Blac level and contrast comparo plus peak-a-boo survey and looking for PJ demos.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Chris PC, Jun 20, 2004.

  1. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Rank these projectors in order of Best to Worst black level (BL) and contrast ratio (CR) (sort of lump both CR and BL evaluation together):

    Panasonic PT-300 vs Sanyo Z1 vs Panasonic PT-500 (in non-AI mode).

    When you rank, indicate how much better one is than the next using %.

    I am wondering, how does the PT-300 and Sanyo Z1 compare to the PT500 (in non-AI mode)? I may or may not include the Sanyo Z1 in my shopping, but I have seen the Z1 in action, so its important to use as a reference in comparison to the PT300 and PT500.

    Also, I've asked before and did not get an answer as to whether the PT500 in NON-AI mode is the same or better than the PT300 for Black Level and Contrast Ratio. This will solve that. I'm going to try and view a PT-300 and PT-500 in action for myself, so don't suggest that, as I'm already planning to. Just wanted feedback to fill a gap in BL and CR knowledge.

    Also looking for projector demos to learn about Black Level and Contrast Ratio and also about "Peak-a-boo scanlines and Peak-boo screendoor"

    I am in Ajax area, but depending on where you area, I may be willing to travel outside the GTA.

    Looking for demo's of:

    1) Panny PT300
    2) Panny PT500
    3) Sanyo Z2 or Studio Experience Matinee 2HD
    4) Hitachi PJ-TX100 (A long shot I know, but eventually they'll be around. Can currently be acquired by importing from Europe/UK now and Japan after June 21rst).

    I included the Hitachi because although its not available now, as the time passes, it will become available and Canadians will surely grab it.

    One thing I am really curious about, is exactly how much defocussing is required to eliminate peak-a-boo scanlines and peak-a-boo screendoor for the PT300 and PT500. I have a tiny bit on my AE100/L200 but defocussing gets rid of screendoor and the peak-a-boo's. I have also seen a Sanyo Z1 in action recently. Screendoor was slightly visible, but not horribly distracting, however, the peak-a-boo scanlines and peak-a-boo screendoor was extremely obvious and a little distracting to me. After a very slight defocus, there was no more peak-a-boo at all and no more screendoor. Nothing. Just a smooth picture. I may upgrade to the Hitachi, but if I can't afford it, I may go for a Panny 300 or 500. I want to know how much defocussing (after the flicker tweak) is required to eliminate peak-a-boo's and how sharp is it once defocussed.

    To return the offer to the AVS community, for anyone who is curious about starting out in Home Theatre, I have a Panny PT-L200U and I am willing to offer demo's of my projector. Its not for sale now, and I'm not positive I will be selling it, but you're welcome to come have a look.

    thanx for any demo offers or feedback

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Rank these projectors in order of Best to Worst black level (BL) and contrast ratio (CR) (sort of lump both CR and BL evaluation together):

    Panasonic PT-300 vs Sanyo Z1 vs Panasonic PT-500 (in non-AI mode).

    When you rank, indicate how much better one is than the next using %.

    I am wondering, how does the PT-300 and Sanyo Z1 compare to the PT500 (in non-AI mode)? I may or may not include the Sanyo Z1 in my shopping, but I have seen the Z1 in action, so its important to use as a reference in comparison to the PT300 and PT500.

    Also, I've asked before and did not get an answer as to whether the PT500 in NON-AI mode is the same or better than the PT300 for Black Level and Contrast Ratio. This will solve that. I'm going to try and view a PT-300 and PT-500 in action for myself, so don't suggest that, as I'm already planning to. Just wanted feedback to fill a gap in BL and CR knowledge.

    Also looking for projector demos to learn about Black Level and Contrast Ratio and also about "Peak-a-boo scanlines and Peak-boo screendoor"

    I am in Ajax area, but depending on where you area, I may be willing to travel outside the GTA.

    Looking for demo's of:

    1) Panny PT300
    2) Panny PT500
    3) Sanyo Z2 or Studio Experience Matinee 2HD
    4) Hitachi PJ-TX100 (A long shot I know, but eventually they'll be around. Can currently be acquired by importing from Europe/UK now and Japan after June 21rst).

    I included the Hitachi because although its not available now, as the time passes, it will become available and Canadians will surely grab it.

    One thing I am really curious about, is exactly how much defocussing is required to eliminate peak-a-boo scanlines and peak-a-boo screendoor for the PT300 and PT500. I have a tiny bit on my AE100/L200 but defocussing gets rid of screendoor and the peak-a-boo's. I have also seen a Sanyo Z1 in action recently. Screendoor was slightly visible, but not horribly distracting, however, the peak-a-boo scanlines and peak-a-boo screendoor was extremely obvious and a little distracting to me. After a very slight defocus, there was no more peak-a-boo at all and no more screendoor. Nothing. Just a smooth picture. I may upgrade to the Hitachi, but if I can't afford it, I may go for a Panny 300 or 500. I want to know how much defocussing (after the flicker tweak) is required to eliminate peak-a-boo's and how sharp is it once defocussed.

