Looks like the Donner cut of Superman II may have jumped through its legal hurdles!!! (1 Viewer)

[James Phillips]

That's from the June 1979 issue of Fantastic Films.

The one about Donner saying he's willing to re-cut the film, but he wants Warner Bros. to make the first move. That's not a direct quote from Donner as such, but was mentioned on the Superman CINEMA news page sometime last year. It was (I think) what Donner told James Christie, who's writing a book about Donner's films. I can't find a link to it on the site, but the February 2004 news page is showing a dead link, so perhaps it was on there.

Hopefully Dharmesh can provide some clarification on that one.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Nobody knows yet, but Ottman gave the indication that he doesn't want to overuse the score. Emphasis on *he*, as Ottman kept reiterating how he has no real idea what's going on.

 

[Drew Reiber]

That interview was nonsense. He kept contradicting himself, making comments like, "Well, we could use the theme a lot... or a little... or an entirely new one... well, it could all change once I talk to Bryan in a few months... or maybe songs... or maybe not, Bryan hates songs.. well, I haven't talked to Bryan yet... I haven't seen the screenplay yet... no, this isn't a prequel or a sequel... well, I don't know what's going on..."

That's the entire interview.

 

[Drew Reiber]

I highly doubt Donner will sacrifice a signifigant and large scale action sequence because they were unable to shoot it. I could be wrong, but I can see them biting the bullet on this one.

 

[Drew Reiber]

UPDATE: I pulled out a 1979 copy of Cinemafantastique that I found last year (woo!), and Donner says this about Superman II. Now remember, THIS is the original version of the New Movie's cliffhanger leading into the second film:

HOW WERE YOU GOING TO LEAD INTO THE SECOND FILM?

"Superman was going to leave Hackman and Beatty in the prison, fly up past the camera as he does, and then I was going to pan up into the sky and pick up the rocket that he had left tumbling. You see it shut off, and you see the Zone of Silence with the three villains in it; then, all of a sudden, the rocket goes past them and there's an atomic explosion, and it blows up the Zone of Silence, freeing Terence Stamp, Jack O'Halloran and Sarah Douglas. Then you see them going to the moon where they destroy a moon mission - which we've already shot, and it's fantastic. Then they go to Earth and start breaking up the White House and such. But then I figured it was just too much like television - tune in next week you know - so we chopped it.

*snipping*

HOW DOES HE DESTROY HIS FATHER?

"By using all the energy from the crystals for another purpose - the crystals in the Fortress of Solitude. Superman II's going to be a helluva film. There's not a whole lot left to do on it, but what's left could take months - like a major aerial battle between Superman and the three villains, and the destruction of Metropolis/ And there there are two or three pivotal scenes with Superman and Lois that are written and ready to go. Not too much, but enough."

IS IT YOUR BEST GUESS THAT YOU'LL BE FINISHING IT UP?

"I'd like to think I'm going to be. I'd be very disappointed if I weren't."

*SNIPPING*

there is an epilogue to the interview from sometime later about Guy Hamilton replacing Donner as director and Lester replacing Pierre Spengler, and we all know what happened there... so here's the important part:

DONNER INDICATED HIS SURPRISE AT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT, AND SAID, "The Salkinds and Spengler have now seen fit to replace me with the original director, whose material I had to radically change to make the picture you have seen - or Dick Lester, who, as he explained to me, is still trying to get his money from them. Since I completed at least 80% of the second film, I only hope they cannot hurt it that much."

oooooooh

 

[James Phillips]

At least 80%!

 

[Drew Reiber]

I think it's pretty clear at this point that the quotes Lester gave about Donner's footage being about 12% of the total film and comprised mostly of second unit is much more descriptive of his own.

 

[James Phillips]

Donner's version was supposed to have a scene where the newly-arrived villains encounter two Texas Rangers on a highway. The villains force them to tell them who their superiors are, which eventually leads up to the President of the United States in Washington. Ursa snaps one man's arm, and then kills him, and Non crushes the other in his car. Then they rampage around the world, before heading to the White House. It's similar to the Sheriff scene in Lester's version, but the tone is much more serious.

The original scene was used for the Ursa screen tests, which can be seen on the Superman The Movie DVD.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Do we know if this was shot? There seems to be some alternate footage of the Kryptonians from both sides, including Lester's unbelievably stupid footage from the end that included the villains being carted away by the police.

 

[Dharmesh C]

Yes, WB have to approach Donner if they want his assistance. Let's remember, Dick has been inconsistent with his Superman 2 quotes; one minute he's up for it and other times he wants nothing to do with it.

