Sony TA-P9000ES - does it have any competition? (1 Viewer)

[Martice]

However, it seems to me that any high quality 2-channel preamp could be used, even if it lacked bypass, as one would simply have to calibrate all 5 channels with the volume control (on the 2-channel preamp) at some pre-determined position (12 O'Clock, for instance). While this would not bypass all circuitry, I don't think it would matter all that much for HT, especially since the 2-channel preamp would be of much higher quality than the preamp processor. Also, some 2-channel preamps (the Hovland, for example), while lacking a bypass, do have a unity gain setting, which I suppose is pretty close to having a bypass.

Excellent point but the TAP's flexibility and the ability to willingly integrate into your system with no need for extra calibrations is the better option of the two. If we were talking $1,000 or more for the TAP I might see your point but for $450-$550, it's a no brainer. Throw in the ability to have a DVD-Audio multi-channel player and a SACD multi-channel player at the same time without any compromise in sonics and ease of switching, why go any other way?
As far as the hum goes, I've never heard it on my unit. I bought mine from One Call.com.

 

[Larry B]

Charles and Martice:
Thanks to both of you for the information. I found it very helpful.
Charles:

This is interesting. I always thought unity gain WAS a bypass. I could be wrong but I think they are the same.

I suspect the difference, if there is one, might be in how many of the circuits are actually bypassed. As has been pointed out in other threads (by Saurav, if memory serves), even a unit which claims to have bypass may not be sonically silent. That is, the volume control is bypassed, but there may be (and usually are, I think) multiple switches in the path, each of which will alter the sound. In better units, with better switches, the coloration will be less.
Larry

 

[Martice]

That is, the volume control is bypassed, but there may be (and usually are, I think) multiple switches in the path, each of which will alter the sound. In better units, with better switches, the coloration will be less.

True indeed!! I think the quality parts was one of the points that Stereophile mentioned as being one of the TAP's strong points although I couldn't prove other wise even if I had the names of the parts in front of me. However, the bottom line is that for a Audio Switcher this unit is a no brainer.

** I have to go back to my owners manual but I think that the TAP can also be used with 7.1 processors as well. I'm thinking this because of the extra center and sub preouts on the back of the unit. Anyone want to chime in on this point? If this is the case, it's really hard to justify why you don't have this unit unless you have a receiver or you just don't have the funds.

 

[Dzung Pham]

The Stereophile website mentions different gain settings of 0dB, +6dB, and +12dB. I see the 6dB and 12dB indicators on the preamp as well. How are these used? Are these just adjusted with the volume knob or something else? Actually, if somebody could provide a link to the manual (if it's available) I would appreciate it, and I think others would be interested as well. Thanks again.

 

[BruceD]

This is interesting. I always thought unity gain WAS a bypass. I could be wrong but I think they are the same.

Unity gain essentially means passing the signal without any attenuation or gain. All 2-channel active preamp volume controls have a position where this condition is met (I don't have any experience with passive preamps).

In my case the volume control's "unity gain" position was designed to happen at exactly 12 o'clock. This makes it very easy for me to synchronize the preamps volume control for HT listening.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Bruce, I do recall having the Cambridge Audio C500 at the 12 o'clock position when I tried this out. It sounded horrible for HT and gave me an echo that was worse in some of the TA-E9000es modes. Are you sure all 2 channel active preamps have a postion where this condition is met? And it would seem that turning the volume to the 12 o'clock postion would require some attenuation or gain.

Maybe I just screwed up the demo. Anyway, getting just the 2 channel preamp and doing it the way you described(even if I didn't perceive a degradation) wouldn't have given me the 2 5.1 analog bypass inputs the P9000es provides.

 

[BruceD]

Charles,

Here is an interesting test; if you try using the analog out of a CD player or DVD player (a full signal output not a variable output) directly into your amps you will typically find very loud output -- only try this if you have output level controls on the amp turned down, because it is typically VERY LOUD!!!!!.

In other words, many source components are driving a pretty strong (loud) signal into the switching control devices (preamps) and thus mostly need attenuation not amplification from the volume control. In fact passive preamps only provide attenuation of the source signal they cannot amplify the source signal at all.

This is also why an active preamps volume control may actually be at "unity" gain at the 12 o'clock position -- neither attenuating nor amplifying the signal from the source. Which means the preamps initial volume control positions from say 6 to 12 o'clock (complete silence to unity gain) are only reducing the amount of attenuation from maximum to zero.

