A Few Words About A few words about...™ The Big Country -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

It was rumored that Kwai also had stereo mx stems. I accessed them in London in 1989, and found all to be monaural.

The facts are different for many '50s productions.

Recordings for Vertigo taken in London were 3-track stereo, but those in (as I recall) Vienna, were monaural.

Man Who Knew Too Much was all recorded monaural with the exception of the Storm Cloud Contata, which was stereo. When we accessed the original mags, the Contata unit was no longer with the rest of the show.

An interesting era.

 

[Paul Rossen]

The score for "THE BIG COUNTRY" was recorded in 35mm 3 track stereo on stage seven at the Samuel Goldwyn Studios. When I worked on the laserdisc release we were able to access a mono copy of the score for the isolated score track. It came from a college. They also sent a copy of the back label of their quarter inch box which said stereo to mono copy (somewhere I have a copy, if I can find it I'll put it up here). For the composite soundtrack itself, MGM had a 35mm magnetic three track full coat master. Channel One was the mono soundtrack, nothing on channel two, and on channel three a mono music and effects track.

Thank you. I would have loved to hear The Big Country score in true stereo.

 

[ArnoldLayne]

I have just messaged KL about their new upcoming release.

KL replied thusly (Mr Lime dismissed my attempt at humor, responding a bit defensively):
"We've had only a few people ask, so we wouldn't say everyone is asking. We're looking into this to see if the issue was with this release or the previous DVD releases which may've been squeezed. Key people at MGM are looking into it, this was the first time they'd heard about it and the disc has been out for years. As usual we'll respond to this when we're ready to respond and not before."

 

[haineshisway]

Mr. Furmanek has also confirmed that The Big Country was not in stereo. It seems it's a cinematic "urban legend" that has taken on near mythological proportions for a certain segment of fans. Still, no doubt someone will chime in with "I attended the opening day premiere and it was in stereo"

And I think we know who that someone will be and I believe that someone is, of course, the someone who began this urban legend.

 

[haineshisway]

The film was never in stereo. The three-track recording was pretty standard back then and it wasn't because they were doing stereo for the film. It was so they had some control over the mono mix - frequently in these three-track things the strings would all be on one side, rather than the usual layout, and when there were instruments to emphasize they'd be given their own channel. I've released a LOT of CDs from these three-channel things and the orchestra layout is always different and wonky on all of them, because they were never meant to be true stereo.

 

[Paul Rossen]

Uncle. Unlike certain politicians I'll admit when/if I'm wrong. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part but it certainly appears that The Big Country was not released in stereo. That said I'm thankful for the Moross estate working with Screen Archives in making the complete score first available to the general public.

 

[RMajidi]

KL replied thusly (Mr Lime dismissed my attempt at humor, responding a bit defensively):
"We've had only a few people ask, so we wouldn't say everyone is asking. We're looking into this to see if the issue was with this release or the previous DVD releases which may've been squeezed. Key people at MGM are looking into it, this was the first time they'd heard about it and the disc has been out for years. As usual we'll respond to this when we're ready to respond and not before."

Thanks for sharing Kino's response, Chris.

MGM's reported claim that it has not previously been aware of the vertical squeeze/horizontal stretch issue on this disc is astounding. This issue has been a major feature of reviews and posts regarding this release - not only on HTF, but also on other popular film forums and review sites, as well as on Amazon US and Amazon UK customer reviews.

If MGM "key people" are claiming ignorance of this issue, then I believe they are either being insincere, or are so sadly out of touch with their customer base that they've shielded themselves from any feedback whatsoever for their product offering.

 

[RJ992]

Of course studios are out of touch with the consumer base, as is the rest of the home entertainment industry for the most part. I am just thankful that we have companies KL, Shout, Twilight Time, etc
that do care enough to look into it and that hears feedback from customers.

 

[RMajidi]

Of course studios are out of touch with the consumer base, as is the rest of the home entertainment industry for the most part. I am just thankful that we have companies KL, Shout, Twilight Time, etc
that do care enough to look into it and that hears feedback from customers.

I agree about the labels you've listed, but I wouldn't tar all major studios with the same brush - Sony and Warners in particular coming to mind.

I recall RAH stating that Warners (I think it was Mr Feltenstein) is a visitor to this forum and is specifically aware of the Ryan's Daughter thread.

Edit: ...and Mr James Finn of Fox occasionally pops into HTF for a chinwag with members.

Edit 2: ...and for a view of how it should be done, have a glance through The Bishop's Wife thread, where Ms Sherri Bogard of Warners has become something of a folk hero for her customer service.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

KL replied thusly (Mr Lime dismissed my attempt at humor, responding a bit defensively):
"We've had only a few people ask, so we wouldn't say everyone is asking. We're looking into this to see if the issue was with this release or the previous DVD releases which may've been squeezed. Key people at MGM are looking into it, this was the first time they'd heard about it and the disc has been out for years. As usual we'll respond to this when we're ready to respond and not before."

Well, maybe Mr. Harris, as he pointed it out on this website (in this thread obviously), back when they released the first blu-ray of this film, did not share his thoughts on it beyond what he wrote here. So, maybe MGM really had no idea about it.

Also based on the fact that Mr. Harris repeats a couple of times that he thinks replacement discs will be issued for the film indicates he thinks it he, at least, thinks it is a fixable issue and that it will get done.

So, if Kino are the guys that end up notifying MGM about it and MGM fixes the problem for the new Kino release then Kino are the heroes in this case because they have solved the problem and brought us a definitive blu-ray release of The Big Country.

I understand where Mr. Lime is coming from because he really can't comment on an issue Kino did not create and one which they do not yet know if it will be resolved. Hopefully, due to their attention to the matter it will be and maybe they can point to the comments Robert Harris made to assist in the matter. After all Mr. Harris is known to have an eye for this kind of work.

