Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Jake Lipson]

Rian Johnson explains the answer of Rey's parentage. Spoilers, obviously:

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-last-jedi-spoiler-rey-parents/2/

 

[Jake Lipson]

Regarding the box office, of course it's not going to hit TFA levels. Nothing would.

Two years ago, the day before The Force Awakens was to open, my sister who hates sci-fi and almost always sticks only to arthouse movies called me and asked me to explain Star Wars to her because she was going to the first show of TFA. When I asked her why, she said because a bunch of her friends were going and asked if she wanted to go, and she was going with them.

She asked me to explain information that she would need to know to understand the plot of the new one to her and I said, "No one knows the plot of the new one."

She had trouble comprehending the level of secrecy around the plot and, when I was unable to explain more of what would happen in it, she said, "Okay, tell me who the characters are. Luke Skywalker is good, Darth Vader is bad."

I said, "Um, Darth Vader is dead."

"Oh."

It is people like my sister -- who don't normally care for Star Wars but got roped into The Force Awakens due to the cultural event status of being the first film in 32 years featuring the original cast -- who are sitting this one out, because they've returned to their normal stance of not caring about Star Wars. The fans will continue to rally around it, even if it is not as beloved as The Force Awakens (although it must be said that everyone in my screening appeared to love it.)

Also, I think some people in the non-online-fanboy, general public sphere might not rush out this weekend, but will come out over the Christmas-to-New Years holiday span. So, I think it is still going to be in great shape.

At the absolute minimum, worst-case scenario, even if its legs get cut off, it still outgrosses Rogue One, which would be $533 million to do that, since Rogue One ended with $532m and change. And I think this one, with characters we know and like and are already invested in, will go significantly higher. I don't have any problem imagining that it could get to Titanic levels ($659m) or Avatar levels ($760m), even if it's not going to come within striking distance of its immediate predecessor.

I saw The Force Awakens in theaters five times. Because of how many other films are coming out in the next few weeks that I want to see, I'm not sure that I would make it back to Last Jedi four more times. But I'll definitely do at least twice more.

Of course, I would rate the film an A and really loved it, so of course I will be happy to go see it repeatedly. But that's my opinion.

 

[benbess]

Your ranking of all Star Wars movies.....Here are mine:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars: A New Hope
3. The Last Jedi
4. Rogue One
5. Return of the Jedi
6. The Phantom Menace
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. Attack of the Clones
9. The Force Awakens

After thinking about it some more, I'm moving up The Force Awakens.....

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. The Last Jedi
4. Rogue One
5. Return of the Jedi
6. The Phantom Menace
7. The Force Awakens
8. Revenge of the Sith
9. Attack of the Clones

 

[Sam Favate]

Next, set design. Really, was the best thing the film's creators could have done for Snope's lair was a barren circular soundstage with a blatantly apparent phony wall/screen? I mean, Vader and Luke had their climatic lightsaber fight on a starship and the surroundings were far more intricate than an empty soundstage with a throne and a couple guards. I think THE WIZARD OF OZ did better for the Wizard's chamber.

I think they were going for a McQuarrie look, like this pre-production painting of the Emperor's throne room from Return of the Jedi:

 

[TravisR]

Saw it a second time today, with my kids. They made all the difference in the world. They cheered, they clapped, they hid their eyes. They jumped with excitement a few times, saying "oh yeah!" (It was a more lively audience overall, cheering and clapping at a few key parts.)

Just as a Star Wars fan, it's cool to hear that something that I love works for people 30 or 35 younger than me. And 30 or 35 years older than me for that matter.

I think they were going for a McQuarrie look, like this pre-production painting of the Emperor's throne room from Return of the Jedi:

Yeah, I definitely think they drew inspiration for the Snoke set from that painting. While I love that painting, I thought Snoke's throne room was one of the most visually striking sets in any Star Wars movie. The whole movie looked great but every shot in that Snoke set looked amazing because of either the red curtain/wall or the fire raining down.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I grew up believing that if 7-9 were ever made, they would be about the rebuilding of the Republic and the restoration of the Jedi.

