Apple TV+ For All Mankind (2019) - Season 4 (2 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

I am very happy that Margo got some justice in this episode. She has always been a very likable character

Man that’s so funny how the same character and actions can be seen so differently by different folks. I never found her to be particularly likable but her treasonous actions made me actively dislike her.

I am hoping she can defect back to the U.S. (not certain how those things work).

It looks like she was investigating defecting to Brazil next if I understood what was happening. I think if she re-entered the States without the diplomatic cover the Russians provided, she could very well be executed.

 

[DaveF]

This hasn't been the best season.

I am very happy that Margo got some justice in this episode. She has always been a very likable character but was put in a very difficult position by the Russians and made equally difficult decisions. I don't think she can ever be forgiven but I am happy that Sergei confronted Aleida and gave her the truth. I am hoping she can defect back to the U.S. (not certain how those things work).

I don’t know what justice Margo got in this episode. It seems her pain has only increased with the presumably Russian murder of Sergei.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I don’t know what justice Margo got in this episode. It seems her pain has only increased with the presumably Russian murder of Sergei.

The justice is explaining the truth of what she did and why she did it as was told to Aleida from Sergei, the person mostly responsible for this mess.

 

[jayembee]

It looks like she was investigating defecting to Brazil next if I understood what was happening. I think if she re-entered the States without the diplomatic cover the Russians provided, she could very well be executed.

Well, actually, it was Sergei who came up with the plan to defect to Brazil. Margo just said she'd think about it.

I have to say that Margo's thing with the hamburgers reminds me of when I first went to Europe back in 1969, at the age of 15. There were no hamburgers to be had anywhere, and even worse, the last week we spent was in London, where one could only get Wimpys, which are Satan's idea of a hamburger. When my parents picked me up at LaGuardia upon my return, we stopped somewhere-I-don't-remember to have dinner, and I insisted on a nice, juicy hamburger.

But I'm curious now...as of 2003 in this timeline, there have only been three Star Trek shows? Depending on whether Dani was counting the Animated Series, does that mean there was only TNG (and maybe DS9) after that?

 

[Josh Dial]

But I'm curious now...as of 2003 in this timeline, there have only been three Star Trek shows? Depending on whether Dani was counting the Animated Series, does that mean there was only TNG (and maybe DS9) after that?

I took it as a subtle dig at Ron Moore's issues with Voyager. In Ron Moore's reality (the For All Mankind reality), the show simply doesn't exist

 

[Josh Steinberg]

But I'm curious now...as of 2003 in this timeline, there have only been three Star Trek shows? Depending on whether Dani was counting the Animated Series, does that mean there was only TNG (and maybe DS9) after that?

I took it as a subtle dig at Ron Moore's issues with Voyager. In Ron Moore's reality (the For All Mankind reality), the show simply doesn't exist

What if in this reality it’s the original series, the animated series, and then Phase II became a series instead of The Motion Picture?

 

[DaveF]

The justice is explaining the truth of what she did and why she did it as was told to Aleida from Sergei, the person mostly responsible for this mess.

I thought that was two episodes ago, but your point is taken regardless of my memory

Man that’s so funny how the same character and actions can be seen so differently by different folks. I never found her to be particularly likable but her treasonous actions made me actively dislike her.



It looks like she was investigating defecting to Brazil next if I understood what was happening. I think if she re-entered the States without the diplomatic cover the Russians provided, she could very well be executed.

I always took Margo as a sympathetic but misguided character, and not someone to hate. (Within the domain that she was a brusque, driven, low emotional IQ scientist.) She was pursuing a greater global, humanitarian good. She was never trying to benefit herself or harm her friends or her country. But she made poor choices, but understandable ones given her goals, her knowledge, and the realities of her 1980s political climate.

I thought she was a good character. Like or dislike her, she was interesting and compelling and made sense in the show.

 

[DaveF]

In this season, I don’t really understand Ed’s or Dani’s or Sam’s motivations. Or why the show keeps veering away from the great character drama it setup for itself.

There is great tension between Ed and Dani, and everytime I think the show is going to dig into that, and have some real conflict between then, it veers away into another plot twist with Goldilocks.

I thought there was going to be some great character drama and social commentary on the conflict of labor and capital, a retro-future “company town” when you’re paid in scrip but you‘re literally on another planet and so literally can’t walk away. And just as that’s getting good, the show veers away resolving it all in handwaving to be distracted by a Dev subplot that’s not been adequately established.

I’m looking for “Hello, Bob” emotional experience. And S4 walks up to that, points and says here it is, I could totally do something awesome, and then turns away from it. Everytime.

