I want a middleman local Retailer! They are definately worth ...% ? (1 Viewer)

[John Morris]

With the onset of some direct to the consumer retailers like SVS, Adire, and Outlaw, how much do you think having that local retailer is worth to YOU versus manufacturer/distributor prices?

How much more are you willing to pay on a specific item if it is available locally versus via online and overnight mail?

 

[rodneyH]

I most admit that visiting my favorite audio stores is a favorite past time of mine, and I would hate if they were gone, that being said, I do own an SVS. I think we should support both (for the obvious reasons). I would never buy speakers (EXCEPT A SUB, and only a sub, if it had a return policy-ie. SVS), I really think that you can get some pretty mediocure speakers in your home and convince yourself that they sound pretty good. An A/B test is a necessity in my book. I have similar feelings towards other components, but feel most strongly about the local dealer when it comes to speaker purchases.

I would be willing to pay 10% (maybe 20% on a good day) more at a local dealer, to have the experience of walking in, comparing, talking with a knowledgable salesman, and actually walking out with the product, it is very satifying.

 

[Ned]

Too bad a dealer needs 100-200% to stay in business. I'll stick with the 30-45 day return policies from SVS/Outlaw.

 

[Wayne Ernst]

Too bad a dealer needs 100-200% to stay in business. I'll stick with the 30-45 day return policies from SVS/Outlaw.

I find most retailers to be quite irritating. Memories of my previous visits make me not want to go back into the stores. It seems like not so many salespeople are keen on just letting people look at and touch the equipment - which is what I want to do just to see what I could be buying. Instead, the salespeople try to go through a whole psychological profile on you trying to find what they believe is the right equipment for you even before you've gone back to the sound rooms.

To get around these issues, I'll look for on-line retailers who sell gear with "not too harsh" return policies - in the event something doesn't work out.

 

[Ken Stokes]

Depends on the dealer. I have one that I am willing to pay an additional 30 or 40% just to have him available. I can drop in any time I want, discuss equipment, music, or even my business. His first love is music and he will close the store, open a bottle of wine, and put my new CD or LP on his 200k system and listen. His knowledge runs very deep and he is more than willing to share it. I have and will pay a premium for this. How many items are you willing to buy and return so that you can audition them? How will you ever know what a no $$ limit system can sound like? If you have a real problem who will come out with their test equipment to help you out with it? SVS, Diva, and Outlaw are great values for their price but there is more to this hobby then these. There is a reason that retail distribution exists in all areas of merchandising. Some people purchase clothes through catalogs but I'll take a tailor any day.

Ken

 

[Doug_B]

Thus far, most of my components are products offered only direct from the manufacturer. Since I had no pre-purchase experience with any of these, I was placing a value-added on each item (based primarily on Internet reviews, on-line feedback, etc) that could be translated into many hundreds of dollars (per item) if not 4 figures. Obviously, if the dealer products I did not choose were priced as if the dealer did not exist, then the value of such products would be closer to the dealer direct products. As a result, I would estimate that a dealer would provide me with a 10%-30% value, depending on the item.
I have yet to purchase a major component on-line / direct that was offered by B&M dealers. My threshold is probably higher (can't say it will never happen). In such cases, the B&M dealer value is greater to me, esp for those dealers who provide proper customer service. The right answer for this case is to find/cultivate a dealer who provides good service and with whom you can negotiate .
Doug

 

[John E F]

I would definately buy from SVS, Outlaw, and other internet only manufacturers based on there reputation here. At the same time, I would pay 10% to 20% more from a local dealer on the other major brands based on their service and return policy. There is a lot to be said about being able to return a $800 receiver that you just don't like or is defective and being able to get a new or different one the same day. A good local retailer should have a 30 day no questions asked return policy or allow you an in home demo on higher priced items, say over $600.

 

[Tim_S]

Personally I would be overjoyed if I had a decent local dealer and be willing to pay all sorts of cash. Living where I do, there is virtually nothing around which forces me to buy elsewhere. For some things, like my CS-Ultra, that is fine. I just bought some VMPS speakers since nothing decent was available locally, but I would have very much liked to have been able to do some legitimate comparisons between different speakers before I purchased. For what I did, I had to drive 150 miles to Jacksonville. I will soon be buying a new processor and I loathe the thought of doing that without seeing one in person or having a local dealer I can take it back to if it doesn't work. My guess is that I would pay at least 20-40% for a legitimate local dealer. I wouldn't do this for mass market stuff like Sony and Denon, but for good quality stuff, yes.
One overlooked point about the value of local dealers (very clear to me at the moment as I watch for a UPS truck everyday) is the ability to walk in a shop and walk out with your toys right then, instead of waiting. Very frustrating.
Tim

 

[MarkR]

Based on my past experiences, not much.

