Pioneer DV-45A does not have bass management (1 Viewer)

[Kevin C Brown]

I believe that with proper BM, you don't need the LFE channel. You just go full range wherever you want, and crossover wherever you want to the sub. Unfortunately, the presence of the LFE channel in addition to the bass crossed over from the mains does have a tendency to confuse some hardware manufacturers...

 

[Lewis Besze]

I believe that with proper BM, you don't need the LFE channel. You just go full range wherever you want, and crossover wherever you want to the sub. Unfortunately, the presence of the LFE channel in addition to the bass crossed over from the mains does have a tendency to confuse some hardware manufacturers.

Exactly, I would also add "consumers" to the end of that sentence.

 

[Steve_AS]

Boy, did I ever open a freakin' can or worms.
If you want to join the LFE or No LFE discussion, here is the thread that I referenced.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...4&highlight=LFE

THe same debate, at a perhaps a more technical level, is going on in one of the mixing/proaudio web forums as well.
http://www.musicgearnetwork.com/ubb/...;f=16;t=000269

 

[Steve_AS]

Our 45A, when tested with the Chesky Ultimate DVD test tones, fails that test with DVD-A. It appears to work OK with DD sources.

And, btw, I'm still waiting for Chesky to call me back with an explanation of what's recorded on that track (they;ve promised me they would).

I want to find out what's happening on the DVD_A BM test track (#34,) because, based on all the other discs I've tested, turning off the sub in the 45a's speaker installation menu as directd by Chesky, should result in NO OUTPUT from the sub. That's what happens with every other DVD-A disc I've tested....EXCEPT the Chesky DVD-A tracks. With every DVD-A disc except the CHesky, sub off = NO SUB OUTPUT. Only the Chesky continues to pump out bass when the sub is set to OFF.

Now, setting sub OFF in the DV-45a *also* equals no .1 channel redirection to the other speakers for DVD-A tracks, as far as I can tell, so in any event the 45a *does* fail that aspect of DVD-A bass management (.1-->mains when sub is off). But its behavior with the Chesky disc remains enigmatic.

 

[Brian L]

I want to find out what's happening on the DVD_A BM test track (#34,) because, based on all the other discs I've tested, turning off the sub in the 45a's speaker installation menu as directed by Chesky, should result in NO OUTPUT from the sub.

That would depend on the main speaker settings as well, right?

If I had my mains set to small, and sub was off (not really a valid combination, I suppose), I would expect no output at the Sub. Sub off/mains large should redirect to the mains, which as you say, does not seem to work with the Chesky test.

I think, though I would not guaranty, that mains small/sub on also does not work, at least with the Chesky 4.0 disc. It seems with the Chesky disc, bass is not redirected in either direction with their 4.0 stuff.

Its hard to tell whats going on with other discs, because we usually do not know what bass is present on the main tracks and of the LFE track. And on the Telarc Weather Report Tribute, I think they actually double up, as evidenced by a note in the booklet.

Standards? We don't need to stinkin' standards! NOT!!!!!

Very eager to learn what Chesky has to say. It would suck if their authoring was hosed and everything we thought we knew was wrong!

BGL

 

[dave alan]

Whether or not any of the 6 channels is 'needed' is not the issue. We have 6 channels.

At issue is what to do with them, in particular, the 6th, or .1 channel.

LFE, or Low Frequency Enhancenment (or Effects, which I personally think better describes it) is the idea that producers and engineers seem to have difficulty with.

At the end of 'Sgt. Pepper' are a few seconds of 15 KHz. tone put there 'especially to annoy your dog' by John Lennon. Imagine what those maniacs might have done if they had an LFE channel that they knew would be properly channeled to a discrete LFE sub for reproduction?

At this point, to say definitively how the format should, or can, be used is to assume a heck of alot of responsibility.

I'm only saying that it should be made to work mechanically. Let the artists say what to put there. Allow the consumer to decide which artists' uses of the infinite MC pallete suit them. But, by all means, have the mechanics of it configured to reproduce the material to it's best potential. Otherwise, the artist's power to create has been usurped by the engineers. (Can you say Back Street?)

If you run 5 'full range' sats, you have a discrete LFE 6th channel. Why must it be that, if you run 5 'small' sats, you no longer have a discrete LFE channel? It mustn't. And it isn't complicated at all to remedy this.

 

[Brian L]

OK, one more time......
If you want to debate whether or not a discrete LFE should be used, or how it should or should not be used, please do it here:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...4&highlight=LFE
Or, start your own thread.
This thread is for the endless discussion of the BM functions of the Pioneer 45A
Thank you for you consideration.
BGL

 

[FeisalK]

er, link doesn't work
try this one
I've resolved not to worry about my Pioneer 655A BM

 

[Brian L]

er, link doesn't work

Thanks! I did not know the link was hosed.

BGL

 

[dave alan]

Sorry BGL!

