*** Official "TREASURE PLANET" Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Morgan Jolley]

Lilo and Stitch wasn't exactly a sci-fi movie. The main focus was the relationship between Lilo and Stitch, with a large emphasis on how Stitch was this cute little thing that was totally out of control. The sci-fi stuff was mainly at the beginning and end of the film, with the middle focusing on things with no real sci-fi relation (except the aliens hunting Stitch).

Treasure Planet is 100% sci-fi, from beginning to end. If not because there's always some sort of technology in the scene, then because there's always some sort of reference to it.

I don't think it's the sci-fi, I think its a combination of Disney's history, the marketing of the film, and the writing. Disney is known for making love stories (Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin) or films more about maturing (Mulan, Lion King). Their films that were the least like either were the flops (Atlantis, Treasure Planet).

What Disney needs to do is either stick to the formulaic cliches that made them rich or change everything they do. I'm sorry, but planning an animated series for a movie before it's even out doesn't show much interest in the quality of the film, but rather how much money it makes. Sure, it had a big budget, but that doesn't mean anything if it genuinely sucks.

 

[Edwin-S]

that doesn't mean anything if it genuinely sucks.
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Just out of curousity, have you actually gone to see the film?

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Edwin-

I haven't seen this specific film yet, but I didn't mean to imply that it was bad. I'm sorry if I did.

My point was that if Disney puts out a movie that had a huge budget and its bad, you shouldn't blame it on the genre. They might put out a good movie with a huge budget that ends up not making much money, but that is not what I see happening in this case, based on what people are saying.

Also, sci-fi can work GREAT in animated films. Look at anime. Sure, it's an entirely different style and set of production values, but some mecha-based anime (TV shows or movies) are amazing and wildly successful in Japan.

And wasn't The Iron Giant a sci-fi animated film?

 

[steve jaros]

Jan - i think you hit it on the head. The film was lifeless. It looked beautiful, but had an empty soul, and empty head.

And even it's beauty had a by-the-numbers quality. Perhaps i'm just spoiled by Disney, but the excellence of the animation was merely that - there wasn't anything new or creative about the look of the film (unlike say Lilo and Stitch, which had a wonderful painted/retro look to it).

 

[Edwin Pereyra]

The film was lifeless. It looked beautiful, but had an empty soul, and empty head.

Sorry, but I disagree.

~Edwin

 

[Chuck Mayer]

As do I...it didn't stray very far from formula, but it worked well, and I enjoyed the characters and the visuals. Silver was a treat every which way.

But it clearly is a bomb, my Disney stock is in the toilet, and another good movie gets done in by a self-fulfilling BO prophecy. I'll take a bare-bones DVD, though. And make it quick, Disney.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Jeff Kleist]

The Bobby Driscoll 60s version of TI was done properly

Blasphemy= Unnecessary wholesale alteration, which this film has in spades. It is not a simple transplantation to the future, it's WHOLESALE ALTERATION OF A CLASSIC WORK a Disney trademark.

But analysts say the film was a tough sell. "Science fiction and animation rarely work together," says analyst Brandon Gray, founder of boxofficemojo.com. "Look at Titan A.E. and Final Fantasy."

Foreign markets seem to be able to do it just fine, with multibillion dollar franchises that successfully tell highly dramatic stories.Perhaps they need to explore why those work. Hell, ask Spielburg! Rumor had it he's such a Gundam fan he has a privately fansubbed version of each series on his shelf.

Atlantis, well, perhaps they should have grabbed Nadia before ADV got their hands on it, they would have spent a lot less money and would've had a better movie (and not have to worry about accusations of wholesale design ripoff)

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

And wasn't The Iron Giant a sci-fi animated film?

...that bombed despite very positive reactions from the majority of theatergoers who actually saw it...not unlike "Treasure Planet". I would say that "Iron Giant" was the better of the two, but "Treasure Planet" was by no means a bad film. Amusingly, the "Cinemascore" rankings by females in all age groups were A's and A-'s, and yet I can't recall seeing a single ad that appeared to be targeted to anything but young boys.

