Blacker-than-Black on the Panny RP82 - What's the real deal? (1 Viewer)

[Ryan Patterson]

I tried out the RP82 last month, and although I liked its performance, I couldn't get it to do BTB in any form... ie. composite, S-Video, component (lighter & darker modes), and progressive component. My older Panny RV-41 handles BTB fine in all modes, and I decided to stick with it for now as I found my Sony KP43HT20 had a very good Cinemotion (3-2 pulldown) mode.
However, I see that Home Theater Hi Fi's latest shootout states that the RP82 can do BTB. What's the deal here? Was there a firmware upgrade somewhere down the line where the BTB problem was fixed? I don't have my unit anymore so I can't tell you it's manufacture date or firmware number, but if I decide to pick it up again, what should I be looking for?
Also, I should add that the shootout specified that the layer change took 1.75 seconds. I have to disagree with this as I found the change time to be the same as my RV41: about 0.75 seconds. I wonder if a possible firmware upgrade caused the layer change to slow down?
Thanks for your input,
Ryan

 

[StaceyS]

Ryan,

What did you use to evaluate the layer change? We use a test disc designed to demonstrate the worst possible layer change a DVD player will encounter. It takes place at the max bit rate DVD allows.

For BTB, we use a test pattern that goes 4% below black to 4% above white. We also double check on a PLUGE pattern. Only two players failed to pass BTB.

We plan to update the guide showing scope shots for each video test. (not per player but just to show each pattern.) The example we use for each photo is the RP82.

We did not look at 480i at all, just 480p with the darker setting. I need to double check this weekend if the darker / lighter has any effect on the 480p out.
Was there a firmware update? Good question, I don't know.

Was the RV-41 progressive or just interlaced? It is possible your display might not like BTB on 480p. The NEC LT150 I used to use clipped BTB.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[Ryan Patterson]

Hi Stacey,
Wow, I never realized I'd get a response from one of the people who participated in the shootout! I feel all blushed... Anyway, kudos to your excellent work on the DVD shootouts. I know it's a lot of hard work for you guys, and if only the DVD player companies would read your reports with as much enthusiasm as we do, then you would have no need to write them!
Anyway, I'm sorry but I didn't realize that layer changes were different with each movie. I tried the change on a few movies like Episode II, Spider-Man, Aliens, and Ghostbusters, but I never encountered a layer change that took a full 1.75 seconds.
I used the low and high picture-level pluge patterns in Video Essentials for the BTB tests. Unfortunately, none of them worked (including the color bar pluge). As I stated, I tried the RP82 in interlaced mode for component (and obviously composite and S-Video, which are both always interlaced) but I couldn't get the BTB to appear.
The RV41 is just an interlaced player. It's a tough decision to replace it as I bought it less than 18 months ago, and the Sony TV does a very good job at deinterlacing. (It's not 100% when it comes to material with problematic cadence, such as TV shows shot on film but edited on video, but it doesn't comb as badly as my friend's JVC progressive player.) I know some people here buy new DVD players every 6 months (or even more often!) but if I can get away with keeping my current player a little longer, then I'm not complaining!
Anyways, thanks for your input. If you can get your hands on the manufactured date for the unit, I'd be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Ryan

 

[StaceyS]

The RP82 does not pass BTB in interlaced mode and is why it only received a "recommended 480p" award. It will not get one for 480i.

 

[John Royster]

so should we select "lighter" or "darker" in the players menu?

 

[StaceyS]

John, for 480i or 480p?

I would double check this weekend, but it should not matter for 480p as it should always output black at 0 IRE. I don't recall if this is how RP82 behaves but will find out.

What is very important is that after you select lighter or darker, you must re-adjust brightness using a test pattern on VE, Avia, or S&V. (NOT THX Optimode.)

 

[Ryan Patterson]

Stacey,

Interesting, although I personally could not get BTB to appear with progressive mode on using the VE charts. I know that progressive mode was switched on, as my Sony TV disables all DRC modes (including 16:9 vertical squeeze detection) when the progressive mode is activated.

If I decide to pick it up again (which is only 50/50 at this point), I will have to try to get a newer model.

