Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

I asked an acquaintance of mine why they hated the movie so much. They simply said, "Luke isn't a quitter."

When I replied that he didn't quit, that he saved the day at the end, the acquaintance said, "A lot of people died while Luke sat on that island brooding. He quit. I don't want to see it again or even think about it anymore. Luke would never act the way he did. They got it wrong. I'm done with the new movies."

What am I supposed to say to that? I don't wholly agree with it, but I understand it. I guess to many fans, there are some things you don't screw with. You don't tug on Superman's cape. You don't spit into the wind. And apparently you don't fuck around with Luke Skywalker the way Rian Johnson did.

Not a thing! I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out another person's logic for disliking any film. IMO, that's their issue.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think it just speaks to the different types of fans: those who like something, and therefore want more of that thing only exactly the same, and those who want to see that thing they like used as a seed which evolves as it grows.

The people Disney needs to love this movie aren't those who saw Star Wars 40 years ago. It's those of the younger generation who never had a Star Wars movie made for them, who were too young the last time there was a new Star Wars film in theaters. It's those who occasionally watch a Star Wars movie but couldn't pick Mon Monthma out of a lineup. For Disney's tentpole strategy to work, these movies need to attract a wide audience, and not simply be about yesterday's nostalgia. Frankly, I can't think of a Star Wars movie I'd like to see less than one that's about 60 year old Luke, Leia and Han fighting as if they were still 30, with all sorts of CGI and stunt doubles and trickery used to disguise that the cast isn't as agile as they once were. I remember how much I was bored to death by the last few Bond movies that Roger Moore did, where he's pushing 60, and it's just not believable that his character is winning the physical fights he's getting into, it's not believable that his character is scaling the Golden Gate bridge, and it's not believable that his character is attracting 20-something women who don't notice an age difference. It's not even that Roger Moore couldn't have been James Bond anymore; it's that Roger Moore was no longer credible as the same version of James Bond he played ten years earlier. Those films stubbornly refused to acknowledge that time was moving forward, and because everyone is straining at pretending that Moore is still a young man, the movies come across as ridiculous. And that's the danger that Star Wars potentially faced with bringing back Luke, Leia and Han. For all of the nitpicks I do have with TFA and TLJ, this isn't one of them.

Anyhow... I have to ask, did your friend love TFA? Because in that film, Luke's disappearance is set up. That he's left when the galaxy needed him is established there. Maybe if Luke hadn't left, all of those bad things that happened between ROTJ and TFA wouldn't have happened. And certainly, at the end of TFA, when Rey goes to see Luke, he doesn't greet her happily as a long lost friend; his face screams "I wish you weren't here, and I don't want to do this" -- and I'm not just saying that because of how TLJ began, that's how I read his face back in 2015.

edit: Travis beat me to much the same point.

 

[Carabimero]

MO, that's their issue.

I agree, but my point is, it looks like there are a lot of people who might have that issue. I'm not sure it's an isolated gripe. Who knows. Some angry fans will forgive it by this summer and eagerly go to the next movie. But some may not. Something appears to have hit a nerve. That's the point I was trying to make, not really point out one fan's dissatisfaction.

Anyhow... I have to ask, did your friend love TFA?

I'm not sure, I don't see this guy all that often. His beef wasn't Luke being on the island. It was that Luke took his marbles and went home.

Edit : I just texted the guy. He said he was willing to wait and hear Luke out (why he left). Once he heard what Luke had to say, he called bullshit and that was it.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I agree, but my point is, it looks like there are a lot of people who might have that issue. I'm not sure it's an isolated gripe. Who knows. Some angry fans will forgive it by this summer and eagerly go to the next movie. But some may not. Something appears to have hit a nerve. That's the point I was trying to make, not really point out one fan's dissatisfaction.

We already knew that based on the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. People don't like change and they don't like it when things don't play out like they want them to and it's the case with the direction this film and the prior film took in regard to the Luke, Leia, and Han.

 

[Carabimero]

We already knew that based on the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes. People don't like change and they don't like it when things don't play out like they want them to and it's the case with the direction this film and the prior film took in regard to the Luke, Leia, and Han.

The point I'm trying to make is specifically that painting Luke as a quitter is what the problem is here, not change, not things going differently. I think they could have gone a lot of different ways and people wouldn't be pissed. But it's freaking Luke Skywalker. And he quit. And if they feel that way for that reason, maybe it's a legit reason to all of them. That's why I'm saying. That maybe of all the things Rian could have done, he did the one thing they won't forgive.

