't until they've negotiated with the estates of Messrs Lennon and Harrison, as well as Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr.

True, I was just creating a hypothetical whereby SACD might really get moving into the mainstream.
Even I would purchase Pet Sounds

 

[KeithH]

Lee said:

I wonder if the Super Audio and DVD Audio "format war" may lead to specialized niches?

And a light bulb goes off in Lee's head.
The discussion from the beginning of this "format war" has been whether the masses are buying or will buy the hardware or software for these formats because of these formats. In other words, are the majority of people buying $200 Panasonic and JVC DVD-Audio players at Best Buy buying with any knowledge of DVD-Audio or with the intention of buying DVD-Audio discs? The same goes for buyers of the the $180 Sony DVP-NS500V DVD/SACD player. Given the overwhelming popularity of the DVD-Video format, I am skeptical that the majority of people are using these multi-talented players for playback of the high-resolution audio formats.
As for software, are most people buying DVD-Audio discs for use in DVD-Audio players? I doubt it, but I am no position to say for certain. The vast majority of these discs have Dolby Digital and/or DTS tracks for playback in far more prevalent DVD-Video players. The situation is a bit different with SACD since the majority of titles with mainstream appeal are single-layer discs from Sony. However, I am quite sure that the CDs of these titles are greatly outselling the SACDs. Once again, I can't say for sure, but it's just a hunch I have. The CDs are available everywhere and everyone has CD players. The SACDs, by contrast, are relatively difficult for the average consumer to track down.
I feel we are a long way from seeing DVD-Audio or SACD gain mass appeal, and it may never happen. For now, I hope we continue to see quality hardware for both formats, and I continue to hope that we will see a momentum swing as far as software is concerned.
In the end, the two formats will have to be marketed a lot better than they have been thus far to have any chance of gaining mass acceptance. Software is still scarce in numbers and accessibility. There is a growing collection of inexpensive hardware for both formats, but the manufacturers are not making a suitable effort to seduce consumers with the benefits of these formats. SACD and DVD-Audio is often listed as just another feature. The backers of the formats need to hit the pavement, so to speak, with aggressive marketing. Print ads, TV ads, etc. would go a long way to grab market share. Even with the best intentions, the backers of these high-resolution formats will be up against MP3 -- "free music", so to speak -- and that might be a "war" DVD-Audio and SACD cannot win.

 

[mike_decock]

DVD took off in a similar fashion.

I don't think so. I think the general public looked at the audio CD 15 years ago and said "Cool. Now, how about putting movies on a disc like that, too so I don't have to rewind those durn tapes".
The DVD was a long-awaited product. Nobody liked laserdiscs because of their size (except for the collectors and videophiles) and everybody was comfortable with the size of the CD. When the DVD hit the market, it was something many people had been hoping for.
The general population doesn't care to have a better sounding CD. Discrete 5.1 doesn't really offer anything since those with multichannel systems have already had several surround modes available to them for over a decade. It's not like that really boosted sales, either.
-Mike...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I don't think so.

Mike, I beg to differ here. DVD did take off in large part due to 1) grass roots efforts and 2) a serious marketing campaign.
It can happen with high rez with a little more backing.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Heart "Dreamboat Annie"
The Band "Music from Big Pink"
The Beach Boys "Surf's Up"
The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds"

Awesome. I hadn't heard this yet. Finally some more good DVD-As to look forward too.

Regarding the usage, I flip-flop between stereo and 5.1. I like both (depending on the mix) so that doesn't bother me. I don't have SACD going yet, but the Stones thing has me interested.

How about affordable DVD-A/SACD/DVD players become the norm. Sure, most people might not rebuy on DVD-A/SACD, but at least the option would remain out there. I think they could keep sales up enough to keep the format plugging along.

I never envision either "replacing" CDs, but I can see all 3 formats coexisting (CD, SACD, DVD-A).

 

[KeithH]

Seth, I agree that those titles hold promise for DVD-Audio. Hopefully they will come out.

You said:

How about affordable DVD-A/SACD/DVD players become the norm.

That would be nice. Pioneer will be releasing the Elite DV-45A universal player soon that will supposedly sell for around $500. That's a step in the right direction.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

A specialty retailer like Acoustic Sounds, as much as I like them, is a drop in the ocean compared to the volumes of CDs sold elsewhere. Even if something is a #1 seller at an audiophile e-tailor, it may not even register as a blip on the radar.

Mike, a fair point but head over to Amazon. Apparently yesterday Let It Bleed hit #53 on the CD chart!
That's pretty good for a major retailer like Amazon!

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

Without knowing more specifics as to where Amazon derives its rankings it's difficult to say what significance to attach to the ranking.

Is it:
#53 in total sales (unlikely)
#53 in sales for the day
#53 in sales for the last hour
#53 in preorders
#53 in preorders for the day
#53 in preorders for the last hour

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but without knowing a little more information, it's hard to say what the number means.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Without knowing more specifics as to where Amazon derives its rankings it's difficult to say what significance to attach to the ranking.

John,

That's a fair question. I will look into it.

Clearly though we are seeing strong evidence that the hybrid nature of thr release coupled with the popularity of the Stones can be a real driver of SACD sales.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

John,
It is from the Amazon 100 Best Sellers list which I believe includes current sales and pre-orders. I was not able to easily get to a phone number for customer service so I am not sure over what time period the results are calculated. I do not think that it is hourly since I have been watching the totals over the past two days since the Audio Asylum post on same topic. The album has been steadily rising from 83 to 53 to 40, etc.
Let It Bleed is currently at #40.
The ultimate goal is to make the BillBoard Soundscan list, but these will take a while, likely a week or two ofter the 27th release date.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

Agreed.

It will be just as interesting to see where the discs are placed in retail outlets.

Regards,

 

[Ted Lee]

my pov: i wonder if many others feel this way too?
i would love to get into the hi-rez format, but i'm too "worried" about which format will win. right now, it does seem like there is a format war. maybe only between audio enthusiasts on the internet, but it is there. i don't want to make any significant investment in a format that may become obsoleted.
imo, a clear winner won't be announced until the mass public audience casts their vote. i believe once the companies know which format will garner profits, then they'll come together. they may not like it, but it will probably happen.
unfortunately, in the grand scheme of things, this is still a business and the companies will be motivated by profit. there may be a niche market, but that's not one that i want to subscribe to.
i doubt 90-95%% of the general populace even knows about dvd-a and/or sacd. whatever it takes, these formats have to become more widely known, then the decision(s) should be easier.
anway, once i know which format survives, i'll make my decision.
ummm...what was i rambling about?