5.1 Input Bass Managagement in Receivers

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by JohnThompson, Jan 23, 2003.

  1. JohnThompson

    JohnThompson Stunt Coordinator

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    I am in the market for a new receiver. I have the Pioneer DV 45a SACD/DVD-Audio Player, so I need bass management for DVD-Audio (and it wouldn't hurt to be able to have a variable crossover for SACD). I would rather not use the Outlaw ICBM, since I cannot compensate for speaker distances with it.

    Could someone help me out with a list of receivers that perform bass management on it's 5.1 (or 7.1) analog inputs?

    I know the Denon 5803 does, but it is a little out of my price range (I am in the under $1500 market).

    Does one exist?

    Thanks!
    [​IMG]
     
  2. AaronBatiuk

    AaronBatiuk Second Unit

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    You may be disappointed with receivers that do bass management, especially for SACD. They all convert the audio to PCM, usually at 48 or, if you are lucky, 96 kHz sampling rate. The A/D converters in a receiver are not as good as those used in recording studios for several reasons, cost being just one. The extra generation of A/D-D/A conversion adds noise and introduces artifacts in the treble due to the analog anti-aliasing low-pass filters necessary for both converstions.

    Let's not debate whether DSD (SACD) or PCM is better, but by putting your SACD audio through a receiver that converts it to PCM, you will get the worst of both worlds and the best of neither!

    For SACD, you should use either analog bass management, or some form of true DSD DSP to do it digitally without conversion to PCM. Some SACD players have such a DSP system.

    For my SACD listening, I turn off the bass management of my SACD player (A Sony, which uses a "1 bit" DSP to do bass management), and let the full-range signals play through all speakers. To make things difficult, I do not use a subwoofer, but instead have large towers up front, which handle all my bass needs. Luckily, my receiver mixes the sub input of the 5.1 & 7.1 inputs into the front channels (in the analog domain) when the subwoofer is set to off. I am basically counting on most of the bass being in the front and/or sub channels of the discs, since my smaller (but not tiny) center and surrounds can't reproduce really deep bass. So far I don't think that I am missing anything, based my comparisons of the 2-channel tracks to the same 5.1 channel tracks. Levels can be adjusted on the receiver, but time alignment is not available. That isn't an issue for me, as my speakers are all at equal distances from the sweet spot.
     
  3. Ron Newsome

    Ron Newsome Stunt Coordinator

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  4. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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  5. Tyler DJW

    Tyler DJW Stunt Coordinator

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    I know you don't want the ICBM because of the time-alignment feature but, for me the time-alignment doesn't mean all that much. All of my speakers are withing 6 feet (relative) of my sweet spot and I honestly can't tell a difference with compensation on or off. However, the flexiblity of the ICBM is impossible to beat. For me, the tradeoff of losing my time alignment and gaining bass management flexibility was an easy one. It really depends on your room layout, but it's something to consider.
     
  6. Ron Newsome

    Ron Newsome Stunt Coordinator

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    DJ said:
     
  7. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    Wow, Ron, feeling confrontational today, huh?

    I agree that converting DSD from SACD to PCM defeats the purpose of DSD. I also agree that almost nobody's going to hear the difference between converted and non-converted music. But just the possible problem is enough to make people nervous. I certainly wouldn't want to force all that conversion.

    John,

    You do not want to use an ICBM because it won't manage time delay.

    Yet, no receiver or pre/pro that I know of can manage time delay for the 5.1 ins.

    So your aversion to the ICBM doesn't make any sense.

    The ICBM is the solution for you if you keep your receiver. What's your receiver now? Are you in upgrade mode? I think the only receiver that might serve your purpose (I believe you want high quality analog bass management on the 5.1 inputs, correct?) is the Rotel 1066. The Outlaw 950 does a fantastic job as well if you're willing to go the separates route.
     
  8. AaronBatiuk

    AaronBatiuk Second Unit

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    Ron said:
     
  9. Ron Newsome

    Ron Newsome Stunt Coordinator

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    Aaron said:
     
  10. Ron Newsome

    Ron Newsome Stunt Coordinator

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    Mr. Hamm said:
     
  11. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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  12. Juan M

    Juan M Stunt Coordinator

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    The H/K 525 does digital bass management on the multi-channel inputs. It is well in the price range.
     
  13. LanceJ

    LanceJ Producer

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