Pro/Poweramp vs. AV receiver+power amp (1 Viewer)

[MichaelDDD]

Hi all,

After many years, I'm finally getting a dedicated AV room and need to start over with my processing/amplification since my old Denon AVR-3803 is now doing easy 5.1 duty in the family room. SpongeBob and Paw Patrol in glorious simulated 5.1 isn't all it's cracked up to be, but we roll with the punches, you know?

I need processing and 5.1 amplification. My budget is roughly $2K-ish. Sources are your basic BluRay player and cable box with HDMI outs.

I have a full complement of Axiom speakers: M22 L/R, VP150 center and QS8 surrounds. My sub is an old SVS PB2-plus. All have been in storage for years now, just recently hooked up to verify they are all still good and they are. They weren't cheap when new and they still sound great.

I was thinking about getting the cheapest Denon (I like Denon) AVR I can find with dedicated pre-outs, and a 5-channel amp like the Emotiva XPA-5. Afterall, I'd only be using the AVR for processor duties. This would work, sure. Or, I could get a dedicated processor, like the Emotive UMC-200 and pair it with their multichannel amp.

But am I missing anything but not going say, with a higher-end AVR to be used as both the processor and power amp? I honestly had zero complaints about my Denon 3803 powering the aforementioned Axiom noisemakers back in the day, but I have a hard time swallowing the $1.2K+ they want these days for an AVR that will do 100+WPC, all channels driven.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[David Willow]

New Denon X4000 is less than $1000 right now (blowing out older models). I have it powering my Axiom M60's, VP100, and QS8's without any problem in my smallish-medium (1800 cubic feet) room.

I guess the question is how big is the new room?

 

[MichaelDDD]

Hi Dave,

The new room is 21'x17' (wider than it is deep based on where the screen would go) with an 8-foot ceiling. I like it loud, no doubt about that. Thanks for the recommendation of the X4000; I will check it out. I've not kept up with much in the HT world in the past 5+ years, save for the Benq W1200 Projector I bought a few years ago...it's not had much use either.

Being that whatever video processing I use will be limited to 1080p due to the projector, I guess that leaves my options sort of open.

 

[schan1269]

You could also buy an avr and just get a 120-150 watt 2 channel amp. Then run center/surround off the AVR. All AVR, that include preouts, aren't going to have a problem keeping up with 120-150...if all they are powering is 3 speakers.

 

[MichaelDDD]

True, that would work, but in my opinion, that is not the best idea. Different amps have different sensitivities, power reserves, voicing etc. You'd never get all the channels exactly identical. That's why I'm either going with separates and a 5-channel amp, or just picking up an AVR. I'll do some more researching this weekend as I've been out of the game for a long time now. It's shocking to see what a midrange/100WPC, all channels driven AVR goes for these days.

 

[schan1269]

True, that would work, but in my opinion, that is not the best idea. Different amps have different sensitivities, power reserves, voicing etc. You'd never get all the channels exactly identical. That's why I'm either going with separates and a 5-channel amp, or just picking up an AVR. I'll do some more researching this weekend as I've been out of the game for a long time now. It's shocking to see what a midrange/100WPC, all channels driven AVR goes for these days.

I do the 2 channel amp in three of my setups...Onkyo SR707; Technics SU G90 and Polk S(1997 era?). Onkyo NR708(front channel); Kenwood M2A and DCM TF600.(rear channel) Sony TA N110 and DCM TF350. So the 708 only runs the center and width.Denon 4810; Adcom 6535(I think) and Wharfedale W60e(on all 5 channels).Hard pressed to tell any difference in front to rear channel. Except for the thunderous amount of headroom.The Denon/W60e is a wondrous mix. The set up is...Denon main preouts to a Dahlquist LP1(crossover), high side to the Adcom feeding the W60e. Low goes to another crossover set 50hz. Above 50* and up to 110(which is, I think, where LP1 is) goes to a NAD which runs two passive 8" drivers on the floor under each W60e. The 50** and lower goes to a Marantz monoblock into a 15" JL in a sealed box.The W60e don't do much under 100hz, even though they have a large woofer. Send them 80hz and they don't like it.*50-110 is still right and left.**50 and under is mono.

 

[Al.Anderson]

The receiver/amp combo is pretty common, you won't have problems with sync/configuration. On the other hand, it's mostly needed when you have main speakers that are 4 ohm and need a stronger amp for them. I don't think you'll need that for the Axioms.

That said, when I got my M22s the Axiom guy said "they like power" and I found that to be true; I tried a slimline Marantz amp and the system was much improved when I swapped it out for a regular Yamaha (it could have been the differing circuitry, but I think it was just the power boost).

By the way, don't know how old your Axioms are, but they are up to v4 now which were advertised as having a better tweeter and crossover. They used to have an upgrade deal you might want to look into.

