Denon Backlash? (1 Viewer)

[Randy G]

If anybody's interested, I know a small b&m who happily sells Denon, Onkyo, Integra, etc. for 20% off of list. I've hooked up several members of this forum and have yet to hear a complaint. You can e-mail me at [email protected] for details.

 

[StevenK]

I apologize for perhaps not understanding the economics involved with all of this, but it seems to me we are living in a new age of information technology and the internet has become an just as an important part of our lives as the local downtown merchants. I say buying off the internet is not damaging the so-called infrastructure at all, but rather strenthening it on a global basis. In fact, the internet is doing a great job is destroying monopolistic habits of certain B&M stores. Certainly, there are quite a few B&M stores that I would give my business to for the sake of service and a friendly smile. But when it comes to hi-end audio/video B&M store, the service and "smile" (which tight-wallet people like me rarely see) are hardly worth the 100% markup on some items (read NHT speakers!!!!). The death of the local hifi "infrastructure" is due in no part to the consumers who seek bargains on the internet but due to the actual B&M stores who believe this is still the mid-80's and they are the only choice for a certain product and can charge what they like. B&M stores must evolve or die, not expect us to follow them into the grave.
PS 1: What makes people think that running internet stores are less costly than running a B&M store? Imagine the costs of the servers, upkeep, system maintenance, and phone support of a store like Onecall...it's hardly a trivial matter. Yes, there are retailers out their that run their business off a linux box stuff inside their closets (read crazy eddie ), but there are plenty of reputable e-tailers that run legit, expensive operations that cost a pretty penny to maintain.
P@ 2: I don't mean to generally bash all B&M stores. I know there are stores that do a great service to customers for just being there. In Sacramento, for example, Paradyme Audio has the nicest salesmen and are willing to negotiate on ALL their products, sometimes giving steep discounts. My first speaker purchase was a pair of Paradigm Titans that the salesman spent an hour helping me purchase while letting other salesmen pick up potential bigger sales and givin' em to me at 30% off retail! But just down the street a little is another B&M store (AudioFX) that wouldn't even talk to me until I had to clothesline a sales guy to stop. They offered the NHT 2.5i to me at the bargain price of $1400....and said I was even lucky to be able to get them at all. Unfortunately, having in shopped in Sacramento, San Fran, L.A., Orange County, Austin, Houston, and Dallas, I find B&M stores like AudioFX outnumbering stores like Paradyme 10 to 1.

 

[Earl Simpson]

Hey Marvin! I bet you never realized you would stir up a hornets nest.
I believe in the free enterprise system. Fixing prices does not fall into that category.
And/// I would have bought from a local store if I had one. Rexes told me to go on the internet and buy. They did not and could not get the high end stuff. No Denon dealer for at least 200 miles. Oades is actually the closest dealer to me for anything worth buying and that is a 2.5 hour drive.
Rexes and Sears have been great about prices on everything so far. Its just the selection is small.

 

[JerryW]

Ok... Crazy Eddie's isn't a good example I guess. I have purchased from them in the past without a problem, but maybe that's different now. Still, considering that I can buy a 3802 for $779 from JandR, that says quite a bit about my local B&M (who won't sell for less than $1199). Hell, I'd have to pay $799 for a 2802 if I bought it locally. What a joke.
Here's another interesting tidbit. I went into that store a couple weeks ago to browse (they do have some really cool displays) and ran across a used 3801 that someone had recently traded in. I asked the sales guy how much they were selling it for and he replied, "I think we have it marked down to $850, that's a heck of a deal". I just shook my head and walked away.

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

"I think we have it marked down to $850, that's a heck of a deal".

He's right, it is a heck of a deal--for the store.

