Need some advice: pre amp and amplifier recommendations (1 Viewer)

[cg13]

Few years back I built a little home theater for my main living room. Started looking into the benefit of a power amplifier a few days ago.
Current system.
Denon 3808 ci Receiver
Axiom m80v2 mains. Two up front
Axiom Vp150V2 center channel
Axiom Qs8 v2 surrounds. Two rear.
Axiom Ep350 v3 12" subwoofer
I don't know, but I'm guessing the receiver is maxed out powering or driving all the speakers ATM.
Need help finding a multi channel amp that can power the 5 speakers and take the strain off the receiver.
What are some solid options?
Do I need a pre processor? I don't know what this is, but seen some included in similar systems.
Hoping to spend 500-2000 on a nice amplifier and finish my setup. What are the best amps out there right now?
Is my setup ok? Receiver still "new" enough to power everything?

 

[Mr645]

Am external amp may offer a solid improvement in sound quality, with more power and control. I would look for something from Bryston, B&K, Parasound, Anthem, Rotel. These 4Ω do present a more difficult then most load to any receivers amplification section, your probably moving in the right direction. Since they are also rather efficient speakers, I am sure a 5x125 external amp will do really well. And don;t be afraid of used amps, most are very well made, not very complicated and should last for decades

 

[Robert_J]

I don't know, but I'm guessing the receiver is maxed out powering or driving all the speakers ATM.

What makes you think this? Are you getting audible distortion at your usual listening levels? Is the amp overheating and shutting down?

Do I need a pre processor? I don't know what this is

At least you came here to ask questions. An amp amplifies the signal. A pre-amp is basically your source selector and volume control. Some have audio processing built-in and that's where the pre-processor gets it's name. In your case, the Denon you have already has a set of pre-amp outputs. It can be used as a pre-pro in itself.
Some people in your situation will use an amp for the main channels or front 3 and let the receiver power the surrounds. On the other hand, if you can't answer "Yes" of any of my first three questions then I don't see a need for an external amp.

 

[Gary Seven]

While Robert asks some good questions, those were not applicable to me when I was purchasing an external amp. I have the Denon 4311ci hooked up to 7 speakers. I must first note that sound quality is determined by me using music rather than movies. I found that the amp alone sounded ok for music but lacked a certain punch to the sound.... particularly at lower levels. I still wanted to hear the nuances of the music even at lower levels, and the Denon alone was not cutting it. After some research, I went with this stereo external amp....

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/332077

with upgraded connector and cables. It was a siginificant difference particlularly in the 2 channel listening mode which is what I use for non mulit channel music. I am very happy with my current setup now.

That said, if music is not too important to you and your current setup does not result in speakers clipping, then I would probably leave your current setup as is.

 

[schan1269]

The 3808 is not a slouch.
Like was posed earlier...
If it isn't getting overly hot...and you aren't clipping it(you'd have to darn near drive the speakers on into deafening volume to do that)...
Leave well alone. If anything, all you need is a two channel amp for the fronts...as there is plenty of reserve in the 3808 for everything else.
By the way, that thing chews 864watts off the wall. Even if you take out 100 for video, that is still over 100 each channel. Even if you consider your speakers are efficient enough for "deafening volume" at 105db at 10 watts (using the V3 from Axion, not the version 2...as I assume V2 to V3 isn't that much different in efficiency)...
10 watts leaves you plenty to spare.
Edit:
The Qs8 is even more efficient than the M80.
Even if you need to achieve 110db from all the speakers...
You are doing so on roughly (doing rough math in my head) 120watts. You have roughly 700...

 

[cg13]

What makes you think this? Are you getting audible distortion at your usual listening levels? Is the amp overheating and shutting down?
At least you came here to ask questions. An amp amplifies the signal. A pre-amp is basically your source selector and volume control. Some have audio processing built-in and that's where the pre-processor gets it's name. In your case, the Denon you have already has a set of pre-amp outputs. It can be used as a pre-pro in itself.
Some people in your situation will use an amp for the main channels or front 3 and let the receiver power the surrounds. On the other hand, if you can't answer "Yes" of any of my first three questions then I don't see a need for an external amp.