That’s what’s killing me this season. I just don’t know what’s happening with the character and emotional and social-commentary arcs.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

At its best, this show transcends the limits and conventions of television and presents a compelling look at the way things could have been - it makes things feel real.

But it’s always, in my view, been a little too stuck in the television realm and walks itself back from those moments of transcendence and seems almost unwilling to spread its wings and truly fly. I feel like we’re getting a lot of that this season.

And I think a big part of that is that they’re writing to characters they already have, to actors that are already under contract, rather than moving beyond them.

So the show winds up with Ed being the main character for four seasons, when he should have been sunsetted after the first, maybe the second. The show winds up recasting Margo as a traitor and then bending over backwards to invent reasons why such a person would still serve in essentially the same role. Dani gets repurposed as a base commander rather than retiring somewhere offscreen. Ellen becomes President (and the way this show works, it’s almost miraculous that they didn’t change the constitution to allow her to stick around and serve more terms). And I think these decisions handcuff the narrative by forcing it to continue to come back to these characters rather than moving past them.

This show excels when it tells stories that can only be told in the context of space exploration. I find it much less interesting when it tells stories that any other show could tell in any other context. It’s not good at manufactured conflict. Here’s a show that creates a credible, plausible, realistic depiction of what colonizing Mars could look like, and the best thing it can think to do with that is to have a geriatric disgruntled base commander endanger a child, his own grandchild no less, to do an Ocean’s 11-esque caper. It travels to the highest highs and then aims low.

Now within the context of the choices it does make, the show does execute those things with top notch production values supporting a capable cast. Look, maybe the problem is me. I want to believe that space exploration will unite us as a species and change the trajectory of our existence. And right now this show seems to be building more towards a scenario where people on Mars steal stuff, and you get a war between people on Earth who wanted that stuff and people on Mars who have it, and I’m just so tired of everything being about dividing us and fighting and violence and conflict. And I’m also kinda over this concept of “the one,” that only one person is able to do any particular job. Only Ed. Only Dani. Only Margo. Only Dev. It’s a very limiting message and I think one that goes against what this show is trying to be.

 

[jayembee]

Man that’s so funny how the same character and actions can be seen so differently by different folks. I never found her to be particularly likable but her treasonous actions made me actively dislike her.

For me, I've always been able to differentiate "liking" a character and "liking" a character. I had this epiphany back when I got into L.A. Law, and I realized that I would never ever want to hang around with these people, but they were great characters. It's similar to "liking" characters who do ill, like Tony Soprano or most of the characters in The Wire.

To me, Margo is, in some ways, an admirable character with respect to her characteristics that Dave describes above. She doesn't do what she does for personal gain, and while she might make questionable choices, she does so for what she is convinced are the right reasons. And she has certainly accepted the consequences of her decisions.

What if in this reality it’s the original series, the animated series, and then Phase II became a series instead of The Motion Picture?

Bingo! I came across this:

Apple's Best Sci-Fi Show Just Dropped a Star Trek Twist With Wild Implications

In 'For All Mankind' Season 4, Episode 9, Danielle reveals that there are only three Star Trek shows in 2003. How can this be?

www.inverse.com

 

[Josh Steinberg]

For me, I've always been able to differentiate "liking" a character and "liking" a character. I had this epiphany back when I got into L.A. Law, and I realized that I would never ever want to hang around with these people, but they were great characters. It's similar to "liking" characters who do ill, like Tony Soprano or most of the characters in The Wire.

I completely agree!

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Just caught up with the most recent two episodes. There were a number of creative choices that were smarter than I was expecting.

I thought for certain that Alex (Kelly's son) would be injured during his participation in Ed's misadventure. Nice to see gramps and his grandson bonding over an illicit activity.

That scene was the only time I've seen Ed express any hesitation or second thoughts about the course he's been on. It's pretty clear that he's willing to face whatever consequences come his way in order to secure his legacy of permanent human habitation on Mars. But I don't know that he's willing to let Kelly and his grandson face consequences for his choices, when he's actively confronted with that as a possibility.

I didn't understand the significance of Ed reading The Sand Pebbles to Alex. Perhaps he read this to Shane when he was a boy? (We do see Ed looking at a picture from his past.)

The parallel was to what Ed did with Kelly when she was young and couldn't sleep. As for the choice of reading material: I would bet that Ed relates a lot to Jake Holman, and would love to go out the way Holman does.

Watching and enjoying. But not as much as prior seasons. Especially in the first season, the character emotional arcs were clear and resonant. This season, I don’t really understand the motivations of key characters.

There are few clear-cut good guys this season. Even our heroes from prior seasons are operating heavily in the grey this time around. If there's something to root for this season, it the continuing advancement of humanity into the cosmos.