This is my main complaint with the choices Abrams and Kasdan made in establishing where the universe is at for the sequel trilogy.

The prequel trilogy is Old Republic era, the original trilogy is Galactic Empire era, and I wanted the sequel trilogy to be nascent New Republic era. Instead, they wanted to play with the Empire and the Rebellion again and so created more or less indistinguishable offshoots of them in the New Order and the Resistance.

I would have much rather seen some new kind of threat emerge to drive the conflict of this trilogy. As it is, TFA mostly undoes the victory at the end of ROTJ, and TLJ undoes most of what's left at the end of TFA.

At first I was charmed by the Luke/Yoda scene. But once the charm vanished, and the meaning of it sank in, I have to say it's disenchanting.

I don't get that at all. Earlier in the film, Luke tells Rey that the Force is much bigger than the Jedi, that it existed long before they came into being and will exist long after they die out. Yoda's making a similar point to Luke: The Jedi are much bigger than their symbols and their artifacts and their texts. Once upon a time Yoda was basically the Pope, residing in the Apostolic Palace, handing down edicts along with the College of Cardinals to the masses in St. Peter's Square and around the world.

And he saw all of the trappings of his religion systematically destroyed, the grand cathedrals toppled, saw his followers persecuted and killed, until Obi-Wan Kenobi and himself were all that remained, and the knowledge inside their skulls. That's a hell of a thing to experience, and it gives his point real weight.

Lots of catastrophic mistakes were made that got them to that point.

But the two of them weren't defeated by it all. And having lived through it probably made them better teachers for Luke. Failure is always an important teacher, and I appreciated that the movie articulated that.

Luke had been stewing in his feelings of guilt and remorse and fear for a long, long time. Yoda gave him permission to forgive himself, accept his shortcomings, and move forward. And that gets to another recurring theme: the idea that we always want the next generation to do better than we did.

 

[TravisR]

Earlier in the film, Luke tells Rey that the Force is much bigger than the Jedi, that it existed long before they came into being and will exist long after they die out. Yoda's making a similar point to Luke: The Jedi are much bigger than their symbols and their artifacts and their texts.

It's fairly subtle but Rey took the Jedi books before leaving Ahch-To. It's blink and you miss it but you can see them in a drawer on the Falcon when Rey is going to get in the escape pod to meet Kylo Ren and there's a real shot of them is at the end when Finn pulls a blanket out of the same drawer for Rose.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Rian Johnson explains the answer of Rey's parentage. Spoilers, obviously:

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-last-jedi-spoiler-rey-parents/2/

While I understand why Johnson did it, But I think it’s a point of contention for many people and one of the reasons why audiences reaction to this film has been lukewarm.

 

[WillG]

Double

 

[Jake Lipson]

it’s a point of contention for many people and one of the reasons why audiences reaction to this film has been lukewarm.

You're probably not wrong, Robert. But while we can react in any way that we see fit, the fans don't have any ownership over these films, even though we sometimes like to think that we do. Johnson had to go with the version he thought would be the best, regardless of how it would play to the fans, and I'm glad he did. I just hope Abrams and Terrio don't decide to walk it back in order to please fans who wanted an "answer."

 

[WillG]

We do not need to know anything else about Snoke, he served his purpose to complete Ren's path to the dark side perfectly. Ren is the true villain of this trilogy not, Snoke. Just like Vader was the villain of the OT not the Emperor. If you think about it, we didn't know much backstory about the Emperor after ROTJ either and no one really cared. IMO, the Snoke/Ren/Rey scene is one the best in whole series.