 

[Robert Crawford]

The point I'm trying to make is specifically that painting Luke as a quitter is what the problem is here, not change, not things going differently. I think they could have gone a lot of different ways and people wouldn't be pissed. But it's freaking Luke Skywalker. And he quit. And if they feel that way for that reason, maybe it's a legit reason to all of them. That's why I'm saying. That maybe of all the things Rian could have done, he did the one thing they won't forgive.

That isn't a change????? It is a change in that character in my opinion as he did quit and came to that planet to die alone.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Frankly, I'm glad Rian took Luke Skywalker towards a different direction than many including Mark Hamill himself didn't like. I didn't want Luke becoming like Obi Wan in the first Star Wars film.

 

[Carabimero]

That isn't a change????? It is a change in that character in my opinion as he did quit and came to that planet to die alone.

Yes, of course it's a change. What I am saying is that these shattered fans would accept almost any change, except for the one they got. Their hero turned out to be a quitter. And that's not why they loved Star Wars, to discover after 37 years that Luke Skywalker, hero of the universe, is a quitter.

I get it. It took me a week, but I get it. I see to them that it's irreparable damage--worse than Jar Jar Binks, because they can't laugh it off.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Yes, of course it's a change. What I am saying is that these shattered fans would accept almost any change, except for the one they got. Their hero turned out to be a quitter. And that's not why they love Star Wars all those years, to discover their hero is a quitter.

I'm not so sure about that as people are funny when written or any kind of narrative doesn't fit theirs.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The point I'm trying to make is specifically that painting Luke as a quitter is what the problem is here, not change, not things going differently. I think they could have gone a lot of different ways and people wouldn't be pissed. But it's freaking Luke Skywalker. And he quit. And if they feel that way for that reason, maybe it's a legit reason to all of them. That's why I'm saying. That maybe of all the things Rian could have done, he did the one thing they won't forgive.

I just don't see how that's solely Rian Johnson's fault. The opening crawl to The Force Awakens, as written by JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan, from a story by Michael Arndt, as commissioned and approved by Kathleen Kennedy (who has final cut), begins with the words "Luke Skywalker has vanished." The film further goes on to describe how Luke had quit; Han Solo himself has a speech where he describes exactly where Luke's head is at. Then, the film ends showing a disillusioned Luke who does not wish to be called upon.

This is what Rian Johnson was handed. And with respect to your friend and anyone else who doesn't like the film and is lashing out at Johnson and only Johnson as if Star Wars was just fine and then this one guy came along and ruined it all, that was a direction that was already established when Rian Johnson was hired to take the reins.

I don't think there's anything surprising about where Luke began TLJ, especially if you had watched TFA beforehand. If TLJ began, and it opened with Luke smiling and saying, "Rey, I'm glad you're here! Help me dry off my x-wing and let's go fight some bad guys!" that, to me, would have been a bigger betrayal because it would have gone against everything that TFA told us about Luke, the state of the Jedi and the state of the galaxy.

I've noticed a trend lately - and maybe it's not that new - where it seems the audience feels that they know more about the work of art being viewed than the creators of that artwork. Whether it's the moviegoer who objects to something in TLJ because he watched Star Wars forty years ago, so damn it, he knows more about that world than anyone else because he was there forty years ago, or the television fan who feels that its their right to determine which characters should get together onscreen, or the ludicrous amount of fan fiction, fan edits, and fan films out there, it's really amazing how many viewers feel that they know better than the person who's making the thing in the first place, and how strongly they feel that their own opinion matters more.

Their hero turned out to be a quitter.

Or, their hero had a character arc.

I wrote three overly long and overly detailed paragraphs about Luke's actions before and during TFA/TLJ, but it doesn't matter. Luke had a character arc rather than arriving onscreen as a fully formed character that remained the same from beginning to end. I think as Robert Crawford was pointing out, some people just want the exact same thing they saw 40 years ago presented today. Ultimately, if Star Wars is going to be a living, breathing thing that has staying power beyond the George Lucas era, it must continue to connect with new audiences, and create new stories that don't depend on exploring unspoken minutia from a decades old film. Rogue One is not the path forward for the franchise - they can make one of those every now and then and it will be fun, but if the barrier to entry to new Star Wars films is that you must love all of the original ones, and be prepared to examine everything in those films at unnecessarily close detail, the franchise would flame out over time.