 

[AnthonyClarke]

It is truly astonishing that MGM did not know of this anamorphic 'stretch problem
They certainly have no excuse now for not rectifying it for this new issue. We watch with interest ...... such a shame I can't watch the present Blu ray at all; the stretch issue is to me far more important than the 'mono or stereo' audio issue!

 

[OliverK]

To fix that stretch should be easy and depending on the available source material other advances in technology would permit a release that is also superior in other areas.

 

[deepscan]

As I might have mentioned elsewhere, it is now technically possible to create true stereo out of a mono soundtrack, if that is the only sound element available for THE BIG COUNTRY. If indeed all we have is the mono elements (preferably the mono stems, music, dialogue and sound effects), recreating it for stereo shoud be no problem.

This system is called DES Stereo (or Digitally Extracted Spectral Stereo). There have been many attempts by Internet savvy people to create stereo out of mono versions of songs out of the '50s and '60s, but the first official and real attempt at this was done in Ireland by a guy named Derry Fitzgerald. The Beach Boys were planning to reissue their back catalog, and wanted to create both stereo and mono versions of their seminal albums. "Good Vibrations", their signature hit, had only existed in mono as the original multi tracks were either erased or gone missing, although many fans have attempted their own stereo recreations of the track. So Fitzgerald used digital technology and software to extract certain frequencies and from that he was able to recreate separate stems for the song so that "Vibrations" can be rebuilt in true stereo. When I heard this for the first time, it was stunning. Because of this, we are now seeing true stereo re-renderings of classic songs from the early rock era, thanks to the work of Eric Records' compilation CDs.

Having said that, the same can be done for THE BIG COUNTRY with the right software and budget. I would not take MGM to task on it because they really have brought out proper restored versions of what remains in their library (look at "Mad World" and the excellent job Robert Harris did with it). HAWAII's soundtrack can be done this way too if MGM sets their mind to it. Somewhere the Mirisch family has that remaining print of the roadshow version that can be re-rendered in HD quality.

Anyway, if THE BIG COUNTRY can be re-rendered in true stereo, then the mythical 70MM stereo print can become a reality at last. Take note, MisterLime, RAH, and any fan who longs to see a proper release of this western.

P.S. I did see parts of this on TCM some time back, and it is an example of an American western done with gusto.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

As our research with documented source materials has now shown, THE BIG COUNTRY was never released in stereo or 70mm.

I can see the point of recreating a lost stereo track for a film that was released in three-channel stereophonic sound and is now lost (as we have just done with THOSE REDHEADS FROM SEATTLE - http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/those-redheads-from-seattle) but what's the point of doing it for a film that was released in mono?

 

[Douglas R]

I don't see how stereo created from a mono source, no matter how good, can ever be described as "true" stereo.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

Agreed but the spectral separation for music has come a LONG way. Check out this mono track converted to stereo:



In the case of REDHEADS, we panned the dialogue and sound effects exactly the way it would have been done in 1953. The film was recorded on-set with one microphone and the stereo panning was done in post.

 

[Randy Korstick]

I don't see how stereo created from a mono source, no matter how good, can ever be described as "true" stereo.

Agreed I never care for fake stereo mixes. Since this is a mono film I prefer the resources spent on a high quality mono mix and not on a fake stereo mix.

 

[deepscan]

So I guess the verdict then....Not Guilty by existing elements. I still think the mythical 70mm print is either in hiding or just an urban legend.

 

[Jim*Tod]

I watched the blu ray last night and while I am not questioning Mr. Harris or any of the other experts here, I did not notice any stretching in the image. I do hope a corrected version will emerge one day so I can see it properly. This time around I was very impressed by the way the many long shots were handled, great use of the higher resolution of the Technirama process. Tiny horsemen are dwarfed by the vast countryside... some of the images reminded me of LAWRENCE OF ARABIA.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

Here are some comments on the new REDHEAD mix:

http://www.bigscreenclassics.com/2017/04/preview-those-redheads-from-seattle-3-d.html

"The Blu-ray also features a newly-created lossless DTS-MA 3.0 reconstruction of the original three channel (left-center-right) stereophonic soundtrack plus, in a move which makes my purist heart happy, it also contains the original mono track in lossless form. Bob tells me that the original three channel sound was lost years ago, so audio engineer Eckhard Büttner took the original music and sound elements and was able to create a convincing stereo sound field from them, including some directional dialogue, The result is terrific, even in critical listening mode I wouldn't have guessed it wasn't the original stereo. There is none of that "electronically reprocessed for stereo" sound effect that we all hated on records from the 50s and 60s, nor did they try to create a modern booming 5.1 sound mix. What's there is natural-sounding to the era of the film's creation. This is an outstanding 1950s film soundtrack."

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...from-seattle-the-htf-3d-addict-review.352425/

"More pronounced than the 3D presentation itself is the film's soundtrack. 3-D Film Archive restorationist Bob Furmanek searched globally for film's original 3-channel magnetic soundtrack. Alas, it was never found. However, sound specialist Eckhard Büttner performed a spectral extraction to restore the original sound elements, the result of which provides for an amazing auditory experience. The left, right, and main channels do an amazing job of creating specific sonic placement. As actors move across the viewing area, the sound moves with them. As someone sitting dead center in the listening area, it's an astonishing experience -- certainly a cut above standard stereo separation. For those that prefer, the original mono soundtrack is included in lossless audio."

With respect to THE BIG COUNTRY, until someone provides evidence of either a 70mm print or stereophonic audio from documented, primary source materials (not a personal five decades old memory) I do not believe it was available in that format.