 

[Bill Lucas]

John,
I am not affiliated with a retailer. I own and operate a custom installation company. You guys are not my target market. I won't carry products that are "whored" (as Obi put it) on the Internet or deeply discounted because there is a level of service that I provide that calls for a higher price tag. I also don't move individual black boxes. To be a client of mine you'd have to be looking for a complete installed system (and willing to pay the price for superlative service ). If you came to me and asked to buy a single product that I carry I'd refer you to a retailer. BTW, if I *were* a retailer would that make my views any less credible or valid?
We're not talking about dickering over a few dollars here. We all know that the automobile dealer is likely to make up for lost dollars elsewhere (particularly on the financing end of the deal). They're not going to sell a car that they won't make money on. Many Internet dealers are working on a business theory that has proven to fail each and every time that it has been implemented. Their theory is that you can make up lost margin with volume sales. It simply doesn't work.
Let's look at Dunlavey. People rave about the product and then brag about the deep discounts they got when they purchased the speaker. Well, what do they like? The sound of the speaker or the fact that it sold for 50% or 70% or whatever of list price? Either the list price is ficticious or the speaker isn't worth its price and doesn't perform at a level that is even close to the list price.
Now look at Dynaudio (I'm not a Dynaudio dealer). You get maybe a 10% discount from a dealer and no one that buys them bitches about paying at or near list price. Why? Because the performance warrants the cost. My point is that people should buy for the best performance within their given price range and stop
worrying about who got the best price on a given product. I'm not seeing posts that say, "gee, if I could only afford the XYZ123 that lists for $999, I'd buy it". What I see is people that post, "there's no way in hell I'll buy XYZ123 for $999!! If I can't get it for $729 including shipping I didn't get a good deal and was ripped off!". If people don't support the local economy they will no longer have local equipment to demo and the local economies will continue to suffer. :frowning:

 

[Marvin]

Hey Marvin! I bet you never realized you would stir up a hornets nest.

Yeah, but it was the other Marvin that did the stirring. (I guess that makes me one of the hornets.)

 

[Marvin]

... or should I say "whore-nets"?

 

[Marvin E]

earthpearl:

Not a bad job, huh!

I think in the case of Discount Home Electronics, the mere fact that they would post the discalimer on their Website should give some indication of the integrity of the company. Here is the full text:

We have suspended all sales of Toshiba projection TV's due to poor quality and service from Toshiba. We have dropped all Denon products due to their refusal to honor warranties.

Now would a company like Discount Home sell B-Stock Denon

Receivers? I don't think so. If an Internet non-authorized Dealer sells gray market merchandise after advertising New Factory Sealed receivers,isn't this fraud? Why should Denon penalize the consumer by not honoring the warranty?

 

[EricHaas]

Individuals trying to find the best price available is "irrational consumerism?" Wow, I need to go back and read some of those books on capitalism such as Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. I could swear I read that every dollar saved in a transaction is another dollar to spend somewhere else, and that people channelling their money in as many different places as possible is what drives the economy.

Warranties are way overrated. Buying a warranty is the same as buying an insurance policy - you never get back in claims anywhere near what you pay out in premiums in the long run. The manufacturers/insurers know this or they wouldn't be selling it to you. And you are not getting a warranty for free when it comes with a purchase. Rather, the cost of servicing the warranty is factored into the purchase price, plus an additional profit margin on the servicing. This way, the manfacturer gets to make more money while propogating the myth that they "take care of their customers."

I have bought 107 items on the Internet in the last 6 years (yes, I have kept a log.) Of those, 93 have been either computer parts (I have assembled 6 computers) or consumer electronics. Some have come with warranties; most haven't. Of those 107 items, I returned 1 (a harddrive) that was DOA to the retailer, who promptly replaced it. I have never had any of these items go out in what would have been a warranty period. Not once. Now I could have gone to B&M stores and spent 30% more on this stuff. That would have been probably another $15K I'd be out right now. And will I regret it the day I finally "get burned"? Heck no. Even if my next receiver costs $800 and dies 1 day after the vendor's return policy elapses, AND is totally unfixable at any price short of the full MSRP, I am still way ahead.

Speaking of receivers, I just picked up the very Denon 3801 which is mentioned in Jerry's post for $500 brand new in the box. Online of course. But hey, For that money I could have gotten the 1802 instead from my local Good Guys, and I would have gotten a 24 month warranty instead of the seller's 90-day return policy. Irrational consumerism? You be the judge.