I am very happy that Margo got some justice in this episode. She has always been a very likable character but was put in a very difficult position by the Russians and made equally difficult decisions. I don't think she can ever be forgiven but I am happy that Sergei confronted Aleida and gave her the truth. I am hoping she can defect back to the U.S. (not certain how those things work).

I don't think the United States would ever trust her again. Politically, it would be a non-starter for any American president to give her a pardon for her treason. I do agree that it was nice that Sergei told Aleida why Margo did what she did.

Perhaps Margo will end up on a Helios ship to Mars.

Poor Sergei.

My working assumption at this point is that Irina Morozova had him killed to keep Margo from having divided loyalties. But if so, it's certain to backfire, as it will only validate Sergei's warning to Margo about the threat posed by Irina.

Well, actually, it was Sergei who came up with the plan to defect to Brazil. Margo just said she'd think about it.

Yes. She might give up on the idea without Sergei to accompany her. But she might also commit to it to avoid going back to the USSR.

But I'm curious now...as of 2003 in this timeline, there have only been three Star Trek shows? Depending on whether Dani was counting the Animated Series, does that mean there was only TNG (and maybe DS9) after that?

When they had the clip of David Spade, I remember thinking how bizarre it was that "Just Shoot Me" of all shows managed to exist despite the drastically different timeline.

The original "Star Trek" would have recently finished airing its final episode when the Soviets landed on the moon, so the original series should be the same in both timelines. But if Star Trek: The Motion Picture never got made, Trek might have been a purely television phenomenon.

In this season, I don’t really understand Ed’s or Dani’s or Sam’s motivations.

Ed wants to secure his legacy of permanent human habitation of Mars, and wants to avoid the indignity of old age back on Earth. Dani wants to get the asteroid back to Earth so that she can go home and be a grandmother. Sam wants to be respected and seen, in a way she wasn't when her friend got killed at the beginning of the season and nobody seemed to give a shit.

I thought there was going to be some great character drama and social commentary on the conflict of labor and capital, a retro-future “company town” when you’re paid in scrip but you‘re literally on another planet and so literally can’t walk away. And just as that’s getting good, the show veers away resolving it all in handwaving to be distracted by a Dev subplot that’s not been adequately established.

I don't know that that's gone for good. Dev is playing nice now because he needs to in order to achieve his agenda with regard to the asteroid and Mars. Once the asteroid is safely in the orbit of Mars, he'll probably go right back to exploiting everybody.

I’m looking for “Hello, Bob” emotional experience. And S4 walks up to that, points and says here it is, I could totally do something awesome, and then turns away from it. Everytime.

]
Part of that is the evolution of space exploration. With "Hello, Bob" space was available only to a few exception people facing overwhelming adversity. Now there are thousands on the moon and Mars, and decisions are shaped by whole governments instead of individuals.

It does look like Friday's finale will knock over the chessboard all over again. So Season 5 is unlikely to be very similar to this season.

 

[DaveF]

There are few clear-cut good guys this season. Even our heroes from prior seasons are operating heavily in the grey this time around. If there's something to root for this season, it the continuing advancement of humanity into the cosmos.

That’s not the issue. It’s not about good guys or bad guys. It’s a problem with a season filled with characters with unclear motivations and unexplored consequences of those motivations.

Ed wants to secure his legacy of permanent human habitation of Mars, and wants to avoid the indignity of old age back on Earth. Dani wants to get the asteroid back to Earth so that she can go home and be a grandmother. Sam wants to be respected and seen, in a way she wasn't when her friend got killed at the beginning of the season and nobody seemed to give a shit.

That’s what it is this episode. Three episodes ago it was Ed wanting to get back at Dani. Seven episodes ago it was Ed not wanting to admit he’s old. Ten episodes ago it was Ed was afraid to return to Earth and face the reality of life without Karen and all the mistakes he’d made as a Father.

This “build a legacy” justification is not his clear, consistent throughline and feels bolted on this final episode. I don’t really believe it. At most, Ed is lying to himself and convinced himself he has grand, altruistic motivations rather than acknowledge and deal with his rather petty motivations.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

That’s what it is this episode. Three episodes ago it was Ed wanting to get back at Dani. Seven episodes ago it was Ed not wanting to admit he’s old. Ten episodes ago it was Ed was afraid to return to Earth and face the reality of life without Karen and all the mistakes he’d made as a Father.

I definitely get what you're saying there, but I would argue that Ed's fear of his own aging and dying badly is at the root of all of those.