Besides improving their marketing strategy, I think what Disney needs to do is to figure out how to make less expensive films that take more chances dramatically rather than technically. If anime films all cost over $100 million, they would be running their industry into the ground, too.

Regards,

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I would say that "Iron Giant" was the better of the two

Actually, Iron Giant did very well in foreign markets, IIRC. The problem with sci-fi animated movies in America is that the people making them KNOW they have to aim at either a family market or a child market in order to succeed because Americans think animation is just for kids. Sure, most of it is, but that doesn't mean they should make a movie, design it to be aimed at the child/family market, and then say it's for the teenager market. I'm sorry, but how many teens are going to say "Yo, wanna go see the new Disney movie this weekend?"

Disney dug their own hole and now they can't get out.

 

[Ray Chuang]

Morgan,

I think what killed The Iron Giant was not because the movie had pretty good storytelling (the movie told it story quite well), but because of the fact that the movie had a fairly strong politically correct feel that turned off many moviegoers. Indeed, many reviewers of The Iron Giant who generally enjoyed the movie have expressed the same sentiments I mentioned.

I think it's time for Disney to take a very close look at what pleases audiences ever since they revived yearly animated feature releases in 1989 starting with The Little Mermaid. Remember all those great songs from The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and The Lion King? Or the generally great storytelling from the Disney features I mentioned? The very effective use of music in Lilo & Stitch was one reason why the movie did so well this last summer.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

If anime films all cost over $100 million, they would be running their industry into the ground, too.

For some recent figures, while Spirited Away cost 35 million, Metropolis cost $18 million to make. If Disney had hired say, Production IG to make Treasure Planet, it'd be in the black now, and probably be a better movie to boot.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

If anime films all cost over $100 million, they would be running their industry into the ground, too

No point in spending $100 million to make a good movie if the script doesn't start out good. Most anime films that end up being considered classics are good on paper BEFORE money is spent. Disney thinks throwing more money at their films makes them better. Sure, it improves the production values, but does Disney really think they can make money SOLELY on pretty pictures without substance? If so, then shame on them.

I suggest they make a spinoff company that makes more adult-oriented animated films.

 

[Edwin-S]

Most anime films that end up being considered classics are good on paper BEFORE money is spent.
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Do you actually believe this? Filmmakers and producers think EVERY story that they spend money on is good on paper; otherwise, they wouldn't spend the money to begin with. The makers of these products have no way of knowing in advance how the product will be received by a wider audience. There are many films that are good stories and still end up flopping at the box office because of prejudice or lack of audience interest.
I have a copy of "AKIRA" and the strength of that film is its visuals and an unusual soundtrack. The story is not one that I would call stellar. The convoluted storyline trys to be literary and just ends up obtuse. Character development is not exactly a strong point in the film, either.
Another series touted by "Anime fans" as a "classic" is Neon Genesis Evangelion. The word "classic" is loosely used with this series, IMO. Once again, there was an attempt by the filmmakers to be "profound". The actual result was a confused mess that went absolutely nowhere. The funny thing is I actually like the series, but I certainly would not call it an example of good storytelling in the "classic" sense.
Jeff Kleist mentioned that Production IG could have been hired and that the result would have been a better film. I highly doubt it. It might have been made cheaper, but I doubt it would have been better. I have watched a few films made by this production house. The films are competently animated, but I have yet to see one film from Production IG that would match a Disney production for fluidity and quality of animation.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

But the fluidity of the animation has nothing to do with the quality of the story being told, which is the entire point. Fluid animation does not make the story

I have a copy of "AKIRA" and the strength of that film is its visuals and an unusual soundtrack. The story is not one that I would call stellar. The convoluted storyline trys to be literary and just ends up obtuse. Character development is not exactly a strong point in the film, either.

Well, also the makers of Akira assumed you'd read the 1200 page manga, of which maybe 3-400 is covered by the actual film. Frankly, it's amazing it flows as well as it does.