 

[MichaelDDD]

Thanks for the info on the updated M22's. I had noticed on Axiom's site that they said "V4". Mine are most probably V1.0 because I bought them in 2003. Yeah, they are that old. But they have been in storage for a total of 7 years, on and off since 2003 They were last used (along with the rest of my Axiom/SVS setup) for about 2 months, 2 years ago. It's a long story that I can tell you all over some virtual beer someday.
When last used, the whole setup was perfect; just as I'd remembered them being. I'll have a peek at their trade-in/up program, but doubt I'll take advantage of it as there will a lot of cash spent on a new pro/amp or AVR as well as a screen and acoustical treatment for the room.

To get back on topic, I'm still looking at what I'm going to do. Accessories4less.com has a Denon AVR-X4000 refurb (w/1year warranty) for $600/free shipping. That would "future proof" me for 4K pass through/processing and gives me the 5.1/7.1 preouts I would need should I also decide to get dedicated amplification. I am finding out that at least Denon does not make lower-end AVRs with preouts. Denon's lower end AVRs have no preouts at all, from what I can tell. I have looked at dedicated processors like Emotiva's UMC-2000 but it doesn't have 4K passthrough, which is something I want to have for the probably not too distant future.

Thanks for reading all this and for all your ideas. It's nice to be back here.

 

[schan1269]

Onkyo used to have preouts starting on the 70X(lowest MSRP tier of anybody). Now the 1030 does, as lowest cost(I think...).If hdmi 1.4 what you want(and 4k passthrough is going to be sketchy with HDCP 2.2). Why not look for an older Onkyo 708/808, 709/809?Preouts on the older Onkyo only moved up once the 828 arrived.I suggest going older for one reason. It will sting less to replace when(not if) the 4K doesn't actually pass.

 

[MichaelDDD]

Hi Sam,

I'm not current on the latest standards, other than I know HDMI 1.4 is the latest and 4K projectors are really expensive. I know nothing about HDCP 2.2...is that what 4K-capable devices use for copy protection? My desire for 4K pass through is so in the future, should I have a 4K source and a 4K projector/monitor, I can use the AVR or processor that I already have to pass that signal through, versus going straight from the source to the projector with the video, like I had to do with the Denon 3803 b/c it has no HDMI inputs/outputs.

I will have a look at the Onkyo models you mention. I do like that the Denon X4000 comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT. The job it does setting delay times, EQ for each channel, etc is far beyond what I could do with my Radio Shack analog SPL meter from 1995 or whenever I bought it.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[schan1269]

4k isn't finalized. Trying to "future proof", even if you bought a new Denon, Yamaha...etc, is futile.Even the current version HDMI 2.0 has two camps...Lots of 1.4 owners, who bought expecting a "seamless 4K transition", are going to be sorely surprised.Yamaha, at least, now has a 4K warning on their website about the lack of HDCP 2.2.

 

[MichaelDDD]

Wow, that's good info to know. Thanks much!

I guess then, I am looking for a front-end (AVR or discrete processor) that has 7.1 preouts, one of the better versions of Audyssey and is as current/compliant as is needed for now. Being that I'm allotting $2K for this, that does leave me some wiggle room. I.E. I could get a higher-end AVR and be done or some kind of processor/lower-end AVR and pair it with a beast amp like an Emotiva XPA-5.

 

[MichaelDDD]

Well, I guess this is a good start. I grabbed a refurb Denon AVR-X4000 off Accessories4less.com. I normally don't buy refurb gear, but it's got a 1-year warranty, Audessey Platinum and a decent amount of wattage. It's also got the all-important 7.1 pre amp outs, should I need to add an outboard amp...which I may do anyway. It will be awhile before the gear is installed, but I think this is a good start.

 

[David Willow]

Good choice. Unless your room is huge, the X4000 will not have a problem powering those Axioms to ear bleeding levels.

 

[MichaelDDD]

Thanks, Dave. I'm all about Reference Level and beyond with the right movies. I'll try the Denon on it's own for awhile and if I feel it's lacking, I'll get a 5-channel amp. The room is a good size (17' deep x 22' wide x 9' high), (9-ft ceiling, not 8 as I previously stated) so I'm going to need the wattage the X4000 has. I plan on treating the room with homemade panels, heavy curtains, etc, so that will help the sound as well.

 

[schan1269]

You'll be cooking along at (roughly) 33wpc to achieve 100db in the center of the room(using a calc that assumes an acoustically neutral room...ie, typical living room with curtains over the windows, pictures on the wall and two couches).

 

[MichaelDDD]

That works for me. 33wpc is roughly 25% of what the X4000 allegedly puts out, theoretically leaving plenty of oomph in reserve for transients. Assuming the whole "factory refurbished" thing works out, of course. If it didn't come with a 1-year warranty I wouldn't have went with the refurb. We shall see how it all works out.

 

[schan1269]

I noted on another thread, that Pioneer Elite SC receivers now have a "simultaneous drive power" rating. On the 81 it works out to 80wpc...while rated 120x7.The 89 is rated 140x9, with a pool(if memory serves) of 850...which you divide by 5, 7 or 9...

 

[MichaelDDD]

Thanks, Sam. I should be OK with the Denon on it's own then, assuming the internal amps are all up to snuff.

On a side note: What is happiness? Happiness is discovering that the AVR refurb you purchased for $600 just two days ago has gone up in price to $650. Boo-yah!