Using the preamps unity gain position to start the 75dB HT speaker calibration sequence with Video Essentials and the processor should give a completely balanced 5.1 soundfield just as if the 2-channel preamp wasn't there. It certainly does in my case and many others I've talked to who use this marriage of 2-channel preamp + processor.

. . . wouldn't have given me the 2 5.1 analog bypass inputs the P9000es provides.

I agree, that is a really good reason to get the TAP.

 

[Martice]

Maybe I just screwed up the demo. Anyway, getting just the 2 channel preamp and doing it the way you described(even if I didn't perceive a degradation) wouldn't have given me the 2 5.1 analog bypass inputs the P9000es provides.

I agree especially for the price of the TAP unit. Even if you are half serious about audio regardless if it's HT/2-channel, I assume that you'd like to make sure that you have the best sound available and would like to do so with as few compromises technically and sonically possible. I think this is what makes the TAP so great with the flexibilty it provides without obvious degradation of the sound of your system.

 

[Saurav]

I think one point that needs to be made here is that the TAP unit provides passive bypass. In other words, the bypass works even if the unit is switched off. This means that there are only RCA connectors and internal switches/relays in the signal path, maybe some resistors.
In comparision, the bypass mode on most pre/pros (AFAIK) only bypasses the digital processing. That is a far cry from a passive bypass, because you still have all (or a fair amount) of the prepro's active analog circuitry in the signal path - opamps, transistors, whatever. This may or may not be a bad thing, but by definition it cannot be cleaner than not having those components in the first place. The best preamp can just hope to pass the input signal through unchanged (except for volume), no preamp can actually improve the signal in any way.
Of course, a passive bypass or passive preamp has its own set of problems, many of which can be easly solved by using an active stage somewhere in the signal path. But, that's a whole different story.

 

[Martice]

Here's a very good link to the TAP unit.
Enjoy.
LINK

 

[John_KM]

Hello All,
Martice, may I just thank you for your most kind welcome. I must say that I've been enjoying reading the posts on this forum, and find it entertaining, and useful, as in gaining an appreciation of HT as against just 2 channel, and again feel that there is a nice group of people here, which is important.
BruceD, I was intrigued to hear of your experiences integrating 2 channel with HT. I appreciate the advantages of the TAP 9000ES re integrating 2ch & HT as a switching device, but have had two concerns. One, as music is my primary interest, or at least the area where I feel in the abscense of the visual element to 'fill in the gaps' in the sound, the most critical as regards the 'purity/accuracy' of the sound etc, thoughts of putting anything at all between a high quality 2ch pre, and its power amp, cause slight concern. I would've thought that any circuit, switch, whatever, no matter what the quality, would have a deleterious effect upon the sound in some way for the 2ch side. Then there's the question of what interconnets to use, etc etc.
The other thought, is that I use Naim-Audio equipment. They have a very 'individualistic' approach to system wiring, which would effectively rule out using the TAP9000ES between the Naim pre, and it's matching power amp. Hence, I am left with doing something that as I've understood it, seems very similar to what you are doing with your setup. I'm looking at purchasing the TAE9000ES, and possibly the TAN9000ES as well. I anticipate running the DVD into the proccessor, and preouts for front L & R to the Naim preamp, and Center, and surround L&R rears to the TAN amp. Balancing all up via setting Naim preamp to approx 12 oclock, and then using test tones. Naim also make a very high end processor, out of my $$ reach, and the latest preamps have a unity gain feature on the appropriate AV input, but otherwise, this is the setup they recommend for their own processor and the earlier preampw.
I was concerned about this, re the sound quality re 'dual processing' - ie putting the main L&R fronts through effectively two preamps, as pointed out by Charles, but, if I've understood you correctly as to the way your using/setup your system, you've not noticed any negative effects this way?
I didn't realise that the vol. pot actually attenuated the signal. I just thought it provided gain. Silly me. Now it makes sense about the 12'oclock position. With the Naim, on CD, at 12 oclock, I'm sure one would be into 'clipping' on peaks, max output on CD is around the 10 - 11 oclock position, - 9 oclock is as much as I ever use. So I was trying to figure out why one would use 12'o'clock to set this so called unity gain feature.
Anyway, I'm slowly picking these things up.
So it sounds, if I've understood your post/system setup correctly, that I shouldn't have too many probs setting up this way. Fantastic, thanks for all the great information here.
Cheers all,
John.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

John, you say the Naim doesn't use the standard RCA type connections from the preamp to the amp but it does take standard RCA's for INPUT into the preamp? That in itself seems to have backed you in a corner, so to speak. I know you probably are not interested in a converter of some type (or even if its possible) but it could be helpful.