I did read through the entire 8 pages of this thread before I posted, which I thought might afford me 2 posts on the subject. I do apologize again for the rant(s).

Just a few thoughts:

1. TA: When TA is utilized to bring non-equidistant sats into alignment via delay, the redirected bass taken from the sats arrives at the sub at different times (when using analog BM such as the ICBM). In DVD-A/SACD formats, all 5 sats definitely contain bass info below the normal 80Hz X-over. So, you did hear a difference based on this condition. (Sorry if the link says the same thing, as I didn't read it)

2. I find it a bit odd that anyone would complain that $249 for an excellent analog BM unit (ICBM) is in any way an unnecessary expense (sorry, PLUS the 3 pr. of rca cables). I've recommended the 45a, installed them, added the ICBM, etc., for clients with a smaller MC budget and found the 45a/ICBM combo to be an excellent performer at a very good price.

3. I use a seperate preamp/LP/slope/phase/amp/sub for LFE only. I take the SW cable off the player (all spkrs set to 'large', sub to 'yes' in the player) into this system. The rest of the cables are sent to the ICBM (or Outlaw 950 pre/pro, which has analog BM built-in), which extracts the bass from the sats and sends it, with no LFE, to the redirected bass sub. Each sub's amp has a signal indicator light, so you never wonder if there is any LFE content at any point in the playback of any disc, or if the BM is sending the redirected bass to the RB sub. This system works perfectly with any DVD-A or SACD or combo player, with or without the player's ability to manage bass.

This means that the 45a's only drawback (to me) is that the manufacturer has claimed it has 'complete' BM, which no player I am aware of has.

In all of this thread, I am left with 1 question about the 45a that, hopefully, someone can answer: Is there a global LP on the LFE channel, and, if so, what is it? It was mentioned that it's 100 Hz./1st order for digital formats, but not made clear that it's the same for DVD-A/SACD.

 

[Steve_AS]

Very eager to learn what Chesky has to say. It would suck if their authoring was hosed and everything we thought we knew was wrong!

I'll call them again today.

 

[Steve_AS]

In all of this thread, I am left with 1 question about the 45a that, hopefully, someone can answer: Is there a global LP on the LFE channel, and, if so, what is it? It was mentioned that it's 100 Hz./1st order for digital formats, but not made clear that it's the same for DVD-A/SACD.

IN the Dec 2002 test report in Sound & Vision, Dave Ranada reports these data with all speakers set to small and channnel levels set to 0 (i.e., using the 'variable' setting). Dolby Digital was used as signals with a custome test disc, but results supposedly apply to DTS, DVD-A SACD, CD and MP3 as well (except as noted below):

subwoofer low-pass frequency response:
-12 dB/octave rolloff above -3-dB point of 100 Hz.

Main-channel hihg-pass frequency response:
-12 dB octave rolloff below -3-dB point of 100 Hz
(EXCEPT for SACD, where the slope changes to -6dB/octave)

max subwoofer output:
913 mV, 0.08% THD+N


Ranada also notes that time alignment (speaker distance settings) apply to all channels (including sub) and all media except SACD.

 

[Brian L]

I find it a bit odd that anyone would complain that $249 for an excellent analog BM unit (ICBM) is in any way an unnecessary expense (sorry, PLUS the 3 pr. of rca cables).

Well, in fairness to the complainers, having to spend 1/2 again what you paid for your player to achieve something that the player should be doing itself is a legit gripe, imho. But having spent the money, I would agree completely that the 45A/ICBM combo is a sweet rig.

I read some posts over at AVS forum about how the 45A excels with redbook CDs. I admit that since I got it, I had hardly ever put in a normal CD. So, I popped in a couple older titles (David Gilmour Solo CD, Elvis Costello remasters). I'll be damned, but they should a lot better than I recall them ever sounding.

Now, like in my TA pipe dream, I did not A/B testing, but I can say that the redbook performance when viewed alone had nothing to apologize for.

No argument with your arrangement for two subs, other than the fact that I lack a 2nd sub. I am not sure I see an advantage over a properly located and set-up single, but it does give you the option of having separate levels for the LFE vs. the summed bass.

I am a firm believer in EQ for subs, and have taken a lot of time to dial mine in as well as possible give the system I have. I would NOT be keen to do that for a second sub, assuming I can find a decent place to put it.

BGL

 

[Martin Rendall]

I have a couple questions of clarification. I'm sure the info is buried in here, but one pass though it all is enough.
The weak bass issue is that the SACD/DVD-A LFE doesn't have the +10dB boost which the DD/DTS has... right? So what happens is that if you calibrate for DD/DTS on the anolog outputs, you'll see -10dB with SACD/DVD-A. Hopefully that much is accurate. So then, what about the redirected bass from the "small" speakers (where it works, of course). Is that going to lack the +10dB boost as well, or will it get the +10dB boost? For that matter, would such content be boosted with DD/DTS?!?
Second issue: has anybody confirmed a claim made earlier in this thread that if you leave your 45A levels at "fixed", then there's a +10dB boost for SACD/DVD-A? I suppose I could try to test it myself, but I get easily confused when calibrating bass.
Finally, I'm inferring that you absolutely cannot get DD/DTS to have the correct bass on the anolog outputs if you calibrate for SACD/DVD-A... correct? I was kinda hoping to also use this player for concert DVD-V's, given the nice DACs...
Sorry if these issues are old hat by now... :frowning:
Thanks!
Martin.