You are correct about the Snoke/Palpatine comparison. No, we didn't learn anything about Palpy's backstory in the OT and it didn't matter. Not knowing Snoke's backstory doesn't really matter all that much in TLJ. Though I am curious as to how Snoke came along so quickly after the fall of the Empire. Surely he was alive during the events of the OT, so I wonder what what was going on with him then. I'm sure there will be a book released that will get into all that though.

The way Johnson wrote the scene leaves no question that he meant for it to be the truth IMO. Ren told her she always knew, to search her feelings and then she starts to cry. That tells me that she did just that and saw that he was telling her the truth. Now, JJ could come along and screw that up but, it would be a mistake IMO.

Speaking of which, was anyone else wondering how many buckets that Johnson had to keep just out of frame to keep all of Rey's tears from flooding the set.

As far as J.J., hard to say what he might do. If you think about it, in retrospect it seems like TFA and TLJ was kind of a tug of war between J.J. and Johnson. J.J. sets up a mystery over Rey's lineage and Johnson tosses it. J.J. creates Snoke, Johnson kills him off. I kind of think J.J. wants Rey to be a descendant of one of the core OT characters. Then again, even though J.J. wasn't involved in the TLJ story, he's still credited as an Executive Producer so I would imagine that means he would have veto power over story elements he was truly unhappy with. Guess we'll see in 2.

Was anyone else bothered by Anakin/Luke's Lightsaber all a sudden having a pointed tip. I don't even remember that being the case in TFA.

 

[Robert Crawford]

You're probably not wrong, Robert. But while we can react in any way that we see fit, the fans don't have any ownership over these films, even though we sometimes like to think that we do. Johnson had to go with the version he thought would be the best, regardless of how it would play to the fans, and I'm glad he did. I just hope Abrams and Terrio don't decide to walk it back in order to please fans who wanted an "answer."

I’m not saying Johnson is wrong in going in that direction, I’m just stating my opinion as to why audiences might be unhappy about this film.

 

[DaveF]

The points that bothered me yesterday still bother me today, but they did not interfere with my enjoyment of the movie.

Actually, it makes me place the blame more on JJ Abrams' writing in the first movie than anything (and that fills me with dread for the next one). I enjoyed this movie, but I still feel like it was a missed opportunity in several ways. In terms of storytelling, it made me long for the unambiguous storytelling of the original films and, yes, the prequels.

How do you blame The Force Awakens for perceived problems in The Last Jedi?

 

[Greg.K]

The prequel trilogy is Old Republic era, the original trilogy is Galactic Empire era, and I wanted the sequel trilogy to be nascent New Republic era. Instead, they wanted to play with the Empire and the Rebellion again and so created more or less indistinguishable offshoots of them in the New Order and the Resistance.

I would have much rather seen some new kind of threat emerge to drive the conflict of this trilogy. As it is, TFA mostly undoes the victory at the end of ROTJ, and TLJ undoes most of what's left at the end of TFA.

Yes. I wish TFA had shown the New Republic in its prime so we could grow to care about it as the new threat grew rather than just see a few nameless unknown planets get blown up. It could have been so much more than an ANH rehash.

One reason why I'm looking forward more toward Rian Johnson's new trilogy than I am to episode IX.

 

[WillG]

Dude, too soon!

 

[Brett_B]

Another thing that I want to mention is in regards to the audience reaction that I had at my showing.

When the Lucasfilm title came up the audience cheered and applauded, and it really made me smile. There were a lot of laughs at the key points in the film, but the biggest reaction came when Kylo made his choice between Snoke and Rey. When he killed Snoke and started his fight along side with Rey my audience erupted with cheers and applause that sent shivers down my spine. Unfortunately, the way that the events turned out with Kylo going back to his originals ways I felt disappointed knowing that I will never be able to view that situation in the same way again, and that feels like a major missed opportunity which saddens me. I will never forget that original moment for a long as I live, and really wish that it didn't end up that way. That was the first time I was in an audience that applauded at the end of the movie, but I really wonder what it could have been.