From my personal experience here are B&M's negatives:

1) price - full retail (usually) + tax (I hate paying sales tax)

2) Salespersons (remember, MY experiences)

I love the IDEA of going into a B&M, talking audio/home theater/music with a knowledgeable person, listening to different equipment, combinations of equipment. However, usually the reality of any attempts to try this have been far from ideal.

Unfortunately, as consumers, we're handcuffed by policies of manufacturers. Their rigid "authorized dealer" policies makes it difficult to audition and compare products. If we find a component that we love, we have no choice but to buy from a B&M - even if we despise the authorized retailer in our area.

Living in NY, I have been to all the high-end retailers in Manhatten, and only had one experience that I was really happy with (Lyric). At one place (Cosmo) my listening session was limited to speakers that were not broken in, and my buddy and I were rushed out because "other people were waiting." I'm sorry, but this type of treatment will not earn my business - ever.

Most of time, I get the feeling that the salesman believes he's doing me a favor, and that his time is better spent doing something else/being somewhere else. Or that my opinion about a pair of speaker or component is absurd/irrelevant because it may differ from that of the salesperson.

My most positive experience was not even in the City, but when I was visiting a friend in DC. Too bad I don't live down there, otherwise they'd probably be getting my business.

If I had the type of positive experience others have described on this forum, I would have no problem buying from a B&M.

BTW, if anyone has anyone (store and/or salesperson) they would recommend in NYC, let me know.

Mark

 

[Bill Lucas]

"Unfortunately, as consumers, we're handcuffed by policies of manufacturers. Their rigid "authorized dealer" policies makes it difficult to audition and compare products."

I keep seeing posts that question "authorized dealers". These are dealers that have taken the time to sign up with a manufacturer to represent, display, sell and support the manufacturers product line. In many cases it means a large initial purchase and a commitment to display a broad range of the product line so that a consumer can see the range of product offered by the manufacturer as well as a commitment to sell a certain amount of product. What the hell is wrong with that?

An "unauthorized dealer" hasn't signed up to represent the manufacturers product and everything they sell in the product line has been purchased by questionable means (i.e. through disreputable dealers or distributers or worse). Many times the consumer is stuck with non-warrantable merchandise and may receive goods that have had serial numbers filed off.

I can understand the want to get a good deal but this "authorized dealer" nonsense that is prevalent on this forum is completely misguided IMHO. A network of dealers makes sense for any manufacturer. To think otherwise makes no sense. Regards.

 

[Shane Martin]

Bill,

So you are saying that Outlaw and Svs make no sense since they don't have a dealer network?

 

[John Morris]

I keep seeing posts that question "authorized dealers". These are dealers that have taken the time to sign up with a manufacturer to represent, display, sell and support the manufacturers product line. In many cases it means a large initial purchase and a commitment to display a broad range of the product line so that a consumer can see the range of product offered by the manufacturer as well as a commitment to sell a certain amount of product. What the hell is wrong with that?

Bill: I don't think anything at all is wrong with that. What's wrong is when those same dealers turn around and take that "large initial purchase" and sell it to these unauthorized dealers who then go about selling this product to us online. A manufacturer and retailer can't have it both ways. As far as I'm concerned, if the product comes from the manufacturer and passes through the hands of an authorized dealer, then the product if fully warranted. In this situation, the unauthorized dealer is merely acting as a purchasing agent for us when we buy this product from the authorized dealer.

What's wrong with this is also when our local authorized dealer refuses to bring in a product unless we pre-pay for it. In that situation we get no demo, no price discount off of MSRP and no return policy(special order product). Yet, for some manufacturer's we have no other place where we are allowed to purchase and have a warranty.

There is definately a place for the authorized local B&Ms but not any moreso than there is a place for the authorized online discounted sellers. Both of those businesses each have their clientele and both provide benefits to the consumer.

 

[Larry B]

MarkR:

I am a loyal and committed client of Innovative Audio (E. 58th Street).