My income is meant for many things, not the least of which is supporting a household and balancing with that my interest in home theater and computers. Sorry, but I just can't see my way clear to alotting any as charitable donations to failing B&M establishments who for the most part haven't yet figured out how to compete with the better online sellers.

 

[StevenK]

EricHaas-

Totally off topic, but could you point me to the $500 Denon? I'm desperately looking for a receiver right now and damn does that sound good.

 

[Terrell]

Sorry! I agree with Obi. Give me an authorized dealer with expertise, great service, a demo in-home trial, and most of all a manufacturers warranty over online mess any day of the week. I never buy from online for the reasons listed above, especially if they aren't authorized. I've been burned on that before. And it is whoring out your product. I never buy retail. You can always find an authorized dealer that will give you a discount, if you look hard enough.

Online retailers offer ridiculous prices solely to compete with authorized dealers. No thanks.

Warranties are way overrated. Buying a warranty is the same as buying an insurance policy - you never get back in claims anywhere near what you pay out in premiums in the long run. The manufacturers/insurers know this or they wouldn't be selling it to you. And you are not getting a warranty for free when it comes with a purchase. Rather, the cost of servicing the warranty is factored into the purchase price, plus an additional profit margin on the servicing. This way, the manfacturer gets to make more money while propogating the myth that they "take care of their customers."

Sorry, but I don't buy into that logic. You buy from an online retailer with no warranty, and have your product break on you like mind did with me, and you're screwed royally. Take your chances if you want, but not me. I've been burned. Sooner or later, if you stay interested in this long enough, and you'll get burned too, if your product messes up. Would you not buy life insurance simply because the chances of you dying is slim? It's the same thing with warranty, albeit less serious.

 

[EricHaas]

Steven: The deal I got was for a demo model and was the only 1 this dealer had. For a good price on Denon and sometimes Onkyo and HK, check out Ubid.com. The stuff there goes for about 10-15% under the lowest online street price (30-50% below retail). It is all factory refurbished, but you get a 90-day manufacturers warranty with it, as opposed to a standard 30 day dealer return policy. A few days ago, they sold 6 3801's for $509 apiece. Not sure what is up there at the moment. Sometimes you have to wait to see what pops up. Everything I have gotten from them has been the same as new, but I have on ocassion seen a complaint that some item was dinged or scratched a little out of the box.

 

[Mark Austin]

My income is meant for many things, not the least of which is supporting a household and balancing with that my interest in home theater and computers. Sorry, but I just can't see my way clear to alotting any as charitable donations to failing B&M establishments who for the most part haven't yet figured out how to compete with the better online sellers.

Income is meant for many things, very true. I can't fault someone for being able to purchase something they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise, but realize that choice comes at a cost. As you move up the chain it becomes more important to have a local dealer. The etailers are not selling at a price they themselves can be profitable with in the long term, and thus the end result will be something worse off for everyone.

 

[EricHaas]

Can someone tell me how to use the quote feature?

"LOL! That's a theory my good friend. And what often times theory is guilty of is over simplification of the issue in real world applications.

Those of us that still like to listen/look to/at a product before we buy understand the value of the B&M. Sure, it's great to get the lowest price possible shopping on the net. You can typically get more than your budget would allow. But, you miss out on the in-home audition, the generous trade-in policy, knowing that the person you bought it from is 5-10 minutes away, and has been there for a decade, or more."

Uh, who says I don't use B&M stores to audition the products? I ALWAYS do, and will usually give the retailer a chance to price match the online. They almost never do.

Remember what I said was in response to another poster saying that wanting to pay less is "irrational." If people want to pay more for those extras that you cite above, so be it. Sounds reasonable to me. But wanting to stretch your dollar as far as possible isn't really what I would call "irrational" either.

"Why in the heck do any of us buy insurance???? What fools we are! Have a $1500 piece of equipment crap out on you just once, and see how much you think warranties are way overrated."

You buy insurance to purchase peace of mind. That is a commodity in and of itself. And it has to be, because few in the long run will get back from the insurer/warrantor more than they pay out. Peace of mind is great when you face damage on a sliding scale, like liability for a car accident which could sink you forever. But on a piece of merchandise with a specific, quantified value, it doesn't make sense to pay for the warranty what they charge (either built in or separately). But then, we all place different subjective value on peace of mind.