I think I will look into just what connection the Naim uses just out of curiosity. Also, JFYI, the Sony TA-N9000es amp also includes a seperate 2 channel input that can be used for a seperate 2 channel amp, very similar to what the P9000es allows. With the proper converter/connector you could input the Naim into this 2 channel input as well. The N9000es is very unique in this regard. I know of no other amp that has this feature. Of course since you use the Naim amp for you front main speakers (and won't use the N9000es in this regard), this wouldn't be of any use. Good luck!

 

[BruceD]

John,

Yes, I echo your concerns about 2-channel reproduction.

FYI, my 2-channel preamp volume control's 9 o'clock position produces SPL levels of 80-90dB at my listening position for most of my CD listening.

When using the VE calibration DVD for my 5.1 speaker calibration, I found that in order to get 75dB on the SPL meter from the main speakers, I needed to turn the 2-channel preamp's volume control all the way up to the 12 o'clock position.

 

[John_KM]

Hello again all,
Charles, just a note to clarify the Naim wiring. The preamp uses BNC's for the phonos, and all other inputs use a special high quality DIN style plug, with a special locking collar. The preamp power supply, and the power amp, also use this type of DIN connection. The AC mains Power cables are all plug in non captive leads. The amp uses female bannana plug style speaker outlets, used with their own proprietary plugs, or similar to fit the female sockets, I think they're pretty much the standard 4mm socket.
The signal FROM the preamp, goes to the preamp power supply, passes through it, and on to the power amp. At the same time, DC from the preamp power supply passes up through this same 5 wire/core cable to power the preamp per se. All these are custom made leads, all with the same type of locking DIN plugs, and marked for direction, and a set length for the best performance. Hence the difficulties in attempting to say somehow make up some sort of custom lead to enable DC to reach the preamp from it's supply, whilst routing the signal from the Naim preamp, through the TAP9000ES, and on to it's (naim) amplifier.
Hope that clarifies things a little. I realise this creates difficulties in trying to 'fit in' other components like the TAP9000ES, however, I'ts done for a reason, as Naim from a philosophical point of view aim for the best possible sound without compromise, and hence everything in a Naim 'system' is tailored to get the maximum performance from each part of the system, which includes the individual components, but also the leads, connnections, etc. They even make their own support tables. The idea is that basically by aiming for a system where the sum of the parts exceeds the whole, and designing for the interaction of each component. Of course, that leads to difficulties occasionally when attempting to integrate other equipment, but, I personally don't mind, as I've always been a music lover first, and a tweaker second. I've had a lot of years experience in 2 channnel, and feel, thank goodness that my tweaking days are largely over. Depite the disadvantages, I don't have to worry about whether I'm using the best cables, plugs etc, that's all taken care of, and I just enjoy the exceptionally musical result.
Anyway, far be it from me to seem as if I'm trying to sell Naim; not at all, I realise it'd not be everyones cup of tea, but I love it, and wouldn't want to change it. So you see, where that leaves me, re integrating an AV processor. Incidentally, from an purely electrical point of view, things like my arcam tuner, and the DVP9000ES DVD player fit in very well, just need a lead made up with RCA's at one end, and a DIN at the other. (It's a standard size DIN, but I use a high quality DIN accessory plug supplied by my dealer)
For connecting say the TAE9000ES to the Naim, there are leads from the English company Chord, which have the appropriate DIN to RCA plugs on a high quality 'audiophile' lead.
Interestingly, the one integrated amp that they make, the Nait, uses RCA's on the phonos, to give greater market compatability at it's price point, trading of a slight loss of performance as against the BNC's. And to almost be completely difficult, the top of the line poweramp, uses XLR's between the preamp power supply and the power amp. Check out www.Naim-Audio.com if you'd like to get the run down on the technical reasons for their wiring and system approach if you're interested. It's a great site, with a good forum as well. Anyway, sorry to be longwinded, but hope that helps.
BruceD, thanks for your kind and helpful comments. May I ask what the calibration DVD is that you refer to? I have a Tandy (Radio Shack in US) sound pressure level meter, and would be interested in the Disc if it would be of assistance in setting things up.
Thanks once again for taking the time to write in, sorry about the lengthy post,
Take Care all,
Cheers,
John.