 

[Kevin Nolan]

Stacey I have a Panny CP72.
I believe it has the same electronics (Sage/FJ chipset and MPEG decoder) that the 82 has can I expect it to pass as well as the 82?

 

[Ken_F]

Ryan,

For progressive mode on the RP82 to work correctly, I believe you have to enable it in two places. First, you need to press the "progressive out" on the front of the DVD player; a light will display indicating that progressive is on. Second, you have to set the output as progressive in the player's menu.

I could have sworn the RP82 passed BTB on my old HDTV set, but I have not tested/configured in quite some time.

 

[StaceyS]

7.5 IRE is the industrial standard.

That is incorrect. 7.5 is only the standard for NTSC 480i. The industry standard for 480p is 0 IRE. This is published in the spec EIA 770.2. HD also is at 0 IRE per EIA 770.3.

I do agree that there is a problem with conflicting standards and getting the most out of it. A good display should allow custom memories for every source. Of course when you use an external switcher, like your receiver, your receiver needs to handle this.

 

[StaceyS]

Do television's automatically sense the 480P, opposed to 480i, and lower their internal black level to 0 IRE and then go back to the industrial standard of 7.5 IRE when interlaced signals are detected?

Nothing should be auto. My display has a custom memory for every input. I adjust brightness on each source to properly set the control where it belongs.

480i in Europe and Japan is at 0 IRE. Only the US has black at 7.5 IRE and only for 480i.

As I said above, I agree that it is a problem and that the problem is in the display.

You may not be aware, but todays displays are actually 3 different TVs in one. They are are an SD TV, an ED TV, and an HD TV. Each one of these is a different TV standard. The TV must convert from the input to RGB using a different color matrix. Most don't.

So not only is black different (0 and 7.5) but so is color. You must adjust the color setting on DSS different than progressive DVD. HD is also different than the other two. Color is not as noticable as black, but it does need to be adjusted.

This is why each input must have its own custom memory so you can setup each source properly.

The problem is that 480i in the US is behind, so 7.5 IRE is the evil one.

 

[StaceyS]

Mike
Japan used 7.5 until it was no longer needed. It is a legacy issue that has been resolved. We, for some reason, did not get rid of it for SD.
The US put black back at 0 IRE for HD because that is where it belongs. The same thing was done for 480p. Black was only at 7.5 IRE because of a broadcast limitation a very, very, very long time ago.
Btw, I think you put a quote up from another thread because I don't recall talking about DTS.
Kind of off topic, but not, is that Pioneer has always offered a custom memory per input. They also offer more than one component input.
Toshiba, on the other hand, has always offered one custom memory for all inputs. That means when you switch between HD and SD, you will have to re-adjust brightness.
The content on DVD is not at 7.5 IRE. It is actually recorded at 0 IRE. (ok, level 16 in the digital domain, but then I digress.) It is the DVD player that has to add the 7.5 IRE setup.
There is also no setup over DVI.

 

[Daryl L]

StaceyS,

Toshiba, on the other hand, has always offered one custom memory for all inputs. That means when you switch between HD and SD, you will have to re-adjust brightness.

Actually my Toshiba 57HX81 can be calibrated seperately and saved in memory per each type of input, 1 memory for RF/Coaxial, 1 memory for RCA/S-Vid, 1 memory for both Component inputs.

 

[StaceyS]

Daryl
Well, it is about time they offer that!

 

[RANDY FISHER]

"As I stated in my previous post, this memory does nothing when that "1" component input is shared with several component video device's outputs that are both 7.5 IRE and 0 IRE."

My XBR does it right. There are several "picture" settings that are not tied any particular input. You can use any one of the (4) different picture setting for any input source. Feel free to mix and match with Sony.

Randy

 

[Daryl L]

Actually my Toshiba 57HX81 can be calibrated seperately and saved in memory per each type of input, 1 memory for RF/Coaxial, 1 memory for RCA/S-Vid, 1 memory for both Component inputs.

I forgot that on the 57HX81's component inputs I can calibrate each of them seperately also. I have one calibrated for my HD Cable Box/HD STB and the other different for my DVD player.