First part: is it overheating? Well it's never shut down on its own, but it does feel warm after a long listening, movie watching, Sunday afternoon.
I'm no sure there is any audible distortions or not.. To be completely honest I was never fully satisfied when it came to compete surround sound. I always felt it could be cleaner, more pronounced, when it came to seperate channels. I mean during movies for instance, I never felt fully immersed like I did in some of the studios when I was demoing equipment.
I've run the denon speaker setup a few times and am getting good signals all around, so I think everything is hooked up right.
I was thinking the receiver could handle the pre/pro but wanted to be 100%, so thanks for clearing that up. If I did use one, it controls the volume not the receiver? Seems interesting. Doesn't the receiver handle all the processing of signals? What would be the greatest advantage of adding a pre pro? For most of my listening and movie watching the denon should be able to handle most of this right?
Onto the amplifier. I have heard some systems only running an external amplifier for the two big mains and center channel.
If I decided to go this route, should I purchase a 5 channel amplifier? Or just a 2 or 3 channel? The denon sounds like it has enough power to power the two rears, and could power 2 more rears if I ever upgrade to a 7.1 system?
I hadn't thought of just running an external amp for the two mains. Are multi channel amplifiers any better than say, two mono amplifiers. Saw a couple marantz mono amps that looked good, but I have not complied of list of amplifiers to compare yet.
Sme recommended the emotiva XPA5, at 769 it's well within budget and would power all five channels. Is it a decent amp?
Should I aim for a certain watt per channel? Think the speakers can handle 400w, but I doubt I need even half that.
The outlaw 7500 5 channel also looks like it would be a great amp. Robert, you sounded like you were leaning to not upgrading to an external amp, just letting the denon run everything. Would I notice a significant difference?
I alluded earlier I am no trained sound engineer, but I do have an itch, and I love music and movies. I want my systems full potential unlocked- and was worried I may be limited with just a receiver.
Are there any tests that can be run to determine my home theaters performance. I think I have everything setup properly but have been curious in the past if everything Is running properly.
Thanks for all the help everyone, knew I came to the right place!

 

[Robert_J]

How did you run the speaker setup? Did you have the mic positioned at ear level in your favorite spot?
If I were to go with separate amps, Emotiva would probably be my first choice since I can't afford seven Boulder mono amps ($40,000 each). But Outlaw is also good.
Your sound quality is mostly determined by your speakers.
Yes, there are many tests that can be performed. You just need to buy the testing hardware and software. The easiest is Room EQ Wizard. Most people use that for getting good bass response with it does work over the entire frequency range. The software is free. The hardware starts at about $200 or so. Mini-DSP just came out with a USB based mic that people are still testing. Parts Express has a testing system as well and it includes a mic.
I understand your itch. I solved it by building my speakers. They were compared to speakers speakers costing over $1,000 each. I haven't auditioned many speakers like that though. http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/16516/redirect.htm But a few years ago, my wife and I did get an audition at http://egglestonworks.com/ of their Savoy speakers. The MSRP on them is $55,000 a pair. That's where I heard the Boulder amps also. The record player/pre-amp was a mere $20,000 or so. As we were listening, my wife said "Those speakers sound better than yours but not THAT much better". I felt good.
I also built my subs. I can hit reference levels at 17hz with good output down to 12hz. I have never pushed them to their limits because I chicken out. I've knocked my projector out of line before when auditioning the system.

 

[schan1269]

"I was thinking the receiver could handle the pre/pro but wanted to be 100%, so thanks for clearing that up. If I did use one, it controls the volume not the receiver? Seems interesting. Doesn't the receiver handle all the processing of signals? What would be the greatest advantage of adding a pre pro? For most of my listening and movie watching the denon should be able to handle most of this right?"
A receiver is...pre-amp, tuner and amplifier. You can't add a pre-pro to a receiver.
What you can do, since the 3808 has pre-outs, is add amplifiers. So, in essence the 3808 becomes the pre-pro, which was mentioned earlier.
It would help to get a temperature reading of your 3808. I would presume, since there is no fan, the heatsink is capable of wicking up to 140 degrees internal temperature.
If you think about it, even at "full bore" at ear splitting levels, your speakers are achieving 115db on 100 watts. Which the 3808 can get there. That is the equivalent of 7 110 watt lights bulbs. You can imagine how hot that is. Is the AVR that hot?

 

[cg13]

How did you run the speaker setup? Did you have the mic positioned at ear level in your favorite spot?
If I were to go with separate amps, Emotiva would probably be my first choice since I can't afford seven Boulder mono amps ($40,000 each). But Outlaw is also good.
Your sound quality is mostly determined by your speakers.
Yes, there are many tests that can be performed. You just need to buy the testing hardware and software. The easiest is Room EQ Wizard. Most people use that for getting good bass response with it does work over the entire frequency range. The software is free. The hardware starts at about $200 or so. Mini-DSP just came out with a USB based mic that people are still testing. Parts Express has a testing system as well and it includes a mic.
I understand your itch. I solved it by building my speakers. They were compared to speakers speakers costing over $1,000 each. I haven't auditioned many speakers like that though. http://stories.parts-express.com/stories/2444-en_us/category/Speaker/story/16516/redirect.htm But a few years ago, my wife and I did get an audition at http://egglestonworks.com/ of their Savoy speakers. The MSRP on them is $55,000 a pair. That's where I heard the Boulder amps also. The record player/pre-amp was a mere $20,000 or so. As we were listening, my wife said "Those speakers sound better than yours but not THAT much better". I felt good.
I also built my subs. I can hit reference levels at 17hz with good output down to 12hz. I have never pushed them to their limits because I chicken out. I've knocked my projector out of line before when auditioning the system.