And no, I will not regret it the first time it happens to me. Like I said, I will make out WAY better in the long run. It's a fact and not really a debatable one in my case, or even in the majority of cases.

"Income is meant for many things, very true. I can't fault someone for being able to purchase something they wouldn't be able to afford otherwise, but realize that choice comes at a cost."

Agreed.

"As you move up the chain it becomes more important to have a local dealer. The etailers are not selling at a price they themselves can be profitable with in the long term, and thus the end result will be something worse off for everyone."

Not sure about that. Survival of the fittest works just fine for everyone. And lower prices, be they temporary or permanent, are of value to consumers individually and the economy as a whole.

 

[Mark Austin]

Not sure about that. Survival of the fittest works just fine for everyone. And lower prices, be they temporary or permanent, are of value to consumers individually and the economy as a whole.

I liken that way of thinking to throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You want the ability to go see in person the product you may purchase, but you don't want to anti-up for the privelege. Anyway, I don't think the etailers will survive long enough to have that great of an impact. As has prven true in every other business, people like to see, feel, and touch the product.

 

[Kevin T]

Can someone tell me how to use the quote feature?

sure...when you hit "post reply" or whatever look at the dialog buttons...there is one called "quote" right underneath the "color" drop down menu and next to the "list" button. sorry for not contributing to the post but i've said my peace already.

kevin t

 

[Brian Schucher]

Well i dont know about all of you but the two "Salons" in my are that I did business with would not allow take home auditions and had NO RETURN policies. Exchanges only within 7 days.. Sorry but thats not service thats worth the added expense..

 

[AntonS]

Those of us that still like to listen/look to/at a product before we buy understand the value of the B&M. Sure, it's great to get the lowest price possible shopping on the net. You can typically get more than your budget would allow. But, you miss out on the in-home audition, the generous trade-in policy, knowing that the person you bought it from is 5-10 minutes away, and has been there for a decade, or more.

Well, you need this stuff, you pay for it, it's your choice. But what about those of us who don't want any of the services mentined above? I would not go to a B/M store. I hate going to these places. I haven't found ANY store around that can really help me buy (or not buy) a product. Usually there is no way to compare several brands at the same time, as they all carry only one or two. None of them would give you 3-4 units at the same time to take home for auditioning. The people that work there are moslty salesmen, not audiophiles. They don't even know their products. Some of them cannot connect equipment the way I want it to be connected. Their goal is to play their sale's pitch and make a sell with 80%-100% profit so they can buy a new BMW. Why should I pay for their BMW if all they would do for me is to write an invoce?

But I do want warranty. I'm byuing a new product which happens to be a pretty complex piece of electronics. It can break. Break because it has a MANUFACTURER's DEFECT. Why on Earth the manufacturer would refuse to repair a new unit if it's their own fault? What a local "authorized" shop has to do with manufacturer's screw-up? And I even would not want to bring a faulty unit to the "authorized" dealer for repairs, I'd better pack and ship it directly to the Denon's repair service. Btw I'm not talking about hypothetical "grey" market, but something sold in the US that was supposed to be sold in the US, new in a box with a valid serial number - and no warranty?

Anyway, I wanted to buy a Denon 5803 (it will appear online for around $2500-2800), but screw them with their "pay $4300 MSRP or no warranty" game. Outlaw is coming out, they seem to be more reasonable on their pricing.

 

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Brian is right with his example. Many B&M's provide amazingly crappy service. I don't have the time or the energy to "cultivate a relationship" with my local B&M's. Consquently, if I buy something it is a crapshoot as to whether the service is going to be good or not. After being burned a couple of times in my college days when the internet was not an option, I decided that since I can't trust a B&M to provide demonstrable value in return for the extra money, I might as well save my money and take my chances elsewhere because (in my experience) I have just as much chance of getting screwed over by a e-tailer as I do a B&M. So, this lack of trust or faith in their ability to deliver on all the things that a B&M could and should deliver on, results in the stereotypical "race to the bottom."