Most of what everyone saying here is anecdotal, so allow me my own chance at some anecdotal evidence. In 2015, everyone I knew went out to see TFA, even though most were not anything close to die-hard Star Wars fans. They came away from the movie enchanted by Rey, won over by Finn, and enjoyed Poe's mix of cockiness and bravado. Those people, who didn't feel a deep loyalty to the franchise, were swept up in what they saw. And, without fail, all of them who have seen TLJ have enjoyed it. In the ways that matter most, TLJ does what's most important, that is, to continue the stories of Rey, Finn and Poe.

 

[Carabimero]

I just don't see how that's solely Rian Johnson's fault.

I don't think they care whose fault it is or about the arc or whatever. They just care about Luke. That Hamill agrees with them was probably the nail in the coffin.

Han may have died, but he never stopped being Han, so ultimately it was forgiven. Maybe they feel like Luke stopped being Luke.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

They just care about Luke. That Hamill agrees with them was probably the nail in the coffin.

But he doesn't. That's the most misleading pull quote in history. Hamill doesn't say that he hates The Last Jedi and that he's against everything that happened in the film. He said that when he read the script, it didn't line up with his preconceived notion of where the character should have been. Then, upon re-reading the script and discussing it with Johnson, he grew to love the script and felt it was exactly right.

Maybe they feel like Luke stopped being Luke.

And, respectfully, maybe they stopped watching the movie after the first few minutes. Luke had a character arc. In order to have an arc, a character must change in some way from start to finish. Luke began the film as a man who was defeated, not as a quitter, but someone who was actually defeated. I would call having your school burnt down, your pupils murdered, and your philosophy rejected by the galaxy at large to be a defeat.

In terms of time elapsed in the original trilogy, we saw Luke Skywalker for what, 18 months out of his life, if that, as someone just coming out of his teenage years? And, from that brief window, we're supposed to be able to definitively extrapolate what his life should be like and how he should react to every situation that he would ever face, at any age and with any life experience, based on how we saw him in that one brief moment of time?

And then there's that whole part where Luke examines and confronts his feelings and decisions, and then, oh yeah, does the most badass thing any Jedi in the history of Star Wars has ever done onscreen.

But he's not Luke anymore? I don't buy that.

Maybe some of these people who are complaining aren't Star Wars fans, not really -- that is, not fans of the Star Wars franchise. They're fans of a specific Star Wars movie from a specific time period, not the work as a whole.

This analogy might help: until recently, I had thought of myself as a fan of the band Arcade Fire. I loved their first album, I didn't like their second album, and I loved their third album even more than the first. But I hated their fourth album, and I disliked their fifth album. The other day, I was thinking about this, and I realized: I am not an Arcade Fire fan. I am a fan of Arcade Fire's first and third albums. Having that kind of clarity was a relief. With that, I no longer felt obligated to buy albums I didn't enjoy, nor to see live shows that were filled with songs I didn't want to hear.

I think this describes a lot of people, particular people who were around when the original movie came out, who call themselves "Star Wars fans". And I think it's fair to say that they are fans of the original film, but I wouldn't call them "Star Wars fans" because to me, that signifies liking the whole of the work, and not just one piece of it. I mean, at this point, we've got tons of people who call themselves Star Wars fans, but disparage or outright reject six of the nine Star Wars films. If you call yourself a Star Wars fan, but you also say you dislike the majority of Star Wars films, maybe "Star Wars fan" doesn't mean what you think it does.

 

[Tim Glover]

Just saw this last night for the 2nd time and already looking forward to the next viewing

 

[Carabimero]

But he doesn't. That's the most misleading pull quote in history.

The video was removed, but Hamill did say, "He's not my Luke." He even went so far as to call him another Luke. You can still find the quote in print, if not video.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Josh, everything you said about Luke is totally logical. But the fans who are upset and who signed that petition to remove TLJ from canon aren't being logical. To them, "Luke stopped being Luke" is exactly the problem. They don't care about his arc. They just wanted him to face down the whole First Order with a laser sword, like he pointed out would be ridiculous in the beginning. They just wanted him to act like the Luke we all remember from the original trilogy, and when he didn't, they got upset instead of being able to appreciate the arc.

Their loss, I think.

 

[Kevin Lamb]

The best stories typically feature heroes who get beaten down before rising to the challenge. I fail to see why failure, hopelessness, and depression are somehow off limits as challenges for Luke to overcome. The lower the low the more epic and satisfying the high. We get half a dozen tentpole superhero movies a year where being misunderstood for how awesome they are is about as bad as it gets for them. I'm so thankful that Luke was allowed to go down to a place that we can *all* relate to (some more than others) only to overcome it in spectacular fashion. I'm as diehard an OT fan as they come and I suddenly feel like while those classic films did indeed showcase great heroism on Luke's part TLJ surprisingly showed just how much more he was capable of.