 

[BruceD]

John,

Either one of 2 calibration DVDs will do:

1) Video Essentials (only one available when I bought it)
or
2) AVIA

You can search for either one at amazon.com or your favorite DVD web source.

 

[AndyHangartner]

Hi guys,
new to this site, but been "lurking" a little while. I use a Denon 4802 and have the AH! tube 4000 cd player which has adjustable volume from the remote. I use external amps and found that when I hook the cdp directly to the amps and bypass the denon totally (for experiment) let me tell you. The soundstaging and detail, the being there affect, is absolutely astounding. It totally blows away the cdp through the denon (and yes I used the pure direct mode).It makes you not want to listen to the cdp without it. But it takes cable changes to accomplish w/o a seperate pre.The TAP sounds intriguing. Who has the best pricing?
Thanks to all you guys/gals with informative posts.
andy

 

[Martice]

I got mine from Onecall.com for $550. However, you can get them cheaper from Oade.com but I'm not sure if they are authorized sellers though.

I am using my Cd player going through my (passive) 2-channel bypass input and it's wonderful.

Good Luck.

 

[AndyHangartner]

thanks martice. btw are there any good threads on HT prepro comparison? What I mean is, such as the denon or the TAE9000 or recievers etc, in how well they do in the different sounfields etc. I would think the E9000 with all the sony knowledge would be incredible but I don't really see any posts about this. Everyone is talking about the 2 channel portion of their processor. Even the Lexicon MC1 I hear is great for 7.1 but not so good at 2 channel. It would be hard to justify the amount if it doesn't blow the Sony for instance. I for one am not into the THX hype so even a Harmon Reciever has what they call Logic 7.
any direction or insight would be most appreciated. I haven't been too happy with my Denon and not using the internal amps or the CD input makes it an overpriced HT processor.
thanks for your time
andy

 

[ling_w]

Joined this discussion late. Anyway, Unity gain with in volume setting situations are not really unity gain, since the signal are decreased by the voltage divider in the volumke knob before going to a fixed gain amplification stage. Real unity gain are no more than buffer stages.

Also, does the TAP use high precison 6-ganged pot or does the volume knob feed a single voltage to each of the 6 driver stages, which would have to consist of VCA's to do the gain control?

High precision 6 gang pot is humongous in size and nortoriously expensive to implement, probably more than the retail price of the Sony. While VCA volume control are nortoriously bad sounding. Lastly used in those receivers of the mid 80's, where up and down volume buttons were used.

 

[John_KM]

Hello All,

It's interesting Andy, to hear of your experiences with 2 channel re routing through the Denon, or going direct to your power amp. Personally, as I am coming from 2 channel and considering adding on HT, I don't like the idea of so called pure pass through circuits etc, as extra plugs, leads, and the connections themselves are all going to sublty alter the sound. I can't see even a high quality receiver being much good at this, when you think of all the attendant noise emitting devices if not in the signal chain per se, then nearby, ie Magnetic fields of transformers, digital noise from microprocessors etc.

I guess it depends on where your priorities lie. To me, music is personally more important than HT, and I feel the sound requirements much more critical, therefore conceptually I'd keep the two as seperate as possible. Others meanwhile, whos interest is more HT focused seem happy to route 2 channel as an add on through their HT systems. To each his own. May I ask out of curiousity, as they're supposed to be a top machine, what it is that you don't like about the Denon?

Hi Ling, it sounds as if you have a more technical knowledge of things like so called unity gain. I'm wondering if you may be able to explain this a little more. I've been wondering about this, as I normally play music (CD) at about a maximum effective volume level of around 9 o'clock on my Naim preamp; clipping would be around the 10-11 mark. Yet, when coupling up with the Naim AV2 processor, they recommend for my particular preamp, which doesn't have the so called unity gain feature of the later models, that the volume control should be set to approximately 12 o'clock, which seems very high. Have you any technical explanation for this? Would be most interested to know what goes on here, as others appear to have to set volume controls etc to similar otherwise (normal listening) exceptionally high levels when balancing up an external processor with a two channel preamp.

Cheers all,

John.