Part of why he fought so hard for the female cosmonaut is because she made him feel virile and desirable. As for his fear of returning to Earth at the beginning of the season: We assumed that was the case, and I think Kelly assumed that was the case, but it was never stated as such by Ed. There's always been a selfish streak in Ed, right from the beginning of the series, so it makes more sense to me that his reason for not returning to Earth is about him rather than Karen. He loved Karen, but I think he loves himself more.

 

[jayembee]

His comment about staying on Mars in order "to do something that matters" rang false to me. Not that I don't think that Ed believes that. It rings false to me because his participation in the space program since the beginning "mattered". He doesn't need to keep on keepin' on in order to cement his place in the -- to borrow a term from Star Trek -- human adventure.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The show is certainly committing to this arc for Ed as someone who once accomplished great things but who cannot cede his time in the spotlight or control. It’s not really unrealistic in that sense - our own real history is littered with examples of people who had their moment in the sun and then wrecked their reputations in the long run by not being able to read the tea leaves and make a graceful exit.

It’s not even that I find the Ed character to be unbelievable - it’s more that I find it depressing to watch. It makes men like Neil Armstrong seem all the more remarkable that they had the ability to step back rather than risk poisoning their legacy.

All of this does sort of bring a potential series endgame more in focus. It seems as if we’re looking at the rise of humanity being a two planet species, where both become independent entities rather than sharing a colonizer/colony role. It can’t be a storytelling accident that Ed’s grandson, conceived on Mars, has health issues that make his existence on Earth difficult but that are abated being on Mars. It looks like we’re seeing the beginning of humanity branch into two similar but subtlety different species that will make it difficult for people born on Mars to live on Earth, which certainly raises a whole set of political and practical considerations for how governance of Mars should be handled. That background story is a little more interesting to me than the weekly foreground exploration of “what selfish thing will Ed do this week in a desperate bid for diminishing relevance?”.

 

[jayembee]

All of this does sort of bring a potential series endgame more in focus. It seems as if we’re looking at the rise of humanity being a two planet species, where both become independent entities rather than sharing a colonizer/colony role. It can’t be a storytelling accident that Ed’s grandson, conceived on Mars, has health issues that make his existence on Earth difficult but that are abated being on Mars. It looks like we’re seeing the beginning of humanity branch into two similar but subtlety different species that will make it difficult for people born on Mars to live on Earth, which certainly raises a whole set of political and practical considerations for how governance of Mars should be handled. That background story is a little more interesting to me than the weekly foreground exploration of “what selfish thing will Ed do this week in a desperate bid for diminishing relevance?”.

It's funny that there are any number of on-line articles about For All Mankind refer to it as something of (ie. not literally) a prequel to The Expanse. It always struck me as trying to up the reputation of FAM by linking it to that well-received show. But as Season 4 has gone on, I can see that description sort-of playing out, intentionally or not. In the backstory of The Expanse, Mars was a straight-out colony of Earth's, but eventually broke away to become an independent planet, whose relationship with the mother world wasn't especially amicable. That's what it seems like is the future in this series.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I’ve tried multiple times to get into The Expanse and each time I’ve bailed during the first episode. It should be something that’s up my alley but what little I’ve seen of it struck me as being so dark and nihilistic that I just couldn’t continue. I guess I just don’t want to watch a show that uses space as a backdrop for more stories of war and violence when there’s possibility to use that setting for something so much greater than that. But it’s a show that’s loved by so many voices on this forum that I normally find myself sharing tastes with that I’m surprised I’ve had such difficulty with it.

 

[Sean Bryan]

It's funny that there are any number of on-line articles about For All Mankind refer to it as something of (ie. not literally) a prequel to The Expanse. It always struck me as trying to up the reputation of FAM by linking it to that well-received show. But as Season 4 has gone on, I can see that description sort-of playing out, intentionally or not. In the backstory of The Expanse, Mars was a straight-out colony of Earth's, but eventually broke away to become an independent planet, whose relationship with the mother world wasn't especially amicable. That's what it seems like is the future in this series.

That’s the type of dynamic that I think is inevitable with this type of colonization. The home world is always going to be looking for what they can get from their colony. How can the resources of this new world make life better on Earth. They invested heavily in getting there and expect the colony to function as resource.

But the colony, once it reaches the point where it can be self sufficient, is going to be thinking about how they can improve life on this new world. What they can build it into. And they’d be looking at Earth taking their resources, etc… and start talking about independence. Of course Earth won’t like that.

Some degree of war would be likely.

 

[Sean Bryan]

The Expanse is arguably the best Sci-Fi series in a long, long time.

The relatively realistic depiction of the mechanics of space travel combined with interesting, flawed human characters, the sociopolitical aspects of various worlds in the solar system being at odds over resources and the really cool “high concept” sci-fi that is woven into the fabric of this more “grounded” space story is really something special.