Hey Robert thanks for all your help, you've answered some solid questions and I really appreciate it.
I used the denon speaker setup wizard ith it's included mic. Placed mike in 4 spots and ran test. It calibrated and I could see it tuned speakers +- 1 or 2 db on some speakers.
Nice job building your own speakers sounds pretty amazing.
So the emotiva and outlaw are both recommended? Any others I should take a look at?

 

[Robert_J]

There are hundreds of options. Dayton makes some nice 2 channel amps. Parasound will work. Some people even use the 2 channel Behringer A-500.

 

[David Stanley]

...To be completely honest I was never fully satisfied when it came to compete surround sound. I always felt it could be cleaner, more pronounced, when it came to seperate channels. I mean during movies for instance, I never felt fully immersed like I did in some of the studios when I was demoing equipment....

I can definitely relate to this. I spent 12 years with 1 Sony and 3 Yamaha receivers (budget to mid-range models) and never really felt I was getting all I should out of my setup.
A couple of weeks ago I switched to 4 ohm speakers for my 5.1 setup. I knew my budget Yamaha receiver wasn't up to the task, so I upgraded. I got the cheapest decent receiver I could find with pre-outs (Yamaha RX-A800 refurb) and paired it with an Emotiva UPA-500.
The difference was night and day. The surround sound field came alive and I finally had the "movie theater experience". I highly recommend the separate amp route.

 

[cg13]

Saw the emotiva xpr-5; quick question- it says 600 w to all 5 channels driven at 4 ohms.
I have 4 ohm mains x2
' the surrounds are 8 ohms x2
And a center that's is 6 ohms x1
All are axiom speakers rated at a max of 400w.
If I went with the xpr-5, It says 400w at 8 ohms, all channels driven..
How does it differentiate between different ohms I have with my speakers?
Would it be too much for my speakers as it is listed as higher than the max rating on the speakers?
I love the look of the xpr over the xpa and I have to admit, aesthetics does have some part of my decision-- I have read solid reviews on the halo a52. But it being white and my whole setup is black, I just can't look at that disparity everyday. I know sounds really silly but well look at it everyday, I'd like it to look uniform...
So how does that work with an amplifier that has too much power or the rated speakers with different ohms? Do all speakers run at the highest ohms in my setup? Or is power delivered to whatever rating the speakers handle?? I.e.: my mains would pull 4 ohms, rears 8 ohms.. Etc.
If you had to pick 3 amplifiers to use: below $2500... What would you pick?

 

[schan1269]

Speaker wattage ratings are meaningless. Besides, if you were in the room while using even 100 per channel...you'd need industrial strength ear plugs.

 

[schan1269]

Frame of reference...
My "loudest" room is the 15x18 room I use for SACD/DVD-A.
Integra DTR 7.8 pushing on 4 infinity Crescendo 3007 and what was(before I re-boxed it as a center) a 3006. The sub is a 15" mutt.
Without a struggle. The "seating position" SPL can reach 105. 105 is painful. The max(and I was using ear plugs and a digital SPL meter) seated SPL in the room is 111.
You have more power, and more efficiency than I do.

 

[David Stanley]

I love the look of the xpr over the xpa and I have to admit, aesthetics does have some part of my decision-- I have read solid reviews on the halo a52. But it being white and my whole setup is black, I just can't look at that disparity everyday

Emotiva does sell trim plates in their accessories section that can change the silver endcaps on the XPA to black.

 

[David Stanley]

I agree with the others. The XPR is a bit of overkill. I'm using the UPA in an 18x25 room with 10 foot ceilings and even it will go as loud as you can stand.

 

[David Stanley]

If you had to pick 3 amplifiers to use: below $2500... What would you pick?

Personally I would get one of the following:
1) XPA-5 + XPA-200 + another pair of surround speakers
2) Outlaw 7125 + another pair of surround speakers
Either option leaves a lot of change from $2500

 

[schan1269]

Or, option not listed.
Find a couple used 150/ channel NAD, Nikko or SAE amps(should be able to find a pair of matching amps for under $600) and have one hell of a party using $1900...

 

[schan1269]

By the way, there are two of these on Fleabay....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIKKO-ALPHA-220-STEREO-POWER-AMPLIFIER-/200866266833?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2ec48ffed1

 

[cg13]

Frame of reference...
My "loudest" room is the 15x18 room I use for SACD/DVD-A.
Integra DTR 7.8 pushing on 4 infinity Crescendo 3007 and what was(before I re-boxed it as a center) a 3006. The sub is a 15" mutt.
Without a struggle. The "seating position" SPL can reach 105. 105 is painful. The max(and I was using ear plugs and a digital SPL meter) seated SPL in the room is 111.
You have more power, and more efficiency than I do.

Wow thank you for that reference, puts things in a different light.