Larry

 

[MarkR]

Bill: Perhaps I need to clarify my statement. My problem with "authorized retailer" programs is two-fold. First, it creates a local monopoly for the retailer, limiting accessability to a manufacturer's product. This creates a problem for the consumer - for example if you are looking for a pair of speakers that are only sold by Retailer A, but the amp and preamp you own are only sold by Retailer B, you can't demo the speakers using gear that you own, unless you buy the speakers and test them at home.
The local monopoly also prevents any price competition for a product. I believe that such price constraints are immoral and unethical (although not illegal under curent antitrust law).
Second, if the consumer does not like the authorized retailer for a particular manufacturer in his area, em has no choice but to buy from that retailer if the consumer is set on buying that product locally.
I would just like to see multiple local retailers instead of the more common "authorized retailer for your area" policies. I understand this is to protect the retailer, who has to make a significant purchase/commitment, but in the end it is the customer that suffers, and probably the manufacturers as well.
Does this clarify?
Larry B: Is there anyone in particular that at Innovative that you recommend? E-mail me at [email protected]

 

[Dan Hitchman]

I guess this is simplistic, but...

Authorized Dealer Network = OK'd Price Fixing

Look at Denon, Monster Cable, Polk Audio, and H.P. as big examples.

Unless the dealer or company headquarters (like with an Ultimate Electronics chain) makes a bulk purchase with a manufacturer's quantity discount and/or has been authorized to do so, you almost always see the exact same price for the items no matter where you look. Doubly so for the likes of Monster Cable and Polk Audio.

That may not be illegal per se, but it is highly unethical, and I don't think consumers should stand for it.

If the dealer (B&M or otherwise) wishes to discount an item in order to stay competitive in the area or on the internet, they should be able to do so.

The manufacturer should have nothing negative to say and must accept the warranty if they have already received payment for said item. The way things work now the manufacturer has their cake and gets to eat it too, by getting payment and then denying service on their whim.

Dan

 

[Doug_B]

Second, if the consumer does not like the authorized retailer for a particular manufacturer in his area, em has no choice but to buy from that retailer if the consumer is set on buying that product locally.

I can list many more retailers from whom I wouldn't buy any products than ones from whom I would. Of course, this leads to a problem for many vendor products and would result in me having to travel "non-locally" to hopefully find a dealer that I will like. Case in point with my purchase of an AVM-20. I purchased from a dealer about 25 miles farther away than a closer one (who is 30 miles away) due to better service and better price.

Doug

 

[Bill Lucas]

Shane,

Companies like SVS and Outlaw sell direct to consumers and not through a dealer network. Therefore, they don't fall into the category I described.

Merc,

We have the same problem with shady authorized dealers as far as I can tell. If they are dealing products under the table then they are the immoral and unethical ones, not those that honor their commitments.

Mark and Dan,

What is immoral or unethical about selling a product for the price that the manufacturer has deemed to be the fair (list) price for a product? Whether you like it or not, business is about making a profit. If the product is priced higher than a consumer would like to spend the consumer has no obligation to buy. There are usually lower priced products that fall into the consumers budget. Wanting to get more than one can afford (or simply more than one wants to spend) is not a God given right. The dealer has a right to make a profit and the consumer does not get to determine what the profit margin will be. Regards.

 

[Larry B]

Bill:

I can understand the want to get a good deal but this "authorized dealer" nonsense that is prevalent on this forum is completely misguided IMHO. A network of dealers makes sense for any manufacturer. To think otherwise makes no sense.

I agree. 'nuff said.

Larry

 

[Larry B]

MarkR:

I sent you an E-mail.

Larry

 

[John Morris]

What is immoral or unethical about selling a product for the price that the manufacturer has deemed to be the fair (list) price for a product? Whether you like it or not, business is about making a profit. If the product is priced higher than a consumer would like to spend the consumer has no obligation to buy. There are usually lower priced products that fall into the consumers budget. Wanting to get more than one can afford (or simply more than one wants to spend) is not a God given right. The dealer has a right to make a profit and the consumer does not get to determine what the profit margin will be.

So true, so true.

Unfortunately the only way that we can influence pricing is by our dollars. Therefore, anyone that buys a product from a MSRP retailer has no room to bitch about any of their policies. You have already voiced your satisfaction by giving them your money.

If you are unhappy about manufacturer/retailer policies, then vote by not buying anything from them. Limit your purchases from direct to consumer companies like SVS and Outlaw and Adire, and your dealer sold goods to companies with free enterprise and consumer choice in mind.

Eventually, if we all did this, manufacturers would either change their policies or go belly up. B&Ms would soon become the place where only very wealthy folks shopped without regard to price, or the B&Ms would just disappear. At that point, you'd see the Denon and Yamaha gear start to sell in BBs and Walmarts, and online retailers could carry and buy anything that most of us would want, and could afford, to buy.

IMO, the ideal situation is what OneCall does. They have an online store which discounts their products and a retail store(s) which fills the needs of those who need what a retail store offers.