 

[Edwin-S]

Well, also the makers of Akira assumed you'd read the 1200 page manga, of which maybe 3-400 is covered by the actual film.
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I appreciate the fact that the filmmakers had a daunting job trying to adapt a 1200 page manga. However, stating that the makers "assumed" a person had read the manga, just reinforces "AKIRA" as an example of poor storytelling. Filmmakers can make one assumption when adapting a book, play, etc. to film. Their one assumption does not include that the majority of the audience has read the book, comic, manga or play. Expecting that the audience can or will fill in the "missing" information is a fatal assumption for a filmmaker to make. The only assumption the filmmakers can make is the assumption that the majority of the audience is ignorant of the source material and then plan their movie around that assumption. The minute filmmakers require an audience to gain understanding from a source outside the framework of their film, is the minute they have failed in their job.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

However, stating that the makers "assumed" a person had read the manga, just reinforces "AKIRA" as an example of poor storytelling

Not if a gigantic percentage of the country your making the film for has read the book. I understood the film (when I got a properly translated fansub) just fine years before I read the manga. Have you seen the Pioneer reissue? Perhaps not watching the mess of the Kondancha dub will greatly increase your understanding of the film, because that horriffic translation really was a total and complete disaster

 

[Ivan Lindenfeld]

I have not seen Treasure Planet. I mostly wanted to post and applaud the ones that came before me in this thread on a respectful and level headed discussion for the most part. It's somewhat of a rarity and refreshing as I just came over from the latest Sopranos thread in the TV show area.
The only other point that I wanted to make starts out as more of a reminiscence. I was 17 when The Little Mermaid came out and I took a date to see it. The theater was full of teenagers like myself. I don't recall many small children in the theater, nor was it a late showing (like that even matters anymore.) Today, I think Disney has programmed the movies so that the only audience, as a generality, that shows up opening weekend is the kiddies and the die-hard Disney animation fans. I think I can draw the end of the wide-appeal era with the departure of Katzenburg of which we are just starting to see projects he had nothing to do with. I am not crediting one man with anything, though. But so far his track record at Dreamworks is good.
If I have to draw a line in the sand I would have to say that Tarzan was the end of the wide-appeal Disney animated films. I admit I have not seen: Atlantis, Lilo and Stich nor TP. Sorry, not much of a moviegoer since the baby came into our lives. But I know what those films are about and the box office they did and the general reaction I have heard. Only friends with kids have seen Atlantis and they did not get begged to go back twice. Lilo and Stich got the repeat kiddie business, but not much more. And now TP.
In a wider (beyond Disney) sense, my wife and I love Titan AE but can see the holes in the story a mile away. But there are enough completely original animation sequences in that film that we don't care. Novel animation can be entertaining unto itself. It was a must buy on DVD and it gets rewatched once a year and not by my daughter. She's still at "The Wiggles" speed. Final Fantasy:TSW has a story that is just not "American" enough for most people and it just becomes nonsense to me after a while because of hamhanded storytelling. (For the record I got the same feeling from the otherwise wonderful Princess Mononoke so I guess I need a familiarity in tone and background for complete immersion as the stories were similar.) The animation is breathtaking in the truest sense of the word however and I look forward to a better TV and DVD player to rewatch it.
The most endearing things in modern Disney animation to me are the great songs. I still am saddened by the loss of Howard Ashman. Some of Mencken's work after his death was good, but together they were awesome. Not many 32 year old men in this world admit to loving Disney music but I always fess up when it comes up. I beleive there is art among all of that commercialism.
If this is the death knell of the modern animation studio era at Disney, you can bet that the animators can expect a pay cut. And more computer work and less hand drawn for cost cutting. So everything will look a lot more like SW:AOTC and a lot less like Lilo and Stich. Hell, Fox's animation studio only lasted one picture.
I'm going to go look for Dreamwork's animation release schedule. I am betting on Katz.
Whew! One point my arse! He's outta control! LOL

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Expecting that the audience can or will fill in the "missing" information is a fatal assumption for a filmmaker to make

I find that filling in the holes in some movies is kinda fun. Also, if you really cared about finding out what happened, you could get the manga or just search the internet.

I suggest we either move the anime/Disney discussion to another thread or just let it go, seeing as how it isn't the main purpose of this thread.