I doubt 80% of Superman 2 was in the can; it's more like 70%
Very little of the Metropolis battle was shot, I believe some model work was initiated on this.

Most of the original Superman 2 ending was shot sans turning back time. Check out my Donner Superman 2 section.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Dharmesh, with all due respect to the wonderful work you've done, I'm going to take Donner's word over your calculations. I'm sure you've got a great handle on all the Superman II insight available to us, but it's far more than likely that additional information exists that we fans have yet to be exposed to.

True, not all the Metropolis stuff was shot... but we're still weighing our concept of the total footage from the perspective of a version that is not the one he envisioned. Who knows how much is still sitting in a vault somewhere that Lester or the Salkinds decided could not be salvaged for the TV or theatrical versions that just comes down to improvisation, pacing or other material not related to the shooting script?

Also, I might add that Donner's concept of the footage percentage that he's claimed to have shot has remained fairly consistent over the past 25 years.

 

[Dharmesh C]

Drew, you are probably more passionate about all this then me

and being the humble person that I am...I hope you're right that Donner shot 80%, but according to someone who would know more about this then us, 80% of the picture was not cut by the editors.
I think it was something like 65% of Superman 2 was ready.

The Metropolis Battle takes a huge chuck out of that 30%.

Someone timed the Donner and Lester scenes from the most complete Superman 2 expanded TV screening and Donner just came out in front. I can't remember the numbers but I was surprised that Donner didn't have a clear lead.

 

[Drew Reiber]

But aren't we still only counting the footage that was deemed usable by the Salkinds for their purposes?

 

[Dharmesh C]

Yes, I bet Baird himself edited the footage in 1977 and the Salkind company simply dropped it into the TV edition; so I think it's a fair representation of how the footage would play in Donner's version since the footage (timing and editing) sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

[Sean Richardson]

But Donner's word is inconsistent. He has said repeatedly that they finished with Hackman, yet you agree that there were further shots to do. [Yes, they were second unit and pick-ups, but those are important shots if they feature special effects involving major characters, so you'd think they'd be something Donner was aware of needing.]

I think that Donner himself is as self-serving as anybody else involved in this story, so it seems reasonable to assume that the higher end estimates he says will be slightly exaggerated.

Also, it seems to me like a 'Lord of the Rings' situation ... Peter Jackson could've edited together all three films based on the footage he shot over 18 months, but, instead, he kept calling the actors back to improve stuff. It seems, from all the quotes and whatnot listed down below, like Richard Donner would've done the same with 'Superman II' if given the chance, and the fact that he didn't have that chance seems to stick in his craw. I'm not surprised he doesn't want to go back, because it seems (to me) like he'd have to compromise too much, and he'd have little to gain by doing it (unless he cares a lot more about 'Superman II' now than he seems to).

 

[AlexCosmo]

Speaking of Stuart Baird, it seems that any new version would be a test of editing skill more than anything else. His involvement seems more important than Donner's. He could probably re-shape the necessary Lester footage and make it a lot snappier than it was.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Agreed. So they held up the Warner chat... great. Now it's going to be forever before we get an update on the situation.

 

[Dharmesh C]

By the time Superman 2 was halted in late 77, Baird had edited 65% of Superman 2, he's fairly adamant about that, and I believe him, because he was physically handling this stuff. I'm including the two sequences you mention.
I'm not going to mention sources because I'm not allowed to.

I don't know about the f/x material, which may add to the percentage total.

Lester counted 12% of Donner material in the final cut of Superman 2; he cited only the main unit work though. He/they did not count the other unit work as Donner material.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Oh my mistake, I thought I remembered him saying that out of the 12%, some of it wasn't even Donner. Still, he claims he counted Donner's footage at 12% and gave the rest of the existing footage credit to the uncounted other units. That's pretty disgusting.

 

[Drew Reiber]

Oh hey, interesting link I found sometime ago... just found it again. Has some great info on all of this, but forgive me if someone else (or another site) has provided it already.

Superman II: Making the Sequel

From Tom Mankiewicz in this article:
Also, I can't tell exactly how much, but most of what Lester is saying is a lie. The Salkinds definitely did not seek out Lester as the replacement for Donner, they went to Guy Hamilton first who then left after a short bit of communication with the producers. Lester was promoted to producer, replacing Spengler, but he did not get the job until well after Donner was fired. It's very disturbing to me how Lester continues to spin this in order to maintain that Superman II was his. I've heard he likes to brag about how Superman II was the favorite of the series by critics, which is very sad.