Pioneer Elite dvd players: Do they have the chroma-upsampling error?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Brad Newton, Feb 5, 2003.

  1. Brad Newton

    Brad Newton Second Unit

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    I thought that I read that the non elite models displayed the chroma bug......but what about the elite models?
     
  2. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    The Elite 45A is said to have it, but I defy anyone to actually see it with any of the test scenes that are listed in Secrets.

    As you can guess, I have a 45A, and with the scenes from 5th Element and Toy Story, I see nothing like the samples shown over at Secrets. I am talking a 53" WS properly calibrated (but not ISF'd) display.

    I guess it boils down to that fact that not all players with the problem will show it to the same degree. I don't think I have ever seen what they say I should see. I have 3 players in my system (a Sony 3000 1st Generation player, a Sony DVP-650D, and the Pioneer).

    Perhaps I should be happy about that and keep my head in the sand!?!

    BGL
     
  3. Jantzen

    Jantzen Stunt Coordinator

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    Brian,

    I agree with you about the chroma bug on the 45a...

    I briefly hooked up my 45A via progressive input on my 61" Sony HDTV... I checked out Toy Story 2 menus and select scenes I didn't notice the chroma bug...

    I still use my Panasonic RP-56 for video duties - I think it's mainly psychological, because I know it handles progressive scan and the chroma bug properly...

    I do know what the chroma bug looks like as I used to have a Toshiba 5109 which really showed it - there was no missing it on Toy Story...

    I guess it's there on the Pioneer, but to my eyes it doesn't seem too severe...
     
  4. Carl Mulder

    Carl Mulder Stunt Coordinator

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    Im sorry dvd has been out for what 5 years and we are still dealing with chroma bugs.
    Does anybody else think that this is disgraceful?
    Check Denons new chroma free players, 9000 and 3800, and the new 2900. chroma free and great players, do yourself a fovour and get one.
     
  5. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Yes, all Pioneer players have it, but from what I've read, it is less apparent on them as on other manufacturer's players that have it. I've been using Pioneer players for 5 years, and I have yet to see it either. ('Course, I really haven't gone looking for it either, but at least in regular viewing, I've never noticed it.) 32" direct view TV calibrated with Avia.

    I think it was the Denon 3800, that originally had it? And then there was a firmware upgrade that "improved" it, but didn't get rid of it, and only the most current machines shipped with the fix? How much is the 3800?
     
  6. Burke Strickland

    Burke Strickland Second Unit

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    I have been using the Pioneer Elite DV-F07 for a couple of years now, and although it supposedly has the chroma bug, I have not really seen it -- and I HAVE been looking for it. I've played almost all the scenes identified on the "Secrets" site and various threads about it here and elsewhere as being the glaring examples of the problem, and even projected on my 10 foot diagonal 16:9 screen, I don't really see it as a problem.

    There was one place in Toy Story, for example, where a particular color was supposed to bleed into another, but the jagged edge I saw in this case could be an artifact from the still frame procedure. In normal use, (IOW, playing the movie straight through), it isn't noticeable at all.

    One of my friends showed me what the chroma bug looked like on a different brand DVD-player via his projection system on some of the same DVDs and it sure was noticeable there. Bad enough that he later replaced the player. I'm still quite pleased with the performance of my Pioneer Elite DVD player, chroma bug or no chroma bug.
     
  7. Don Munsil

    Don Munsil Stunt Coordinator

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    Burke,

    The DV-F07 is an interlaced player. Given that you're using a 10 foot diagonal screen, I assume you're running it through a scaler. If that scaler is based on Faroudja technology, it will hide the chroma bug. There are other scalers that will also hide the bug. If I plug an interlaced player into my Sony VW10HT, the bug largely disappears, because it has no film mode and never really shows you the full vertical chroma resolution.

    Best,
    Don
     
  8. Carl Mulder

    Carl Mulder Stunt Coordinator

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    well the denon 2900 is out in april/may which is a replica of the 3800, but it has dvd audio and sacd.
    1000 dollars.
     
  9. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Don- If you're watching this thread. I read a simplified version of what the chroma bug is, and you allude to the answer to my question up above too:

    If I play an DVD through an S-video connection (interlaced, not progressive) on a std analog direct view TV, will I see the chroma bug?

    I *thought* it was only related to progressive scan/3:2 pulldown and stuff, but I wasn't sure.

    Thanks.
     
  10. Don Munsil

    Don Munsil Stunt Coordinator

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    Kevin,

    You can see the chroma bug on an interlaced display, but it's often harder to see because the normal interlace artifacts tend to overwhelm it. (I once saw it in a motel on a 17" analog TV. It was Sesame Street via DishNetwork, and the chroma bug was terrible. Elmo is really red, and it was all over him.)

    Don
     
  11. Dave Ma

    Dave Ma Stunt Coordinator

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    Check Denons new chroma free players, 9000 and 3800, and the new 2900

    To my knowledge they have the bug too.
     
  12. Don Munsil

    Don Munsil Stunt Coordinator

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    The Denon 3800 and 9000 with the latest firmware do not have any chroma bug at all. The 2900 isn't out yet.

