College Police group get taser happy on annoying Florida student (1 Viewer)

[Paul Padilla]

Yes, he was asked to leave prior to the mic being shut off. He continued to rant that Kerry had spoken for over two hours and now it was his turn (paraphrasing). And he wasn't immediately dragged...they attempted to usher him away from the mic and he became defiant. He knew the officers were there from the first contact, so initiating from behind is irrelevant.

How is it more reasonable that the officers' training failed them as opposed to the (afik) untrained Meyers flailing out of control resulting in the handcuff problem?

As for grappling as an option here, police officers are certainly trained in hand to hand techniques but they are not, by and large, martial artists nor are they expected to be. The fact is that the end result of Meyers complying was only to be achieved by physical pain. He gave no other option. So whether it was a joint lock which still allows a split second of other limbs striking a blow, or the immediate siezing caused by the Taser, pain is what finally brought compliance. Grappling achieves it's goal by putting a joint, or joints, in their weakest position to hopefully cause the subject to instinctively acquiesce. If the subject continues to struggle, more pressure can be applied causing pain and eventually injury if the struggle itself doesn't produce that result. The "loving attack" and "peaceful reconciliation" of Aikido is often very violent as you say. These techniques have to be applied quickly and efficiently to be effective. Once someone is bearing down and struggling they aren't that easy to apply. Just watch the UFC or any match using the disciplines mentioned above.

The point of any martial arts system isn't even compliance. The only real goal is to stop the fight. Nothing more, nothing less. The method that stops the fight begins as simply as talking one's way out of it and escalates from there depending on the opponent's motivation and fervor to fight. I liken it to the Black Knight in The Holy Grail. It stops only when the opponent stops or when (in the extreme) one is dead.

 

[KevinGress]

Then what was appropriate? Grappling, as has been suggested? That, which also has been suggested, would open up the possibility of injury. And that would have created a bigger outcry about brutality.

Some like to go on about how 4-6 officers could easily handle one, skinny, person. My question is, how many officers were there? They are there to maintain order. If 4-6 officers were occupied with one scoff-law for even a couple of minutes trying to remove him, that would have created a very dangerous lapse in protection for Sen. Kerry. Ever hear of 'distraction'?! The officers handled the situation reasonably well- no one was injured, especially Sen. Kerry.

And that's the key to tossing around the term 'excessive'. No bones were broken, no injuries sustained, just a brief moment of pain that quickly faded, except from the memory.

What I absolutely cannot believe I'm reading is that so many are quick to absolve someone who was going out of his way to be disruptive - not just offensive, but actually, disruptive.

We, as a society, have employed these people to maintain order, and so, we are charged, as citizens, to assist them with their duties by acting in a lawful, and orderly fashion. We are to respect their authority because we, as a society, have given them that authority. It's not blind alligience, but rather a citizen's healthy respect for others.

 

[KurtEP]

Very true, any MA that has a goal that is less than that ends up being fatally flawed. It's good to talk to someone who understands that.

 

[KurtEP]

They were grappling through most of the altercation, or trying to. My suggestion was simply that more skilled grappling would have probably carried the day much quicker and without resorting to the use of a weapon.

 

[KevinGress]

To go along with this, strikes and kicks are used to shorten the fight - 'punish' or dissuade the attacker from continuing. Martial artists will tell you that merely dodging is a risky strategy - it prolongs the fight which increases the chance of getting hurt.

I'd say the officers in this case acted similarly. Use enough force to shorten the 'fight' as much as possible without injurying the offender/attacker.

 

[KevinGress]

Possibly. But limbs are weapons as well, and can be deadlier than any tazer- especially by one so trained.

The focus should be squarely on the force used and the outcome from that use. I argue that a short, quick and focused burst of force that did no long-term damage is better than a prolonged burst of force that could have increased the chance for injury.

 

[cafink]

I believe the words I used to describe his behavior were "unwise," "confrontational," and "stupid." Not exactly an absolution.

 

[Jason Seaver]

And what I can't believe is that so many people are quick to laud the use of violence on someone who is merely being disruptive (or that disruptive is worse than being offensive, for that matter).

 

[Chuck Mayer]

It's minimal violence. The UF attention whore suffered NOTHING permanent from it 10 minutes later.

I don't laud it...but I also don't immediately criticize someone (the officers charged with the safety and security of that room and it's inhabitants) who has a much harder job than I do from some selective youtube videos.

Double-edged there, Jason.

 

[bobbyg2]

Anyone who's dumb enough to struggle with the cops after being warned that they'll use a taser deserves to be tasered.

 

[Holadem]

I am now convinced you are a Cylon.

--
H

 

[Paul Padilla]

Let's not oversimplify. "Merely" disruptive was barely the leading edge of his behavior.

 

[KurtEP]

Well, I agree that if they had done it earlier, people would have probably complained, but it would have been far better. They seemed to have a lot of opportunities to control him early on that they should have taken and gotten him outside immediately.

As to whether it was too late after that, perhaps I overestimate the skill level available with the police. All of the police I've dealt with were heavily involved in the MA and extremely dangerous in hand to hand. It could be that the average officers don't have anywhere near the skill set that is necessary to really handle such a situation. I'd hope otherwise, but I really don't deal with them on a day to day basis anymore so I don't know. I just wasn't too impressed with what I saw there.

 

[Mort Corey]

Wow...rough neighborhood. In my parts they would have smothered him with jelly doughnuts or drowned him with coffee (well, probably a latte these days)

Mort

 

[KurtEP]

I met these guys in various dojos and kwoons I've been associated with over the years, not my neighborhood.

Surprisingly, the town I grew up in didn't even have its own police force (and still doesn't, as far as I know).

 

[ChristopherDAC]

The guy was acting like a prick, and should have been thrown out, no question. The proper person to do that is an usher, not a policeman. Whoever decided that the police should be the people in charge of the meeting should be chastised — it's not their job, and they don't do it well. Under the circumstances, this deplorable incident was totally predictable. Well, apparently we are talking university police here. University PDs tend to be staffed with burnout cases and no-hopers, and on the institutional level they couldn't deal with the famous liquid in the boot. And the following is a rant. There are rules of civilized behaviour. One of them is that you do not employ violence against somebody, even though he is being a prick. Unfortunately, police in the United States habitually behave as though they have a license to ignore these rules. Apparently they feel that, since they "have the law on their side", their actions cannot be questioned, and their instructions must be obeyed. And, since the public has chosen to give them the option of violence, that it is their privilege to employ it as often as, and however, they choose. As a citizen of the United States, I have the right to get shirty with a policeman if I damned well please, and to question his instructions if in my judgement they are not proper to the situation. I have the right to refuse his instructions if they lie outside the bounds of his legal authority. Unfortunately, policemen in general refuse to recognize any bounds to their authority, or the respect they demand. That so many civilians seem to take this attitude disturbs me no end. It is enough to be harassed and brutalized by stuffed shirts of thief-takers, but that this type of behaviour on the part of supposed public servants is not only tolerated but praised is degrading in the citizens of a democratic republic.

 

[bobbyg2]

What the heck is a "Cylon"?

 

[Bryan X]

That's just so wrong. I suppose now you're going to claim you don't know what a "Sleestack" is.

 

[Nathan*W]

Welcome to the land of the gross generalization. According to the Department of Justice, in 2004 there were over 800,000 cops in the U.S. Pretty broad brush you're using to cover them all.

 

[cafink]

Unless they pose a danger to someone, then no, you still do not employ violence against them.