 

[Brian L]

Martin,

In my case, the low LFE is only apparent if you swap the 45A in place of a previous outboard DD decoder (which I did).

I needed to boost the LFE/Sub channel by some amount (nominally 10dB) to get that channel to balance with the others.

Once you get levels right, the only issue you may have is if the pre/pro or receiver lacks separate adjustments for the 6CH in. You would then have a mis match for sources decoded in the 45A vs. those decoded in your pre/pro.

What I noted recently though, is that the player seems to handle the different media correctly once calibrated. In a previous post, I noted that I calibrated with the Chesky Ultimate DVD using the DVD-A Tones. I balanced for 85dB across ALL channels.

I then ran the DD tones on the same disc, and while the overall levels were down about 3 to 4dB, the channel to channel balance was essentially the same. I was not expecting that, and have no explanation.

I can say this though. I still have my old outboard decoder in my rig (I use a couple of switch boxes to let me run the 45A or the DD decoder through my ICBM).

With system levels on the 6CH input of my receiver calibrated via the 45A/ICBM, the bass, when I switch to the outboard decoder, requires a level reduction of 10dB (accomplished from with in the decoder).

That says to me that at least one big component of the low LFE thing is the lack of +10 for DD sources. But that does not explain why there is no recal required for DVD-A and SACD.

All that said, its a good thing to NOT have to change levels when going from one media to another.

I think I can also confirm that there is no +10 boost when running the 45A at fixed. I have had it this way since day one, and the low LFE was apparent straight away. I also can not comment on level issues with all speakers small/sub on. Since I use an ICBM, I run all large/sub on.

BGL

 

[Patrick Taylor]

I get around not changing the levels for various media on the 45A by using my external decoder on my Yamaha Receiver. I switch over to my Yamaha Bass Management to watch movies with the added LFE impact. I do have my sub hooked up speaker level so I don't know if that makes any difference. I have Def Tech ProMonitor 200's for my fronts with a C2 center and bpx1.2 surrounds. I run them Large with sub ON using the 45A for Bass Management (analog), and Large with sub OFF using my Yamaha with the digital inputs. It sounds good to me but I have yet to properly calibrate my setup.

PAT

 

[Brian L]

and Large with sub OFF using my Yamaha with the digital inputs.

That would be appropriate given that the sub is connected via the speaker outputs, and with a digital connection to the 45A for DD/DTS/PCM material.

BGL

 

[Martin Rendall]

Lots of good info there. But for now, let me just address this point:

I then ran the DD tones on the same disc, and while the overall levels were down about 3 to 4dB, the channel to channel balance was essentially the same. I was not expecting that, and have no explanation.

I just calibrated with DD and the analog outs with Avia. The SWFR is definitely down 10dB from where it should be for DD. I verified against the digital output. So Pioneer may be able to argue that they are following spec for SACD/DVD-A, but their analog outs are definitely NOT in spec for DD. I guess they choose to do that so that one calibration would handle all formats. Probably not the best solution, but perhaps the easiest. Hmmm.

Anyhow, I got calibrated on the analog output with the digital connection about 3dB hot on the SWFR, so not too bad, considering I don't have the ICBM.

Martin.

 

[Patrick Taylor]

Brian,

I am pretty sure I am getting LFE out of my Sub. How can I be 100% Sure? If I turn the Sub OFF in the 45A I get no deep bass, even with speakers set to large. I ran it speaker level because I did not want to change the settings for each media, as I was getting way too much bass with regular CD's. I do not have any Bass Management through my analog inputs on my Yammy. I have more than enough Bass for SACD & DVD-A but not enough for movies, so this is my fix. I had a hell of a time with my crossover on my sub getting it so I could not isolate the LFE. Maybe I have it all wrong and I have no LFE using the analog cables.

PAT

 

[Kevin C Brown]

If you read through Lewis', Brian's, and mine (much later! ) posts, none of us really ended up having DVD-A/SACD that much different than DD/DTS in terms of LFE level. In fact, I recall Brian saying that for him, that the analog sub output was maybe a little louder than the digital one. Just don't rely on using the Pioneer's internal sub test tones. They *are* too low.
Actually, Lewis' posts may have been in a different thread, and maybe even mine too... Shoot might have to look that up...
Found it, in a Denon 2900 thread:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...45#post1601345
You have to read for a little while, and there's stuff before, but what's after is more important.