 

[Sam Favate]

How do you blame The Force Awakens for perceived problems in The Last Jedi?

Because that film left basically the entire time from ROTJ to TFA a mystery, with no backstory for characters like Snoke, or explanation of how the First Order sprang up, and no background for Rey. Had that movie done a better job in establishing things, this film would have had better resolution of those characters and situations. Snoke is the best example - had we learned who he was, where he came from and what he was up to in TFA, his death in TLJ wouldn't feel so abrupt and we wouldn't feel like we'd never get an explanation. With no explanation, we can never put it in context.

Same goes for Rey. If we knew her background in TFA, it wouldn't have been up to Johnson to resolve it, which he did in a manner inconsistent with the hints dropped in the first film, and it wouldn't feel so unsatisfying.

 

[MielR]

I think they were going for a McQuarrie look, like this pre-production painting of the Emperor's throne room from Return of the Jedi:

If that's what they were going for, they really missed the mark.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I’m just stating my opinion as to why audiences might be unhappy about this film.

I totally get that. Some people spent the last two years obsessing over theories about who Rey's parents are -- and I don't mean that as a bad thing, since it's part of being a fan -- and for them I totally understand why they wanted a more definitive answer that included a character or characters we already know. I understand why, if people spent a lot of time and emotion trying to figure this out, this is not the answer that they wanted.

I am also curious as to whether or not those people who wanted it to be Luke or Obi-Wan or Han and Leia's long-lost daughter or whatever may feel about it in retrospect, either on repeat viewings now, or in a couple years down the line when it's not so fresh. I hope they come to understand why it was done this way and that they don't let this ruin their anticipation for the next movie or anything.

Because I was born into a world where The Empire Strikes Back was pre-existing, I knew the Darth Vader twist just from general pop culture osmosis even before I saw the original Star Wars. I never got to experience that as a surprise. I think, though, the fact that the series already had that great paternity reveal probably amped up the fans' expectations around this one, like they would be able to do that again. I'm glad they went a different direction rather than trying to mimic it, which wouldn't have been anywhere near as effective.

Johnson talked in the article I linked above about Darth Vader's reveal being the absolute hardest thing for Luke to hear in that moment, which is why it still works as a dramatic beat even though I knew it was coming As Johnson said, this is the same thing for Rey, and I agree with him that it was the right way to go. But if it causes some fans to not like the movie, that is totally understandable. I'm sure Johnson understood that there would be some backlash to that answer and is fine with that -- but, honestly, the way people were all hyped up about it, there likely would have been backlash to any answer that he provided. I applaud him for taking a big swing, and Kathleen Kennedy too for letting him do it.

 

[WillG]

Another thing that I want to mention is in regards to the audience reaction that I had at my showing.

When the Lucasfilm title came up the audience cheered and applauded, and it really made me smile. There were a lot of laughs at the key points in the film, but the biggest reaction came when Kylo made his choice between Snoke and Rey. When he killed Snoke and started his fight along side with Rey my audience erupted with cheers and applause that sent shivers down my spine. Unfortunately, the way that the events turned out with Kylo going back to his originals ways I felt disappointed knowing that I will never be able to view that situation in the same way again, and that feels like a major missed opportunity which saddens me. I will never forget that original moment for a long as I live, and really wish that it didn't end up that way. That was the first time I was in an audience that applauded at the end of the movie, but I really wonder what it could have been.

Yeah, as said earlier, I really wish they kept that as kind of a cliffhanger. The idea of Kylo and Rey aligning and maybe it seems that Kylo abandoned the dark side, but we're not quite sure and maybe he's using Rey to destroy the resistance once and for all. It would have been an awesome note to end the movie on.

I think that's my biggest gripe so far with the movie, missed opportunities. They had a chance to gracefully end Leia (and avoid obvious problems with episode IX) but chose not to and a tentative Rey/Kylo alliance.