    Don
     
  13. Craig Luekenga

    Craig Luekenga Auditioning

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    I have the 47a and it has the chroma bug. I tried
    the 47ai and it has it also. On my 73" screen
    the chroma bug can be very nasty, and finally
    decided that enough was a enough and now have the
    Denon 3800, and like it a lot.

    Be aware that the 47ai,45a and the Denon 3800 have
    very low sub output in all formats out of the
    5.1 outputs, not just the DVD-A that some have
    suggested. Denon is experimenting on a fix for
    the low sub output on the 3800.
     
  14. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    Craig,

    The low LFE issue is not limited to Pioneer and Denon. I think I have read posts from users of almost ALL universal or SACD/DVD-V players reporting similar issues. Also, doesn't Denon include a switchable LFE boost on some of there receivers to address the problem?

    I wish that low LFE issue were given as much attention as the chroma bug, since not everyone with a problem player will see the chroma bug, but if your LFE is low, your gonna know it!

    I would love to see a clear, concise, scientific investigation into why so many players have low LFE. There is lots of speculation (missing DD +10, DTS tracks that are mixed 10 dB too hot, etc.), but I have yet to read anything from any manufacturer that puts it all to bed.

    Perhaps when the chroma dragon has been slain, the guys behind that investigation can move on to low LFE. There expertise and attention to detail would be welcome, not to mention the fact they they do get the industries attention!

    Then again, depending on you system, there are workarounds available for LFE issues by tweaking 6CH input levels, and/or sub amp levels. Of course, there is also the ICBM, but the reason that fixes the problem is that it has a sub trip pot (+/- 9 dB) or so. Perhaps that is why its not been such a big deal, expect for the folks that own the players in question.

    BGL
     
  15. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Carl,

    While the 2900 shares a very similar chassis, it is not the same internally as the 3800 or 9000.

    For starters, it was designed by a different team, for finishers, it doesn't use the same MPEG decoder.

    Regards,
     
  16. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    *My* 47ai (and others I know for a fact as well) does *not* have the low sub output. It is the difference between DD/DTS with the inherent 10 dB boost, and SACD/DVD-A which do not.

    I compensate for it by setting the volume knob on my sub such that I get a -5 dB sub level setting on my pre/pro with digital DD/DTS, and on the 47ai, I set it to +5 dB. Works just fine...

    Don- Thanks!
     
  17. Craig Luekenga

    Craig Luekenga Auditioning

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    My 3800 is more than 10db down from the sub compared
    to the other channels. It is 17db down with DD signals
    compared to the other channels when I compare the
    settings of the Denon to my Mcintosh MX 134 using
    Video Essentials. The 47ai was about the same as the
    Denon, it was around 15db to low if I remember
    correctly. When I played DVD-A it definitely did
    not have enough bass, my HGS18 driver would barely
    move. If there is nothing wrong why are you compensating
    for the bass. IMO if the DVD player and bass management
    are designed correctly you shouldn't have to compensate
    for the differences in the the signal format, it should
    do it automatically. If they can't do that at least give me
    the 10db and let me turn it down myself!

    Setting the sub volume higher and then turning it
    down in the set up menu on the MX 134 doesn't work.
    When you do this on the MX 134 you gain nothing
    because when you do this you are turning the volume
    down from the 7.1 input as well. I don't know about
    all receivers or prepro's but I imagine that most
    work in the same manner. This makes since because
    the volume control for each channel should be right
    before the output from each channel. I know that
    when I check test tones from the DVD players that
    I don't have to balance the channels because they
    are already equal in all channels except the sub
    because they have already been balanced in the set
    up of the MX 134. The test tones in a receiver or
    prepro set the initial volume for each channel so
    that what ever input you use you will get equal
    volume from each channel and this should include
    the 5.1 input also. I'm not sure that your turn the sub up and reduce your set up volume actually works, at least in mine it doesn't but maybe in your particular system
    it does. Have you ever checked it with Video Essentials?
     
  18. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Craig- VE has the inherent 10 dB boost because it is a DD disc. How can you calibrate SACD/DVD-A from that? The *test tone* itself for the sub in the 47ai is hosed. But by using Avia for DD/DTS and adjusting levels in my pre/pro, and this disc for SACD/DVD-A for levels in the 47ai:

    http://www.chesky.com/catalog/body_c...274&CATEGORY=1

    I got everything to work. It really surprised me, because even though Avia and the CHesky disc don't have the exact same test tones, I still got the 10 dB difference that exists.

    Yes, I do turn my sub volume *up* 1st for the DD/DTS levels to get -5 dB, then when I adjust to +5 (or 6) in the 47ai, works perfectly. The 5.1 inputs on the 950 pre/pro are simple pass through. So I can adjust the "digital" sub level in the 950 without it affecting the "analog" sub level from the 47ai.
     
  19. John Cain

    John Cain Second Unit

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  20. Phil Nichols

    Phil Nichols Second Unit

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    John,

    You may have read in some other posts what I did to get rid of my 3800's Y/C Delay for around $30: Just use Pr and Pb cables about 20 feet longer than your Y cable. You can see the Y/C Delay go away right on the AVIA Y/C Delay yellow/red screen.
     

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