    To return the offer to the AVS community, for anyone who is curious about starting out in Home Theatre, I have a Panny PT-L200U and I am willing to offer demo's of my projector. Its not for sale now, and I'm not positive I will be selling it, but you're welcome to come have a look.

    thanx for any demo offers or feedback

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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  4. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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  5. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    If you haven't seen peak-a-boo scanlines, consider yourself lucky. Search AVS for more info on peak-a-boo.
     
  6. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    If you haven't seen peak-a-boo scanlines, consider yourself lucky. Search AVS for more info on peak-a-boo.
     
  7. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I see your posts there, but is this something you came up with on your own? I've never heard the term mentioned before, and furthermore, you are NOT seeing scanlines. So you may be seeing screendoor appearance, which varies on picture material, but you are CERTAINLY not seeing scan-lines.

    I've never heard of SDE visibility referred to as "peek-a-boo" I don't believe that's a very adequate term.
     
  8. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I see your posts there, but is this something you came up with on your own? I've never heard the term mentioned before, and furthermore, you are NOT seeing scanlines. So you may be seeing screendoor appearance, which varies on picture material, but you are CERTAINLY not seeing scan-lines.

    I've never heard of SDE visibility referred to as "peek-a-boo" I don't believe that's a very adequate term.
     
  9. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I see one post you describe it as this:


    Again, you have a digital projector, so you fundamentally are NOT seeing scanlines. If this is occuring during vertical panning, it may be bob&weave problems or other scaling/processing problems, but I don't think your terminology is at all appropriate for what you are describing. If this is not screen-door, which it doesn't seem like it, you are suffering problems elsewhere in your chain most likely. You are not seeing scanlines.
     
  10. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I see one post you describe it as this:


    Again, you have a digital projector, so you fundamentally are NOT seeing scanlines. If this is occuring during vertical panning, it may be bob&weave problems or other scaling/processing problems, but I don't think your terminology is at all appropriate for what you are describing. If this is not screen-door, which it doesn't seem like it, you are suffering problems elsewhere in your chain most likely. You are not seeing scanlines.
     
  11. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Its semantics. What I see, and what MANY countless others also see, looks "like" scanlines. Areas of the screen look broken up into horizontal lines, that is, the screen in that area looks more uniform across the horizontal line, than they look vertically. You see visible lines. Sometimes it looks like screendoor, but most often, its horizontal lines. I could go on, but, well, you have to see it to understand it, and yes, THEY LOOK LIKE SCANLINES. I'm well aware that LCD projectors are projecting a progressive picture, but I am SEEING HORIZONTAL LINES. Its not de-interlacing problems, I know what combing and other artifacts look like. It has to do with the way the lcd's are energized. Each LCD pixel's polarity is changed back and forth otherwise, the LCD will be damaged. I am not refering to seeing "scanlines" in the old large screen CRT way, where you "see" scanlines because you actually see the space between the scanlines. I'm seeing a specifically distinct horizontal lines making up the picture.
     
  12. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Its semantics. What I see, and what MANY countless others also see, looks "like" scanlines. Areas of the screen look broken up into horizontal lines, that is, the screen in that area looks more uniform across the horizontal line, than they look vertically. You see visible lines. Sometimes it looks like screendoor, but most often, its horizontal lines. I could go on, but, well, you have to see it to understand it, and yes, THEY LOOK LIKE SCANLINES. I'm well aware that LCD projectors are projecting a progressive picture, but I am SEEING HORIZONTAL LINES. Its not de-interlacing problems, I know what combing and other artifacts look like. It has to do with the way the lcd's are energized. Each LCD pixel's polarity is changed back and forth otherwise, the LCD will be damaged. I am not refering to seeing "scanlines" in the old large screen CRT way, where you "see" scanlines because you actually see the space between the scanlines. I'm seeing a specifically distinct horizontal lines making up the picture.
     
  13. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Ok, well, I'm not going to try to change the horrible semantics of en entire forum, but scanlines have a distinct definition that is limited to CRT and anything else that uses raster-scanning to create an image (I know of nothing else but CRT that uses this method). I have a CRT projector, and am intimately aware of scanline visibility issues, and what scanlines are. LCDs have no such similar scanlines (obviously).

    You may be seeing anomalies such as horizontal lines, but calling them scanlines is quite confusing.


    Which is why I was quite baffled since that's exactly what you called them: scanlines.
     
  14. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Ok, well, I'm not going to try to change the horrible semantics of en entire forum, but scanlines have a distinct definition that is limited to CRT and anything else that uses raster-scanning to create an image (I know of nothing else but CRT that uses this method). I have a CRT projector, and am intimately aware of scanline visibility issues, and what scanlines are. LCDs have no such similar scanlines (obviously).

