Blacker-than-Black on the Panny RP82 - What's the real deal?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Ryan Patterson, Jan 16, 2003.

  1. Ryan Patterson

    Ryan Patterson Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 1999
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    I tried out the RP82 last month, and although I liked its performance, I couldn't get it to do BTB in any form... ie. composite, S-Video, component (lighter & darker modes), and progressive component. My older Panny RV-41 handles BTB fine in all modes, and I decided to stick with it for now as I found my Sony KP43HT20 had a very good Cinemotion (3-2 pulldown) mode.
    However, I see that Home Theater Hi Fi's latest shootout states that the RP82 can do BTB. What's the deal here? Was there a firmware upgrade somewhere down the line where the BTB problem was fixed? I don't have my unit anymore so I can't tell you it's manufacture date or firmware number, but if I decide to pick it up again, what should I be looking for?
    Also, I should add that the shootout specified that the layer change took 1.75 seconds. I have to disagree with this as I found the change time to be the same as my RV41: about 0.75 seconds. I wonder if a possible firmware upgrade caused the layer change to slow down?
    Thanks for your input,
    Ryan
     
  2. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ryan,

    What did you use to evaluate the layer change? We use a test disc designed to demonstrate the worst possible layer change a DVD player will encounter. It takes place at the max bit rate DVD allows.

    For BTB, we use a test pattern that goes 4% below black to 4% above white. We also double check on a PLUGE pattern. Only two players failed to pass BTB.

    We plan to update the guide showing scope shots for each video test. (not per player but just to show each pattern.) The example we use for each photo is the RP82.

    We did not look at 480i at all, just 480p with the darker setting. I need to double check this weekend if the darker / lighter has any effect on the 480p out.
    Was there a firmware update? Good question, I don't know.

    Was the RV-41 progressive or just interlaced? It is possible your display might not like BTB on 480p. The NEC LT150 I used to use clipped BTB.

    Just some random thoughts.
     
  3. Ryan Patterson

    Ryan Patterson Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 1999
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Stacey,
    Wow, I never realized I'd get a response from one of the people who participated in the shootout! I feel all blushed... [​IMG] Anyway, kudos to your excellent work on the DVD shootouts. I know it's a lot of hard work for you guys, and if only the DVD player companies would read your reports with as much enthusiasm as we do, then you would have no need to write them! [​IMG]
    Anyway, I'm sorry but I didn't realize that layer changes were different with each movie. I tried the change on a few movies like Episode II, Spider-Man, Aliens, and Ghostbusters, but I never encountered a layer change that took a full 1.75 seconds.
    I used the low and high picture-level pluge patterns in Video Essentials for the BTB tests. Unfortunately, none of them worked (including the color bar pluge). As I stated, I tried the RP82 in interlaced mode for component (and obviously composite and S-Video, which are both always interlaced) but I couldn't get the BTB to appear.
    The RV41 is just an interlaced player. It's a tough decision to replace it as I bought it less than 18 months ago, and the Sony TV does a very good job at deinterlacing. (It's not 100% when it comes to material with problematic cadence, such as TV shows shot on film but edited on video, but it doesn't comb as badly as my friend's JVC progressive player.) I know some people here buy new DVD players every 6 months (or even more often!) but if I can get away with keeping my current player a little longer, then I'm not complaining!
    Anyways, thanks for your input. If you can get your hands on the manufactured date for the unit, I'd be much appreciated.
    Cheers,
    Ryan
     
  4. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    The RP82 does not pass BTB in interlaced mode and is why it only received a "recommended 480p" award. It will not get one for 480i.
     
  5. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    so should we select "lighter" or "darker" in the players menu?
     
  6. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    John, for 480i or 480p?

    I would double check this weekend, but it should not matter for 480p as it should always output black at 0 IRE. I don't recall if this is how RP82 behaves but will find out.

    What is very important is that after you select lighter or darker, you must re-adjust brightness using a test pattern on VE, Avia, or S&V. (NOT THX Optimode.)
     
  7. Ryan Patterson

    Ryan Patterson Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 1999
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stacey,

    Interesting, although I personally could not get BTB to appear with progressive mode on using the VE charts. I know that progressive mode was switched on, as my Sony TV disables all DRC modes (including 16:9 vertical squeeze detection) when the progressive mode is activated.

    If I decide to pick it up again (which is only 50/50 at this point), I will have to try to get a newer model.
     
  8. Kevin Nolan

    Kevin Nolan Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2000
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stacey I have a Panny CP72.
    I believe it has the same electronics (Sage/FJ chipset and MPEG decoder) that the 82 has can I expect it to pass as well as the 82?
     
  9. Ken_F

    Ken_F Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 1998
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ryan,

    For progressive mode on the RP82 to work correctly, I believe you have to enable it in two places. First, you need to press the "progressive out" on the front of the DVD player; a light will display indicating that progressive is on. Second, you have to set the output as progressive in the player's menu.

    I could have sworn the RP82 passed BTB on my old HDTV set, but I have not tested/configured in quite some time.
     
  10. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  11. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  12. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike
    Japan used 7.5 until it was no longer needed. It is a legacy issue that has been resolved. We, for some reason, did not get rid of it for SD.
    The US put black back at 0 IRE for HD because that is where it belongs. The same thing was done for 480p. Black was only at 7.5 IRE because of a broadcast limitation a very, very, very long time ago.
    Btw, I think you put a quote up from another thread because I don't recall talking about DTS. [​IMG]
    Kind of off topic, but not, is that Pioneer has always offered a custom memory per input. They also offer more than one component input.
    Toshiba, on the other hand, has always offered one custom memory for all inputs. That means when you switch between HD and SD, you will have to re-adjust brightness.
    The content on DVD is not at 7.5 IRE. It is actually recorded at 0 IRE. (ok, level 16 in the digital domain, but then I digress.) It is the DVD player that has to add the 7.5 IRE setup.
    There is also no setup over DVI.
     
  13. Daryl L

    Daryl L Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 1999
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    0
    StaceyS,
     
  14. StaceyS

    StaceyS Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2000
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    Daryl
    Well, it is about time they offer that! [​IMG]
     
  15. RANDY FISHER

    RANDY FISHER Second Unit

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 1998
    Messages:
    285
    Likes Received:
    0
    "As I stated in my previous post, this memory does nothing when that "1" component input is shared with several component video device's outputs that are both 7.5 IRE and 0 IRE."

    My XBR does it right. There are several "picture" settings that are not tied any particular input. You can use any one of the (4) different picture setting for any input source. Feel free to mix and match with Sony.

    Randy
     
  16. Daryl L

    Daryl L Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 1999
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    0
     

Share This Page