I know that there are many who just wanted him to be another Obi-Wan or Yoda; a supporting character at the top of his game with virtually no arc to speak of. What a loss that would have been IMO. I've still only seen TLJ just the one time but as each day goes by I'm finding myself adoring it more and more.

 

[Edwin-S]

I've noticed a trend lately - and maybe it's not that new - where it seems the audience feels that they know more about the work of art being viewed than the creators of that artwork. Whether it's the moviegoer who objects to something in TLJ because he watched Star Wars forty years ago, so damn it, he knows more about that world than anyone else because he was there forty years ago, or the television fan who feels that its their right to determine which characters should get together onscreen, or the ludicrous amount of fan fiction, fan edits, and fan films out there, it's really amazing how many viewers feel that they know better than the person who's making the thing in the first place, and how strongly they feel that their own opinion matters more.

That is why it is called a "Fandom". The people in a fandom invest into the property to a level that casual consumers don't. Like it or not, they take ownership, a lot of time to an even greater degree than the original creator. To the original creator, it is a job: a means to make money. To rabid fans it becomes a passion that infiltrates their life. They create head canons and, to paraphrase and misquote, Hell hath no fury like a fan with a busted head canon. Hanging around the MLP: FiM fandom for awhile proved that to me.

 

[WillG]

If the repetitive nature of this trilogy holds true, it is going to be revealed that Kylo Ren lied about her roots and that she is really his sister. Even in this second film, the circumstantial evidence that they are brother and sister is strong, regardless of what Ren said to her.

This thread is moving faster than I can read it so forgive me if my post has been covered already

For one, I hope they don't go repeatative (although I'm not coming up with how IX will avoid the conventional wisdom of the Resistance defeating the First Order, Kylo going to the light and sacrificing himself to save Rey and/or the Resistance). But besides that, I don't see how Kylo and Rey are siblings. IMO things in TLJ negate it but even going back to TFA it's unlikely. For one, why didn't Leia sense that Rey was her daughter? And no, Leia hugging Rey instead of Chewie when they returned from Starkiller base isn't enough. Plus I'd have to believe that Han would have known in some why just by instinct would have been a story thread. Now moving on to TLJ, Luke would certainly have sensed that Rey was a Solo, I don't buy the "Luke closed himself off to the Force" bit. But let's say we go with that, Luke surely would have mentioned that Ben Solo had a sister. Also Rey would have sensed that she was Kylo's sister in their "standoff". And remember that Kylo didn't tell Rey her parents were nobodies, he only confirmed it after Rey searched her feelings.

However since TLJ is officially now in a box office crisis in no small part due to fans butthurt over this, I'm sure J.J. will retcon it back somehow. Then get ready for the wave of complaints two years from now that J.J. brought it back to fan service.

 

[TravisR]

I think this describes a lot of people, particular people who were around when the original movie came out, who call themselves "Star Wars fans". And I think it's fair to say that they are fans of the original film, but I wouldn't call them "Star Wars fans" because to me, that signifies liking the whole of the work, and not just one piece of it. I mean, at this point, we've got tons of people who call themselves Star Wars fans, but disparage or outright reject six of the nine Star Wars films. If you call yourself a Star Wars fan, but you also say you dislike the majority of Star Wars films, maybe "Star Wars fan" doesn't mean what you think it does.

Star Wars: OK but no Empire
The Empire Strikes Back: greatest movie ever
Return Of The Jedi: sucks
the Special Editions: suck
the prequels: all suck
Rogue One: sucks
The Force Awakens: remake and sucks
The Last Jedi: too different and sucks

And yet they keep going so I wonder why Disney doesn't give a shit what people like that think?

 

[TravisR]

This thread is moving faster than I can read it so forgive me if my post has been covered already

For one, I hope they don't go repeatative (although I'm not coming up with how IX will avoid the conventional wisdom of the Resistance defeating the First Order, Kylo going to the light and sacrificing himself to save Rey and/or the Resistance).

I could be totally wrong but I think they want to establish him as just too evil to redeem now. Maybe Force ghost Luke will help him turn but if I was betting, I'd say he's the bad guy for Rey to defeat and he will not turn back. If only so they don't have to have calls of copying ROTJ.