    You may be seeing anomalies such as horizontal lines, but calling them scanlines is quite confusing.


    Which is why I was quite baffled since that's exactly what you called them: scanlines.
     
  15. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    Just call them vertical motion artifacts .... and be done with it. All LCD units have it to some degree.

    FO/FO CR specs cannot be used to judge what real performance CR actually is. We have no idea where the black or white clipping points are at.

    There is no assurance that a set with a higher FO/FO CR will have a better performance CR than a unit with a lower FO/FO CR number and its real performance CR.

    Regards
     
  16. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    Just call them vertical motion artifacts .... and be done with it. All LCD units have it to some degree.

    FO/FO CR specs cannot be used to judge what real performance CR actually is. We have no idea where the black or white clipping points are at.

    There is no assurance that a set with a higher FO/FO CR will have a better performance CR than a unit with a lower FO/FO CR number and its real performance CR.

    Regards
     
  17. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Wait, are we talking about vertical banding?

    If that's what you are seeing, then call it vertical banding, not this "scanlines" business... that way we know what you're talking about...
     
  18. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Wait, are we talking about vertical banding?

    If that's what you are seeing, then call it vertical banding, not this "scanlines" business... that way we know what you're talking about...
     
  19. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Chris,

    Forget about changing semantics. Also, forget about distinct definitions. How many times do I have to say that "peak-a-boo scanlines" is something that describes a, as Michael says, vertical motion artifact. If I said I was seeing scanlines, I would have said, "I see scanlines". "Peak-a-boo scanlines" is a description of an affect, its DESCRIPTIVE, its not a noun. I'm NOT seeing scanlines like on a CRT. Its possible that the horizontal lines are the actual individual lines of resolution, but its not important.

    Its not vertical banding. I know what that is. If my description is being confused with vertical banding, then I'm really not getting my idea across. I distinctly said it looks like there are horizontal lines that look alot like scanlines and if you know what vertical banding is, then how could you think anyone can mistake a vertical pattern for a horizontal one. Vertical Banding (VB) is fixed pattern noise of a light, almost translucent dirty looking sort of veil over the picture, recognizable in light scenes mostly, or areas of uniform colour, and as its name suggests, it has a pattern of vertical "lines". I see VB that on my AE100 and L200 and its a total non-issue. Its there, but easily ignorable because its faint and seldom noticable enough to distract.

    If anyone has seen the peak-a-boo affect, they'd know. I guess you have to see it understand it. Forget about any of the wording. I'm saying it looks "as though" there are scanlines in the picture, and thats it, period.
    I will say that on higher resolution projectors, it DOES look more like an effect you would name "peak-a-boo screen door" because the effect results in the appearance of what looks like exaggerated screendoor, however, on my AE100 and L200, I only see what looks like "peak-a-boo scanlines". Thats what I see.

    And forget about spec's. I can look those up. I was more interested in peoples feedback, especially those who have, for instance, compared the PT-L300 and PT-L500 for contrast and black levels etc.
     
  20. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Chris,

    Forget about changing semantics. Also, forget about distinct definitions. How many times do I have to say that "peak-a-boo scanlines" is something that describes a, as Michael says, vertical motion artifact. If I said I was seeing scanlines, I would have said, "I see scanlines". "Peak-a-boo scanlines" is a description of an affect, its DESCRIPTIVE, its not a noun. I'm NOT seeing scanlines like on a CRT. Its possible that the horizontal lines are the actual individual lines of resolution, but its not important.

    Its not vertical banding. I know what that is. If my description is being confused with vertical banding, then I'm really not getting my idea across. I distinctly said it looks like there are horizontal lines that look alot like scanlines and if you know what vertical banding is, then how could you think anyone can mistake a vertical pattern for a horizontal one. Vertical Banding (VB) is fixed pattern noise of a light, almost translucent dirty looking sort of veil over the picture, recognizable in light scenes mostly, or areas of uniform colour, and as its name suggests, it has a pattern of vertical "lines". I see VB that on my AE100 and L200 and its a total non-issue. Its there, but easily ignorable because its faint and seldom noticable enough to distract.

    If anyone has seen the peak-a-boo affect, they'd know. I guess you have to see it understand it. Forget about any of the wording. I'm saying it looks "as though" there are scanlines in the picture, and thats it, period.
    I will say that on higher resolution projectors, it DOES look more like an effect you would name "peak-a-boo screen door" because the effect results in the appearance of what looks like exaggerated screendoor, however, on my AE100 and L200, I only see what looks like "peak-a-boo scanlines". Thats what I see.

    And forget about spec's. I can look those up. I was more interested in peoples feedback, especially those who have, for instance, compared the PT-L300 and PT-L500 for contrast and black levels etc.
     

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